Roof Crack Help / Advice needed

[BruceM]

You’ve done well to walk away.

 

I think that if you’re looking to purchase an older A Class then I suggest you first give careful consideration to the manufacturer and focus in on the ones that have a reputation for longevity. You’re quite right that now is not an ideal time to buy but then you may hit lucky so keep monitoring the market.

 

I went through your process a few years ago and concluded that the older German built motorhomes had a reputation for high build quality and reliability. Consequently I focussed in on Hymer and ended up purchasing a 2003 German Dethleffs – Dethleffs of course are now part of Hymer group.

 

I purchased privately out of preference (Ebay). I like to meet the previous owner so I can gauge how the van may have been treated, something a service history is unlikely to reveal.

 

My van now has only 79,000 miles on the clock so a healthy average of approaching 5,000 miles per year (excluding lockdown) and the base unit has performed faultlessly. As Brian pointed out, the base units are designed for very high mileages and rough treatment so would be expected to last a long time in a motorhoming environment if well looked after.

 

During ownership I’ve spent about about £1,500 on upgrading or wear and tear (upgraded solar, new batteries, new tyres, cam belt replacement, habitation cosmetics) but it’s worth bearing in mind that I’m a competent DIYer so some of the items were not third partied.

 

The point I’m making is that an older van can be both excellent value for money and reliable and if you can avoid using a dealership you have the potential to avoid their makeup. But choose the manufacturer carefully and budget to spend some money on it after purchase.

 

[davidmac]

Hi Ive just had a quick look on auto trader , motorhomes £17000-£22500. Two A class listed, a Hymer E510 £18000 1997 Hymers were well built at that time, the other a Mirage 5000 , 2004 at £22000. I had an AutoSleeper Luxor which is a Mirage 6000 with a different badge, very well made motorhome

Regards David

[Derek Uzzell]

If this is the AutoTrader Hymer E510 advert

 

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/motorhome-details/202103290733026?advertising-location=at_motorhomes

 

the motorhome is left-hand-drive.

 

(Both it and the Mirage 5000 have ‘advisories' on their most recent MOT history - though that’s not particularly surprising for vehicles of that age.)

[rajohno]

Do not be afraid of older vehicles, However have a mechanical inspection done before purchase, someone like the AA are reliable. with a report you can the asses if the saving on buying an older vehicle will be soaked up on repairs (if any) and parts. Also consider the seller having the MH habitation checked and gas certified before purchase.

I bought a 1995 MH with the expectation of having work done on both mechanical's and habitation, however the cost has been minimal, having replaced 2 cassette blinds and a roof light and habitation battery, set of spark plugs (its a petrol) and new anti-roll-bar drop links and bushes, anything else I have done was not essential but just brought up to a nicer living standard.

 

I paid £5200 for the MH bought privately from someone wanting it off his drive (His wife didn't like it apparently)with 44,000 miles on the clock, the previous owner had the MH fully serviced including a cambelt change and the above essentials costing about £280 all together (did the work myself so no labour charges). total cost was still less than £6000 all in (ins ved etc)in the first year.

 

Good luck in your search, I hope you find what you are looking for.

[Brian Kirby]

Paul.S - 2021-04-05 6:04 PM

Hi Brian,

Thank you for taking the time to provide such a detailed response. Definitely lots of food for thought.

Out of interest and given the obvious depth of knowledge you have, what kind of budget do you think is needed to buy something that is likely to require less maintenance. Whats age do you think we should be considering and what sort of mileage?

We were initially looking for something more expensive but got put off by the electric vehicle conundrum. While I understand you will still be able to trade diesel vans after 2030, there is the concern about the impact on value and also what the government could do with tax to get them off the roads.

Our £20k budget was based on a figure that we felt we would need no return on and was hoping it would give is circa 7 years motorhoming. If we go for something more expensive we would need a return to fit in with our retirement plan; hence our dilemma. I never though it would be maintenance free, but your response has really made me think.

I guess we are buying at the worst possible time with Covid stay-cations where it appears that everyone is after a caravan or motorhome to facilitate self contained holidays.

Further thoughts from you and everyone else would be very much appreciated.

kind regards

Thank you for your kind words, Paul - but I'm afraid you credit me with far too much knowledge! :-) All I know is what I've picked up from owning motorhomes since 2005. My observations are generalised, and I have no useful knowledge of vans before 2005, saving that those much earlier than that date had certain problems that I think make them higher risk. I think I can best identify the potential problems, apart from the construction techniques used (which have changed over time), as follows.

 

By far the most popular base vehicle has been the Fiat Ducato. It is therefore more likely that what you will find on the market will be Fiat based. Its SEVEL siblings, Peugeot Boxer and Citroen Relay, are made in the same factory in Italy, but have PSA power trains in lieu of Fiat (in fact, the Fiat engines are Iveco units, described to me by a French dealer from whom we hired a van before purchase, as a "proper little truck engine"). The PSA engines are modified car engines and some consider them inferior for that reason. My experience is limited to three Fiat based vans (Burstner, Hymer, and Knaus) and one Ford Transit based (Hobby). I cannot therefore comment at all on the Renault Master or Mercedes Sprinter bases, or the odd, rather rare, VW Crafter base (basically the same as the Sprinter but with VW mechanicals).

 

As previously, they are all designed for high mileages by uncaring drivers, and to spend their time on the road and not in the workshop. I think the best overall comment is that they are all tough and reliable - providing they are serviced as stipulated - but they are all machines so can, and do, go wrong. The fault with the Fiats that seems to have dogged them consistently until the introduction of the X290 (current) iteration, is water ingress into the engine bay. This has painfully slowly been addressed at each facelift etc, but I don't think has ever been fully eradicated. The simple truth is that for a commercial vehicle a bit of water is soon evaporated off, whereas for a motorhome it tends to sit and accumulate. Personal view, but I'd avoid anything before the 2002 "facelift" or with the 2.0 JTD engine. Both the 2.3 and 2.8 JTD engines should be fine (servicing caveat!), but the 2.8 is a bit of a boozer! For gearboxes, I know the 2002 facelifted base we had with our first van had a "proper" 5 speed box, but am unclear whether this box came in with the facelift, or at some other time. The point, I think, is to avoid anything with the older, modified 4 speed box I referred to in my previous post. I also have great reservations over the Fiat Comfortmatic gearboxes with which the advantages seem to me outweighed by their added complexity and patchy performance in automatic mode. The Hymer had this box.

 

I don't think mileage should be a concern in and of itself. Most vans do piddling mileages and are more likely to suffer idle van syndrome that the ravages of high mileages. Dealers nearly faint when confronted with anything averaging over 5,000 miles/year as "high mileage" (well, they have to have something to beat down the trade in price! :-)). Do a couple of searches on this forum for clutch judder, and rusty junction, and pay particular attention to posts from "euroserv" (Nick Fisher) as he had great knowledge of the Fiat vans. A wider appreciation of the various base vehicles might be obtained from Martin Watts, who does the Vintage Vans piece in MMM. I believe you may be able to contact him through the MMM. Perhaps try ringing Warners?

 

To me, by far the biggest risk area is water ingress through coachbuilt body shells. Generally, but not exclusively, the Hymer group vans should be a fairly safe bet. Niesman Bischoff apparently developed the body jointing system currently in use on many, is not all, of the Hymer branded, as well as N+B branded, vans and, so far as I'm aware, this is not generally problematic. In fact, I think it is a master class on how to stick motorhome bodies together. Comments from others would be helpful here. I don't know when this technique was developed, or how widely it has been adopted across the group. It might be worth looking at a recent Hymer van to see for yourself and, if you can get the dealer to show you, have a close look at how the roof panels are jointed onto the side wall, cab, and rear, panels without creating water traps to attract standing water. Further advantage: almost no timber used with none in vulnerable locations. The floors of the vans are also underdrawn with GRP sheeting, so are not prone to rot on the underside and especially around the wheel arches as is the case with many other, especially older, vans.

 

So far as coachbuilt vans (including A class vans) are concerned, assembly generally involves attaching the floor to the chassis, then attaching all the fixed furniture to the floor, then installing the appliances, water pipes, electrics etc, then attaching the external walls, then the rear wall, and finally the roof and any overcab/cab end moulding to these. For this reason, relatively simple things, like removing a fridge, can become exercises only a contortionist of masochist would undertake - unless you want to take the external wall out and do the reverse of what was done in the factory! So, any hint that a major appliance may be suspect should be viewed with great suspicion. Some will be straightforward, but others will prove at the very least highly time consuming.

 

My final, general, thought is this. All the internal equipment is made by the likes of Dometic, Truma, Thetford etc and is reasonably reliable and replaceable (albeit at a price!). The internal fixed furniture is almost invariably photo-veneer faced MDF with plastic lippings, and the faux veneer patterns are changed almost annually for cosmetic reasons so any damage will be very difficult to eradicate. What was deemed fashionable a few years back is unlikely to be available to replace a locker door, for example, and some of the photo veneer is very easily damaged by removing anything stuck to the the surface. Some tapes stick so well the photo-veneer begins peeling from its base before the tape lets go of the photo-veneer! So, what may appear a minor surface blemish may be a pig to remedy - eyes well peeled! The rest, such as the upholstery, or internal soft furnishings (curtains etc) can be replaced by a handful of specialists at not excessive cost, but as matching fabrics are unlikely to be available, you'll probably need to do a full scale makeover to maintain harmony.

 

Last but not least, most shower trays are plastic of some sort, and if not fully supported are prone to crack and hence leak. As the shower tray is one of the first items to be installed, rectification by replacement is liable to involve extensive dismantling of shower room walls to free the tray. So, check the tray!!

 

That's erected the dartboard. Now lets see who turns up with the darts! :-D But, realistically, if a van is on a sound base and has good service and MoT history, looks cared for inside and out, and smells fresh when entered, it should be good. Realism just dictates that just like us, the older it is, the greater the scope for time to have taken its toll, so the greater the risk that something will fail once you've bought it. In relative terms, vans are a lot more fragile than houses, and things do break and wear out, especially in the hands of heavy, or unwittingly heavy handed, owners. Hope this helps a bit.

[Paul.S]

Thanks Brian and to everyone else who has commented.

 

Excellent advice and details provided by you all which makes me much more informed in my quest to find this elusive motorhome.

 

Any further contributions would be really welcome. Also, is anyone aware of a schedule of typical pre covid price lists for used motorhomes. I have heard stories of people buying motorhomes 6 years ago, putting 20 to 30 thousand miles on them and selling them now for exactly the same price they paid. Just want to gauge how much over the odds I am paying at this time and if it would be worth waiting for foreign holidays to open back up.

 

kind regards

 

Paul

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Foer the same price, maybe, but don't for get the 6 years of price inflation that will have taken place over those 6 years! Also, don't forget that the £ € rate will have fluctuated quite widely over a 6 year period, and even the prices of UK produced vans are affected by exchange rates as almost everything that makes up the production cost (except labour, land, and taxes) is imported. It is true that the rate of depreciation on motorhomes is generally slower after the first few years than for cars, but anything mechanical depreciates over time.

 

Owning, running, and using, a motorhome is a costly decision. The best overall bet in terms of value for money is probably something just over three years old. The first whack of depreciation should by then have taken place, the rate will be settling down, and the vehicle should still have some warranty cover (though not the base) and will have fairly new equipment that shouldn't land you with largish, unexpected, bills for a few years yet.

 

I think the all electric motorhome, and how that will impact prices, is way into the future. The early runners are bound to be costly, if for no other reason than the cost (in today's terms) of the batteries. Then they will need charging facilities at stopping places, which will have to be installed, meaning in many cases installation from new, requiring possibly enhanced supplies, the cost of which will need to be recouped by someone.

 

One thing you haven't said is where you intend using the van. UK or abroad? For how long might you go?

[pepe63xnotuse]

Morning Paul.

 

Purely "anecdotal" but from our periodic thumbing through of the likes of ebay, Autotrader etc, it does "appear" that what would've been 15-19k vans, are now sitting at 20-24k -ish...?

 

As for your point about people selling a van and getting what they paid for it several years earlier..

Well, if the van has been bought "right" and it sits in a "sort after" price bracket (as in, reasonable/"doable" outlay for a decent first van), then even without the current "staycation" factor, getting the bulk of your "stake fee" back isn't that unusual really...

(I know we did when we swapped/sold our vans).

 

I would say, try not to restrict yourself too much, when it comes the the vans you rule in and/or out.

It can be hard enough choosing (and then finding!) the correct van and layout as it is...

Good luck :-D

(edit- sorry Brian, I crossed your post )

[Paul.S]

Use will be mainly in the UK but we may venture over seas as (if) confidence grows. We envisage frequent short breaks mainly.

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

pepe63 - 2021-04-07 10:35 AM

Morning Paul.

Purely "anecdotal" but from our periodic thumbing through of the likes of ebay, Autotrader etc, it does "appear" that what would've been 15-19k vans, are now sitting at 20-24k -ish...?

As for your point about people selling a van and getting what they paid for it several years earlier..

Well, if the van has been bought "right" and it sits in a "sort after" price bracket (as in, reasonable/"doable" outlay for a decent first van), then even without the current "staycation" factor, getting the bulk of your "stake fee" back isn't that unusual really...

(I know we did when we swapped/sold our vans).

I would say, try not to restrict yourself too much, when it comes the the vans you rule in and/or out.

It can be hard enough choosing (and then finding!) the correct van and layout as it is...

Good luck :-D

(edit- sorry Brian, I crossed your post )

Great minds, Pepe?? :-D

[Brian Kirby]

Paul.S - 2021-04-07 10:45 AM

Use will be mainly in the UK but we may venture over seas as (if) confidence grows. We envisage frequent short breaks mainly.

Using camp sites, or other? :-) Short breaks being weekends, a week or two max, or longer? Not nosy, Paul, just trying to get a picture.

[Paul.S]

Camp sites for weekends through summer months and probably one or two longer breaks (two weeks max) when venture further afield. That said, with my new working arrangements being from home, if we can get internet connection there is nothing really to stop us staying even longer term on some journeys.

[Derek Uzzell]

This April 2021 (and earlier) Glass’s articles may be of interest

 

https://glass.co.uk/news/uk/motorcaravan-market-update-april-2021/

[Brian Kirby]

Paul.S - 2021-04-07 4:31 PM

Camp sites for weekends through summer months and probably one or two longer breaks (two weeks max) when venture further afield. That said, with my new working arrangements being from home, if we can get internet connection there is nothing really to stop us staying even longer term on some journeys.

Then, if there are just two of you, I think you should find 6.0 metres length fine, with a wide variety of makes and layouts to choose from. Width, however, IMO, is a bit more complicated.

 

The "standard" motorhome body runs at about 2.3M wide, with a few at 2.35. These are fine if using mostly main roads, although the overall width (including the outside mirrors) can leave the mirrors vulnerable to being bashed. We tend to avoid main roads as much as possible, and I found our first van, at 2.3M wide, a bit of an encumbrance once onto minor roads.

 

So, our next van was 2.05M wide, which was much more comfortable. All, except the Hymer, have been 6.0M long. The Hymer was 6.75M long, but was 2.1M wide, so reasonably manageable.

 

Present van is 2.05M wide x 6M long, and being a PVC, is the easiest drive of the lot. Its drawback in layout terms is that the sliding side door takes away a fair chunk of potentially usable wall space, and the two hinged rear doors can be a bit inconvenient when retrieving something from the rear on a wet, windy, night! :-) Also, the fact that it is a converted van means the bodyshell has "tumble-homes" at roof and floor level, which take away some otherwise useful storage space. However, all that said, we are fine in it van for weeks away.

 

As with everything, it is a compromise. Big van = a lot more internal space, but its greater bulk and length restrict manoeuvrability at times and, in some cases, the places you can get to (e.g. weight, width, and height restrictions)

 

Spacious lounges tend to figure large in UK made vans (often achieved by converting lounge seating to beds and vice versa), as do ovens and grills (It's a climate thing! :-)) , whereas continental vans more often centre the layout on a forward dinette and just a hob (although many put ovens into vans destined for the UK market - not always to great advantage, it has to be said!).

 

I think the best advice, before buying, is to hire something close to the sort of layout you think will suit you for maybe a week, and use that time to really evaluate how well it works for you, both on the road and as accommodation. You may then review/change your priorities at much less cost than by buying and then deciding you don't like what you bought! In similar vein, if you find you enjoy the whole package, be prepared to begin thinking about going further, and for longer - when available (and usable!) storage space is likely to come to the fore as a consideration.

 

I still reckon about 6M should be workable, even for extended trips (we often do 10+ weeks in spring) but the way internal space is used becomes more critical than for long weekends (think bedding and outerwear as your trips extend to cover not just latitude, but also seasons, and possibly altitude as well. You'll get there, but don't rush it!

[Derek Uzzell]

Hobby and Hymer both marketed slim “Van” coachbuilt low profile models in the early-ish 2000s and Hymer built narrow “Exsis” A-class models on Ford Transit or Fiat Ducato chassis.

 

https://www.practicalmotorhome.com/advice/used-van-buyer-hymer-exsis-i-2009-present

 

The norm for the length of coachbuilt motorhomes has increased over the last 20 years, but around-6m-long models are still offered including the occasional A-class design.

 

https://www.practicalmotorhome.com/advice/best-motorhomes-under-6m

 

In the past ‘short’ A-class motorhomes were fairly common and a 2002 “Which Motorcaravan” listing showed models close to 6m-long being made by Hymer, Knaus, N+B, Weinsberg, Eura Mobil, Machzone, Marquis(Mirage), Pilote, and Rapido.

 

This Out&AboutLive article relates to current A-class models, but the design pros and cons (eg. cost of replacement windscreen) will generally apply to older vehicles.

 

https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/motorhomes/buyers-guide-advice/motorhomes/details/a-class-motorhomes/16

 

I notice that a 2002 Hymer Starline 640 is advertised for £19,000 in the article’s For Sale section

 

https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/motorhomes/for-sale/motorhomes/hymer-starline-640/1030530

 

but I believe the length of that model was 6.7m.

[Paul.S]

Thanks again,

 

The details you are providing really are appreciated.

 

Derek - I contacted the guy about the Hymer. I am number 3 in the queue to view so doubt it will get down to me. Good spot though. Oddly, I can see it via your link, but not when searching on the website. Is there a way to set private sellers only? I can only seem to view Trade offers?

 

kind regards

 

Paul