Leisure batteries!

[snail]

Hi all, winter maintenance, looking through my extensive history thought it was time for new batteries?

 

My Alphaline dc27 105 amp twin batteries were installed in January 2012, not bad never on ehu during summer months 130 watt solar, so thought I would replace like for like, they haven't failed yet and we tend to park up for a few weeks at a time

 

It appears not available anymore and more to the point physical sizes have changed so can now only get a 95 amp battery in, they are under front seats in our hymer is this the norm now?

 

Size limits are 302mm L x 172mm W x 220mm H, have looked many places Tayna, alpha, megastore, Halfords etc

 

Any ideas thanks Brian

[Derek Uzzell]

To meet the dimensions you've quoted (representing a "335" size battery) you may have to settle for a dual-purpose battery.

 

For example

 

https://www.tayna.co.uk/leisure-batteries/exide/er450/

[Tracker]

For many years before so called leisure batteries were foisted onto us I always used a marine or truck battery - often s/h from a breakers yard - and never had a moment's bother with any of 'em.

 

Then we had progress and purpose made leisure batteries - allegedly - and no batteries ever gave me the grief and unreliability that so called leisure batteries did!

[Derek Uzzell]

Few batteries have been marketed purely for 'leisure' purposes (Banner's "Energy Bull" is one example) - the majority of leisure batteries have been thinly-disguised starter batteries, or dual-purpose batteries able to start a motor as well as provide a reasonable 'deep discharge' capability.

 

The much-loved Varta LFD90 was dual-purpose, as are Varta's LED95 successor

 

https://www.alpha-batteries.co.uk/12v-90ah-varta-lfd-90-professional-leisure-battery-930090080/

 

and Yuasa's L36-FB (referred to in another recent thread).

 

This Alphaline webpage

 

http://www.leisurebatteriesireland.com/Alphaline_Leisure_Batteries.html

 

indicates that Brian's Alphaline DC27 batteries were 'genuine' leisure batteries

 

Alphaline DC

The DC battery range has been designed for deep cycling primarily - this makes it ideal for those that require a heavy duty battery, for

example marine or leisure applications with large consumer loads - or those that wild camp for extended periods.

 

but Alphaline batteries are no longer available.

 

Although 335-size 12V batteries are easy enough to find online, the majority are just intended for engine-starting not deep discharging (Yuasa and Bosch examples here)

 

https://www.mdsbattery.co.uk/yuasa-ybx5335-silver-12v-335-car-battery.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIxcbPncXN9QIV42DmCh0fHQ5-EAQYAyABEgJav_D_BwE

 

https://batteryfactory.co.uk/products/s4028-bosch-car-battery-12v-95ah-cca-830-amps-type-335?variant=30983289864227&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIxcbPncXN9QIV42DmCh0fHQ5-EAQYAiABEgJX3PD_BwE

 

The battery I thought would be a suitable replacement was the Exide ER450 that I mentioned above. This has quoted dimensions of

 

Length 306 mm

Width 173 mm

Height inc. terms 222 mm

 

but I assume those would be OK in Brian's case.

[Tracker]

The high opinions of leisure batteries emanates mainly from those who sell or make them.

 

I have not looked for a while but truly independent evidence was very very thin on the ground. Perhaps things have improved but somehow I doubt it.

 

Those of us who remember Allan Evans of A&N Caravans in North Wales (still trading) will recall that from his extensive personal experience of all sorts of batteries on motorhomes, cars and caravans he was less than enthusiatic about the vast majority of so called leisure batteries and their maker's and seller's often dubious claims regarding capacity and durability.

 

I have had good longevity from Varta batteries in the past, but the last two new ones some 15 years ago were rubbish and if I were buying today I suspect that, following up to date research, Bosch batteries would figure highly of my list of preferences.

 

I am by no means an expert and this is a personal view based only on experience.

[snail]

Thanks for your replies guys, those are the maximum dimensions that I can have when i posted, it looks as though i will have to settle on 95 amp if i change them, we are quite low users of power, only ever have 12 volt accessories, no inverters, low consumption tv etc I think this why they have lasted so long?

[Tracker]

The biggest killer of batteries is allowing them to drop to a very deep level of discharge and then leaving them like it and then overcharging them for prolonged periods (ie unregulated solar panels), so you may well be right, your usage may well have proven conducive to long life!

 

Personally speaking - if it ain't broke why fix it? Just keep an eye on the individual battery voltages as batteries rarely just die instantly, especially light use non starter batteries and especially two together. More often they deteriorate over time and the worst one tends to drag down the better one.

 

With two batteries you can always just revert to one - something many of us have had to do over the years as a temporary get out of jail card.

 

Temporary use of jump leads from leisure to starter batteries can also get you some lights and water or a flush- or the van started if needed - best to disconnect leisure batteries from internal circuits before you try this to avoid any potential risk to electronics.

[Alanb]

The habitation batteries on my PVC, are getting older, as are all of us.

 

I have managed to stretch the maximum available length in the under seat locations to 306 mm at the battery base, and perhaps a little more at cell top height. Hence my prefered dimensions are similar to Brian's.

 

I considered the Exide ER450 mentioned above

 

My research led me to Group 27 batteries.

 

Here are some examples, but some may be too high. I am considering either the XD27, or the LXD100 for my next purchase.

 

I have not previously used Advanced Batteries for the van, but the second and third replacement batteries on our lawn tractor were supplied by them. The tractor is over 26 years old, and was used last week.

[Derek Uzzell]

Tracker - 2022-01-25 7:08 PM

 

.....I have had good longevity from Varta batteries in the past, but the last two new ones some 15 years ago were rubbish and if I were buying today I suspect that, following up to date research, Bosch batteries would figure highly of my list of preferences.

 

I am by no means an expert and this is a personal view based only on experience.

 

https://www.batteriesontheweb.co.uk/bosch-versus-varta-batteries/

[Deneb]

Tracker - 2022-01-25 7:08 PM

I have had good longevity from Varta batteries in the past, but the last two new ones some 15 years ago were rubbish and if I were buying today I suspect that, following up to date research, Bosch batteries would figure highly of my list of preferences.

 

Both are manufactured by Johnson Controls, often in the same factory, so can be just a relabeling exercise!

 

Edit: who have sold their power solutions business to Brookfield B.P. Thanks Derek, I didn't know that, but likely they are still made in the same factory, which has been subject to a sign relabeling exercise as well!

[Tracker]

Thanks guys, I didn't know that.

 

My experience is not that recent and, having had no need to buy a battery for many years, dates back to a different era before the current level of badge engineering.

 

Badge engineering is a modern day issue where inferior products can be badged into a perceived higher quality because an obscure company, often Far East in origin, has purchased the right to use a brand name, which makes me wonder how many others use labels to claim someone else's batteries are their own make?

 

Is nothing what it seems anymore?

[Deneb]

Johnson Controls are a US based company, and were one of the world's largest automotive battery manufacturers. The Bosch and Varta batteries were still manufactured in Europe, in the same factory that Bosch and Varta set up for their original joint venture. As Brookfield now claim to be the world's largest battery manufacturer, presumably through their acquisition of JCs power division, I wouldn't be surprised if the factory producing Bosch and Varta automotive batteries for Europe wasn't still in Germany.

 

AtlasBX are another large battery manufacturer, based in South Korea. As well as selling batteries under the Hankook brand, they supply labelled batteries to many independent businesses, including just about every battery supplier in the UK. Numax, Lucas, and nearly all of the UK suppliers own label batteries all originate in the same factory, fitted with whatever label either AtlasBX choose to use, or the purchaser has asked them to affix!

[Derek Uzzell]

This 2019 Russian webpage may be of interest

 

https://tinyurl.com/mr3m72z3

 

This website

 

https://technoluxpro.com/en/akkumulyatory/avtomobilnye/alphaline.html#i

 

indicates that Alphaline batteries are made by the South Korean company Atlas BX.

 

The E-NEX DC27 MF 'deep cycle' battery has the required dimensions (302x172x220)

 

and this battery SEEMS to be marketed in the UK but "NUMAX" labelled.

 

https://advancedbatterysupplies.co.uk/product/dc27-mf-numax-leisure-battery-12v-95ah/

 

 

 

 

 

[Deneb]

Derek Uzzell - 2022-01-26 6:52 PM

 

 

The E-NEX DC27 MF 'deep cycle' battery has the required dimensions (302x172x220)

 

and this battery SEEMS to be marketed in the UK but "NUMAX" labelled.

 

https://advancedbatterysupplies.co.uk/product/dc27-mf-numax-leisure-battery-12v-95ah/

 

Also available as the Hankook DC27MF from several UK suppliers and Amazon, as the X-Pro DC27MF, the Lucas LX27MF, etc. etc. ;-)

[Tracker]

Around 10 - 15 years ago Numax batteries were very common, being supplied by many dealers and often available at shows.

 

I never actually paid for a Numax battery but I did have experiences of them when supplied as replacements for failed leisure batteries under warranty on two separate vans.

 

Based on those experiences it is not a brand of battery that I would willingly pay for!!

[Derek Uzzell]

Some NUMAX-related information is here

 

https://technoluxpro.com/en/akkumulyatory/avtomobilnye/numax.html

 

The batteries Brian has said he needs must have 'Group 27' dimensions

 

https://www.batteryequivalents.com/group-27-batteries-dimensions-features-and-recommendations.html

 

As should be apparent from Deneb's and my comments above, several batteries with the necessary dimensions are marketed in the UK for 'leisure' usage, but - as Brian has discovered - the quoted capacity of these batteries does not match the 105Ah stated capacity of the Alphaline DC27 batteries that were installed in his motorhome in 2012, and the highest quoted Ah of the current crop seems to be 100Ah (example here)

 

https://tinyurl.com/rxfwsapu

 

As many forum members will be aware, in the past some manufacturers of leisure batteries could be economical with the truth where the performance and construction of their products was concerned, as confirmed by this 2010 article

 

https://www.caravanclub.co.uk/media/13871919/ccmnovtechnical.pdf?type=archive

 

It may be that the 105Ah Alphaline were quoting for their DC27 battery in 2012 was a mite optimistic, but it won't be practicable to check this nowadays.

[Deneb]

Tracker - 2022-01-26 7:25 PM

I never actually paid for a Numax battery but I did have experiences of them when supplied as replacements for failed leisure batteries under warranty on two separate vans.

 

Based on those experiences it is not a brand of battery that I would willingly pay for!!

 

You have to realise that Numax is not a brand of battery. It's a label applied to batteries by Ecobat, who have a carefully worded website which could be read as implying that they manufacture them. In reality, they source batteries from suppliers with the Numax label attached. So the DC27MF is a Hankook (AtlasBX) battery supplied with a Numax label, but that's not to say that a different type of Numax battery will be as good or bad as that specific model.

 

I've had two DC27MFs (Hankook labelled) for over 6 years and they're still going strong, albeit not in my van. For a leisure battery that is fairly lightly loaded and never discharged to any great depth they will probably be fine. They utilise a similar grid technology to the Varta LFD batteries, although as I recall Allan EVANS pointed out here some time back, AtlasBX's own literature indicated they had a life of only around 300 charging cycles if regularly discharge to 50% capacity, so there are better batteries depending on your needs, but there are also far worse.

 

That's not to say a different type of Numax labelled battery will be as good or bad.

 

Welcome to the modern world of battery relabelling and brand confusion. Nearly all the resellers appear to do it with their "own brand" batteries. Halfords don't manufacture their own batteries for instance. They are obtained from other manufacturers with Halfords labels attached.

 

You also have to watch out for relabelled batteries that show a greater claimed capacity on their labels than the same battery on its original manufacturer's label. It's amazing the difference a piece of glossy adhesive backed paper can make ;-)

[Deneb]

Derek Uzzell - 2022-01-27 8:58 AM

 

It may be that the 105Ah Alphaline were quoting for their DC27 battery in 2012 was a mite optimistic, but it won't be practicable to check this nowadays.

 

If I recall correctly Derek, the same battery with its manufacturer's own Hankook label was also quoted as 105Ah originally. They were relabelled to 95Ah after some independent testing AFAIR, so Brian's batteries were probably 95Ah capacity all along, but with a "go-faster" label.

[snail]

Thanks to all contributes, food for thought I've decided to have a early trip away April time and see how mine cope!

 

Why can't these battery manufacturers just tell the truth, I don't care about labels (after all I worked in a dairy for 25 years who supplied milk for many supermarkets with their own label!)

 

But the amps and recycle info you should be able to trust?

 

Thanks Brian

[Tracker]

Tell the truth - now there's a novelty!

[Derek Uzzell]

Pontius Pilate is said to have asked "Quid est veritas" (What is truth?) and this link

 

https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-904-how-to-measure-capacity

 

advises that measurement of a battery's Ah (and CCA) has plenty of capacity (Ho Ho) for variation.

 

Given Brian's leisure-battery usage pattern, I doubt that it really matters if a replacement battery were claimed to have a 90Ah or a 95Ah or a 100Ah capacity. Me, I'd go for the Exide battery, but I ain't buying...