fripp Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 Is there a way to re-program the the warning on the Ducato so that it does not complain if low power T20 LED bulbs are fitted in the DRL bulb locations. Or is the only workaround to fit a 50W 8 ohm resistor in parallel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 This 2017 forum discussion should be of interest https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Daylight-Running-Lights/47400/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinM50 Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 I never did get round to changing the DRL's - been a bit busy (lol) (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeamRienza Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 I replaced the bulbs on my 2016 Ducato with Leds. I regularly buy bulbs and wipers from autobulbsdirect.co.uk They do a range called twenty20 which are canbus compliant. I have changed both daylight running and headlight (low beam) without any problems. Example. https://www.autobulbsdirect.co.uk/led-drl-bulbs/ Davy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fripp Posted October 12, 2021 Author Share Posted October 12, 2021 Looks like it is not possible unless you fit a resistor or a bulb with a resistor in then. I think I will stick with the incandescent ones. Thanks for the feedback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 These should be the appropriate LED DRL bulbs from the supplier Davy mentioned https://www.autobulbsdirect.co.uk/7443-twenty20-cree-led-12v-580-canbus-wedge-bulb.html A Ducato X290’s headlamp has H7 55W halogen bulbs for main and dipped beams and replacement LED bulbs are advertised here https://www.autobulbsdirect.co.uk/h7-led-headlight-bulbs/ Davy should be able to confirm which LED bulbs he chose to fit and whether they produced any dashboard warning lights. It’s perhaps worth highlighting that fitting a LED bulb to a headlamp that originally had halogen bulbs invites an MOT failure Existing halogen headlamp units on vehicles first used on or after 1 April 1986 must not be converted to be used with high intensity discharge (HID) or light emitting diode (LED) bulbs. If such a conversion has been done, you must fail the headlamp for light source and lamp not compatible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeamRienza Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 My 2016 Ducato is a Hymer A class with a headlight unit designed specifically for this series of vehicle by Hella. There have been many suffering from shattered glass, thought to be either distortion in the unit mounting causing stress or excessive heat from the DRLs. A replacement unit being over £1000. In order to rule out the overheating potential, I replaced mine with these, https://www.autobulbsdirect.co.uk/382-twenty20-cree-led-12v-p21w-canbus-bayonet-bulb.html I also replaced the headlight bulbs with these, https://www.autobulbsdirect.co.uk/h8-9-11-16-twenty20-compact-led-headlight-bulbs-pair.html I don’t usually drive at night, and due to the suspension of the MOT system in N. Ireland (which is government run) because of Covid, my van has not been tested yet with the headlights changed. It was interesting to note when swopping the DRLs that the bulb holders showed quite definite heat discolouration. Davy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 Thanks for the update - I’d overlooked where you were based and that you owned a Hymer A-class - and I can now understand why you’d want to keep the bulb-heat down. I don’t know what ‘style’ of motorhome fripp has (I believe it’s a Carado model) so I can’t guess at what lights/bulbs it might have. https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/-IDENTIFYING-YOUR-MOTORHOME-/54713/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fripp Posted October 13, 2021 Author Share Posted October 13, 2021 Yep I am a standard Ducato Cab. Does anybody know what amperage is needed to remove the ECU warning. Is the full 21W, 1.75A needed for the DRL or will less do the trick? I don't really fancy pushing nearly 2 Amps through a resistor just to stop the warning. The DRL bulb is a 21/5W dual wattage bulb. Will 5W stop the warning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 14, 2021 Share Posted October 14, 2021 It’s most unlikely any forum member will be able to give you a firm answer to your ‘resistor amperage’ enquiry. Resistor ‘fix’ products were mentioned in the forum discussion I provided a link to in my 1st posting above, and presumably a 21W ‘kit’ would be required to address potential CANBUS warning-light problems if you swapped the standard W21/5W halogen DRL bulb for a LED equivalent. If you MUST do this, you’ll need to accept the possibility that there’ll be error-light issues. It seems to me that the logical strategy would be to replace the halogen DRL bulbs with LEDs that are advertised as having a good chance of not producing errors (for example) https://www.autobulbsdirect.co.uk/7443-twenty20-cree-led-12v-580-canbus-wedge-bulb.html and hope these work OK. If there were error-light issues, you could still go back to the halogen DRLs. This YouTube video is about replacing a Ducato X290’s HEADLAMP bulbs with LEDs. No mention is made of this resulting in error-light issues, so a Ducato X290’s sensing system might well tolerate a ‘OK for CANBUS’ LED bulb for the DRL without adding a resistor/adapter. As I said above, doing what the video describes should, nowadays, result in a MOT test failure https://www.gov.uk/guidance/mot-inspection-manual-for-private-passenger-and-light-commercial-vehicles/4-lamps-reflectors-and-electrical-equipment#section-4-1-4 That regulation won’t apply to a halogen-to-LED DRLbulb replacement. There may be a DRL maximum ‘brightness’ limit, but - if there is - I don’t know what that might be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted October 14, 2021 Share Posted October 14, 2021 What do you do when these LED bulbs fail a long way from home and you need to get replacements? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeamRienza Posted October 14, 2021 Share Posted October 14, 2021 I would simply replace it with the halogen bulb that I removed and now carry as a spare. Same with the headlight bulbs. All my vehicles carry a kit of spare bulbs anyway. Davy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 14, 2021 Share Posted October 14, 2021 John52 - 2021-10-14 9:52 AM What do you do when these LED bulbs fail a long way from home and you need to get replacements? Ducato X290 models introduced in 2014 had the option of headlamps with integrated LED DRLs, and the latest (2021) Ducato (that I note has the same 2.2litre powerplant as that used in Citroen Relay/Peugeot Boxer vehicles) can have ‘full’ LED headlamps. In the first case, if a significant fault develops with the LED DRL, the complete headlamp will need replacement and, in the 2nd case, if any LED-related fault occurs (presumably) a new headlamp will be required. It’s likely that anyone replacing a halogen bulb with a LED equivalent (or changing a halogen headlamp bulb for an uprated halogen bulb) will retain the original bulb - the trouble will come when the original light-unit or bulb is LED-type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fripp Posted October 14, 2021 Author Share Posted October 14, 2021 I am only looking to replace the DRL bulbs which I don't think are halogen are they (21/5w) Happy with the H7 halogens. The LED bulbs which produce no error must just have a resistor in. I can't see what else they can do to fool the ECU? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 14, 2021 Share Posted October 14, 2021 I've assumed that all conventional automotive bulbs marketed nowadays are 'halogen' type, and that includes the W21/5W bulb. Certainly this advertiser thinks that's some of them are... https://www.autobulbsdirect.co.uk/580-w21-5w-car-bulbs/ The differences between incandescent, halogen and LED bulbs are explained here https://www.superbrightleds.com/blog/led-vs-incandescent-vs-halogen/707/ I can't see this matters an iota in your case as it's the lower wattage of the replacement LED bulb that may cause problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fripp Posted October 14, 2021 Author Share Posted October 14, 2021 Follow up query. Does anybody know if the ECU is measuring current or resistance to decide whether there is a fault. I am guessing resistance as I don't think 'Canbus LED' bulbs look big enough for a parallel power resistor, and I assume they have a resistor in series with the LED circuit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 14, 2021 Share Posted October 14, 2021 This link might help you https://www.autobulbsdirect.co.uk/blog/led-bulb-canbus-error-codes-how-to-fix-with-video/ (The first of the 'comments' questions relates to W21/5W DRL bulbs.) The advice given essentially repeats what I suggested earlier - obtain from a reputable vendor LED W21/5W bulbs that are advertised for vehicles with a CANBUS system. If ' errors' occur after fitting those bulbs, add supplementary resistors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fripp Posted October 14, 2021 Author Share Posted October 14, 2021 I see the recommendation is use a Canbus LED bulb first and then fit a power resistor if that doesn't work. What I was after is feedback from people who have used these on Ducatos to see if they have experienced no issues with just the Canbus LED Bulb. If so then I would assume the LED bulbs have a built in series resistor in the bulb. I might have a test with some resistors and see what I discover. It is more easily tested in series as the power rating will be much lower, and I probably have the resistors in stock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 15, 2021 Share Posted October 15, 2021 To the best of my knowledge, the only Out&AboutLive forum members who have mentioned replacement of their motorhome’s original DRL bulbs with LED equivalents have been ColinM50 (who had resultant problems and said above that he did not complete the exercise) and TeamRienza who swapped the DRL bulbs of his Hymer A-class motorhome and - because he did not say otherwise - presumably did not experience ‘error faults’ as a consequence. You need to appreciate that this is a relatively small forum and the chances of anyone else here having successfully made the DRL swap (or even bothering to attempt it) are minimal. As I said in an earlier thread, I considered doing this with my Ducato’s DRLs as an experimental ‘cosmetic’ exercise but - given the potential for error faults being produced - chose not to risk wasting my money. If I had decided to make the swap, I’d have followed the logical “Suck it and see” approach you’ve mentioned in your last posting’s 1st sentence. You could try asking about this on the Fiat forum https://www.fiatforum.com/ or on the larger-user-population Motohome Facts and Motorhome Fun forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeamRienza Posted October 15, 2021 Share Posted October 15, 2021 Just to confirm, I changed my halogen DRLs to LEDs without issue (twenty 20) and had no problems. Based on this experience I decided to do the same with my headlight bulbs, again without a problem. The only difference between my fiat A class and a coachbuilt is the shape and style of the lamp unit. Davy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fripp Posted October 15, 2021 Author Share Posted October 15, 2021 Thanks, I guess the ECU could be programmed differently for an A class as the headlights will not be supplied by FIAT so they won't know what the builder will fit. I'll have a play and see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 15, 2021 Share Posted October 15, 2021 Although manufacturers of A-class motorhomes may well fit different front lights to those used on an ordinary Ducato cab, it’s most unlikely that the ECU of the Ducato cowl on which a Fiat-based A-class model is built will have been differently programmed to allow for this. The original halogen headlamp bulbs of Davy’s Hymer A-class may have different fittings to the H7 halogen bulbs used in a X290 Ducato’s standard headlamp, but the Hymer’s bulbs are still likely to be at least 55W. And Davy has said he used P21W LED bulbs for the DRLs. As the latter bulbs were not problematical, there’s a realistc chance that Twenty20 W21/5W LED bulbs would also be OK in your Carado’s DRLs. You seem to be making unnecessarily heavy weather over this. Whatever replacement LED bulbs you choose for your motorhome’s DRLs, until you fit them you won’t know how your motorhome will react. I can (sort of) understand the attraction of buying cheap W21/5W LED bulbs (example here) https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/253141765357 and then, if they provoke errors, adding resistors that you might already happen to have to see if that cured the errors. But if you did that and the resistors were ineffective, you’d have wasted your money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted October 16, 2021 Share Posted October 16, 2021 The logical step IMHO would be to phone the supplier & ask if he can confirm the lights are compatible with the Fiat canbus system. Then, if he can confirm they are request a money back guarantee, if they prove not to be or if he can't give a definitive answer, don't buy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 16, 2021 Share Posted October 16, 2021 Worth a try, but I doubt that any supplier of LED bulbs could give a 100% guarantee that (in fripp’s Ducato-related case) simply replacing the originall standard W21/5W bulb with a LED equivalent would not result in ‘errors’. This advert (mentioned in my earlier posting above) https://www.autobulbsdirect.co.uk/7443-twenty20-cree-led-12v-580-canbus-wedge-bulb.html gives a 90% chance of that bulb being fully CANBus compliant. The video in the advert goes into more detail, including fitting parallel-connected resistors should errors occur. (As the Ducato’s DRL bulb is twin-filament, if errors occurred on both the 21W and 5W circuits when the LED bulb was installed, presumably a 21W and 5W resistor would need to be fitted for each LED bulb.) The website carries reviews and the supplier comments Unfortunately there's still no such thing as a 100% canbus compatible bulb. These are among the most compatible on the market, but even then still aren't quite enough for the most fussy of vehicles. We're very sorry they didn't work out for your Boxer on this occasion. The Twenty20 CanPlus range have extra resistance built in which may work better for your vehicle. The CanPlus W21/5W bulb is advertised here and is claimed to work on 99% of vehicles without causing a warning light. - so this may be a better bet. (However, one of the two reviews reports incompatibility with a 2015 Fiat car.) https://www.autobulbsdirect.co.uk/580-twenty20-canplus-led-canbus-bulbs-w21-5w.html I can find no online reports where a Ducato X290’s standard W21/5W DRL bulbs had been replaced with LED equivalents, so if fripp decides to do this, it will be a leap into the unknown. Given suppliers’ caveats about the potential for replacement LED bulb CANBus incompatibility, one must either accept that risk and live in hope or leave the original bulbs alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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