Remapping

[alanedwin]

Hello,

What’s the technical difference between a 2.3, 140 Ducato and a 2.3 160 or 180? Is it just down to software, is the clutch etc different or the brakes?

What I really mean of course is if I get mine remapped what do I need to look out for apart from warranty issues obviously?

Alan

[Brian Kirby]

I note your van is 2021, so presumably has few miles on the clock at present? I reckon these engines need about 20K miles before they come on song, so if your present perception is that it lacks power, and you're wanting to remap for that reason, it may be worth getting a good few more miles under its tyres before taking the plunge.

[alanedwin]

Brian,

Yes it’s very tight at the moment as it only has 50 miles on it!. I was thinking about when it’s out of warranty because we intend to keep this one for a long time.

As you say I will wait and see but I was just curious as to the actual differences between the models.

Alan

[laimeduck]

Brian Kirby - 2021-06-26 10:26 PM

 

I note your van is 2021, so presumably has few miles on the cock at present? I reckon these engines need about 20K miles before they come on song, so if your present perception is that it lacks power, and you're wanting to remap for that reason, it may be worth getting a good few more miles under its tyres before taking the plunge.

Oooh what a Cockledoodledoo Brian! Tee Hee!

[Derek Uzzell]

This 2019 forum thread discussed Ducato motor remapping.

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/engine-re-mapping/51342/

 

In it I said "Where recent Ducatos are concerned there are significant ‘mechanical' differences between the 2.3litre 150 and 180 powerplants, and remapping a 150 motor to provide similar bhp/torque figures to a 180 won’t magically convert a 150 into a ‘genuine’ 180.”

 

I can’t recall off-hand what all the differences were, though I do know that the 180 had a different specification crankshaft to the (then) 130 and 150 motors. The different specification was reflected in the ‘upgrade’ cost that was not huge for opting for a 150 motor instead of a 130, but much more expensive for opting for a 180 motor rather than a 130. (I think the price ‘hike’ is similar for the current 140, 160 and 180 powerplants.)

 

As Brian has said, some ‘running in’ will be needed. My 2015 Ducato-based Rapido (with 150 motor) was quite sprightly from brand new, but its performance definitely improved after 5000 miles had been covered.

 

[weldted]

Getting miles on the clock. Our 2019 Burstner 4000kg Fiat 2.3 150 auto now at 10800 miles definitely more responsive, although mpg has increased a bit. This is probably being a bit gentle at first. Still it’s having a nice rest, been sorn since Jan first.

[alanedwin]

Thanks everyone.

[Derek Uzzell]

Derek Uzzell - 2021-06-27 8:47 AM

 

...(I think the price ‘hike’ is similar for the current 140, 160 and 180 powerplants.)...

These links may be of interest

 

https://www.fiatprofessional.com/uk/ducato-2021/van

 

https://www.fiatprofessional.com/uk/commercial-vehicles-pricelist

 

The links relate to the very latest incarnation of Ducato with smaller-capacity motors (2184cc rather than the historic 2287cc) and the 2nd link allows .pdf files to be downloaded showing UK price lists. The price difference between 140 and 160 motors is around £900 and between 140 and 180 motors around £2000. (However - where motorhomes are concerned - Ducato ‘commercial’ price lists often have little relationship to the elevated prices asked by motorhome manufacturers for engine upgrades or an enhanced technical specification. And a commercial fleet buyer may also be expected to be able to negotiate a substantial discount.)

 

Regarding engine remapping, there were two enquiries about this in the “Tech help!” section (Pages 120/121) of the July 2021 issue of MMM Magazine, with a comprehensive response by Nick Fisher. Nick highlighted that the providers of software remapping products or ‘tuning boxes’ make no mention of the potential effect of such things on the emissions-level of a motor prior to it being remapped. (Realistically, with diesel-fuelled motor design increasingly focusing on emissions control, the greater the likelihood that remapping/‘tuning’ will impact negatively/unpredictably on a motor’s behaviour.) Nick said that he planned to approach suppliers of remapping/‘tuning’ devices for their comments “..so that we can produce a more in-depth guide in the magazine in the coming months”.

[mikefitz]

Regarding the braking system, there is unlikely to be any change. Both the light chassis,standard wheels 15 inch, and the heavy, Maxi, chassis 16inch wheels (with the bigger diameter disks) already use all the available space the wheel size allows.

 

The biggest issue regarding remapping the low power engines is they are fitted with a different manual gearbox to the high power engines. This box is already running near maximum design torque and thus any remapping will impact on reliability. Its rumored that Fiat have reduced the torque output of the stock engine from the quoted value to reduce warranty claims on gearbox failures.

 

Mike

 

[Robinhood]

mikefitz - 2021-06-28 9:22 AM

 

The biggest issue regarding remapping the low power engines is they are fitted with a different manual gearbox to the high power engines.

 

Mike

I can't find the details for the current gearbox, but this seems likely as the previous 150 had a different box to the 130, the torque output exceeding the limit for that fitted in the lower powered versions.

 

And, in the previous engine range, variable-vane turbos came in somewhere up the power spectrum, but Fiat info for the latest range implies they are now fitted to all.

[Derek Uzzell]

mikefitz - 2021-06-28 9:22 AM

 

...The biggest issue regarding remapping the low power engines is they are fitted with a different manual gearbox to the high power engines. This box is already running near maximum design torque and thus any remapping will impact on reliability. Its rumored that Fiat have reduced the torque output of the stock engine from the quoted value to reduce warranty claims on gearbox failures.

 

Mike

In late-2014, when I was in the process of replacing my 2005 Ford-based Hobby motorhome with a Ducato X290-based Rapido I was aware that the the Ducato’s 2.3litre 150 powerplant had a different design turbocharger to that of the 2.3litre 130 motor and (being power-hungry by inclination) I opted for the 150 motor. When visiting the NEC motorhome show at that time and mentioning to a Fiat technical rep that I was getting a Ducato with the 150 engine, he said “A good choice, as that comes with a much better gearbox”.

 

Do you know if that would still be the case where the 140, 160 and 180 2.3litre motors are concerned? Basically, are the 160 and 180 motors paired with a manual gearbox that is ‘tougher’ than that used with the 140 powerplant?

 

Evidently variable-geometry turbochargers were fitted to all 2.3litre powerplants when the Euro 6D-Temp range was introduced in 2019.

 

https://www.fiatcamper.com/en/news/latest-2019

[Tracker]

I bought a 'plug in' remapping device some years ago to try and give a 2.0 hdi in a heavy coachbuilt a bit more grunt.

It had three settings - more bhp - normal (no alterations) - more torque - and it did provide a bit more torque and it did certainly make the engine more flexible and smoother and pleasant to drive at low and mid range revs. Being a plug in it was easy to fit and removable.

Don't know about more bhp as I never drove the van flat out - who does - but it climbed long gradients better?

It did not appear to have much effect on mpg but as you don't ever get owt fer nowt if you use more power you will use more fuel - simples!

I subsequently had it remapped and replugged to fit a 2.3 Ducato and a then a 2.2 hdi Boxer all with similar results.

In my experience if you want more power buy a van with a more powerful engine but for us at least most modern vans are perfectly adequate once you accept that a Motorhome requires a different and more laid back driving style than a car.

Would I do it again? Probably not - just don't buy a big van with a small engine!

[curdle]

As an alternative you could consider fitting a Steinbauer unit. It offers up to 20% more power and torque and is supplied with a 3 year warranty. I fitted one to a Mercedes Sprinter base and the change in performance was significant especially in mountainous terrain. The automatic gear change is way smoother too.

[Brian Kirby]

laimeduck - 2021-06-27 8:18 AM

Brian Kirby - 2021-06-26 10:26 PM

I note your van is 2021, so presumably has few miles on the cock at present? I reckon these engines need about 20K miles before they come on song, so if your present perception is that it lacks power, and you're wanting to remap for that reason, it may be worth getting a good few more miles under its tyres before taking the plunge.

Oooh what a Cockledoodledoo Brian! Tee Hee!

Touché! :-D Dangerous things, keypads!

[Tracker]

It maybe worth adding that any form of engine tuning only works properly when the engine is fully run in and has no faults.

It will not cover up any existing shortcomings and great care should be taken as far as warranties are concerned because they will all try hard not to cover you whatever the issue, however unrelated, if they learn about any form of tuning.

One of the reasons I went for an easily removable plug in rather than remapping the existing ECU.

[Derek Uzzell]

curdle - 2021-06-28 12:14 PM

 

As an alternative you could consider fitting a Steinbauer unit. It offers up to 20% more power and torque and is supplied with a 3 year warranty. I fitted one to a Mercedes Sprinter base and the change in performance was significant especially in mountainous terrain. The automatic gear change is way smoother too.

Details of the Steinbauer tuning system suitable for a Fiat Ducato 2.3L MultiJet II 140 EUR6d-Temp motor are provided here

 

https://www.steinbauer.cc/gb/products/motorhomes/fiat/ducato/23l-multijet-ii-140-eur6d-temp-104kw__5nx/d8U/

 

https://www.steinbauer.cc/media/datasheets/steinbauer-datasheet-fiat-ducato-23l-multijet-ii-140-eur6d-temp-139-bhp.pdf

 

A UK price is not quoted, but from what I said in this December 2019 thread I’d expect the current cost to be around £800.

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Steinbauer-Power-Module/53893/

 

In the MMM Magazine article I mentioned earlier, Nick Fisher said

 

“On a broader note, I really would urge buyers of new motorhomes to consider going for a litle more power than they may expect to need. The motorhome will be laden to close to its maximum weight for the majority of the time and to increase the power will increase its longevity and provide a more relaxed driving experience.”

 

If deliberately choosing (say) the Ducato 160 motor for a new motorhome instead of the 140 would cost around £900 (and that might also include a higher specification gearbox), opting for the 140 motor and later paying around £800 for the Steinbauer system (with the original gearbox being retained, of course) would be a questionable thing to do. Choosing the 160 motor would not impact on the Fiat warranty and insurance providers would be unconcerned. Choosing the 140 motor and then ’tuning’ it would potentially invalidate the Fiat warranty and insurance providers would need to be told about the power increase.

 

Although a ’tuning box’ is usually straightforward to fit and remove, remapping - where the vehicle’s original engine management software is replaced - is a trickier proposition. It’s commonplace nowadays for software revisions to be installed during a service and there’s no guarantee that the remapping software and the vehicle manufacturer’s own software won’t conflict.