Jonathon Posted April 9, 2022 Share Posted April 9, 2022 Hi, This is my first post having just been accepted! I have been looking to upgrade our ancient Rapido and have seen a couple of Dethleffs circa 2007/8 both with the Ford Transit 2002 engine. I have read that there were problems with this engine around this time. I wonder if anyone out there has experience and can advise. Thanks for reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witzend Posted April 9, 2022 Share Posted April 9, 2022 Jonathon - 2022-04-09 7:34 AM Hi, This is my first post having just been accepted! I have been looking to upgrade our ancient Rapido and have seen a couple of Dethleffs circa 2007/8 both with the Ford Transit 2002 engine. I have read that there were problems with this engine around this time. I wonder if anyone out there has experience and can advise. Thanks for reading. Hi I think you mean 2.2 engine mines did 78k faultlessly https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/2-2-Fiat-etc-engine-gearbox/19004/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 9, 2022 Share Posted April 9, 2022 The engines of that period were a joint venture between Ford Europe and PSA of France. We had a 2007 example that was very prone to cutting out if loaded at low revs (such as when driving off). It "felt" like a stall, but I was told was actually the electronics shutting the engine down. This was cured by a free remap of the ECU (actually developed by Land Rover, who also used the engines) which substantially overcame the problem. The problem was exacerbated by a rather sharp clutch, but after the remap it was possible to feed in the clutch gently at tickover speed, and see the engine revs rise as the load came on rather than just dying. Made slow moving uphill traffic much less heart in mouth. That apart the engine was much livelier and more responsive than its Fiat counterparts, and gave a good drive. Just make sure that remap has been carried out on vehicle of this vintage. Ford later accepted the Land Rover map as standard, but I don't know when. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtravel Posted April 9, 2022 Share Posted April 9, 2022 I am not a Ford engine expert but I have often heard of catastrophic piston problems in 2.2 engines. Never recognized by the manufacturer. Probably related to a specific engine model and I don't know exactly what years of production. The internet is full of references about this, just google something like "Ford 2.2 piston problem issue". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted April 9, 2022 Share Posted April 9, 2022 A few relevant links https://engineengineering.co.uk/start/reconditioned-engines-rebuilt:298/ford-reconditioned-engines:330/ford-duratorq-22l-tdci:1053 https://srpauto.com.au/ford-transit-engine-problems/ https://fordtransit.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=173767 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathon Posted April 10, 2022 Author Share Posted April 10, 2022 Many thanks for all the replies. I am no expert, but on reading through the links it seems that there were numerous problems with this engine especially in motor homes especially during the period 2006 2010 which is the sort of age I am looking for to update my Rapido. Probably OK if all the software updates were installed on time but with an older van you can’t be sure. I think I will hold out for a Ducato 2.3 JTD which seems to be a really good reliable engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted April 10, 2022 Share Posted April 10, 2022 This link may be of interest https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/motorhomes/articles/practical-advice/motorhome-advice-top-10-motorhome-problems-solved and a GOOGLE-search on "fiat ducato 2.3 multijet engine problems" may be worth doing. Information on the powerplants used in Fiat Ducato vehicles during the 2006-2010 period can be found here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_Ducato and you may notice that a close cousin of the Ford "Puma" 2198cc unit fitted to Transits was used in some Ducatos until 2010 and continued to be used in Peugeot Boxers/Citroen Relays for years after that. The Iveco 2287cc (2.3litre) unit used in Ducatos has a good reliability reputation, but it has a timing-belt rather than the Ford engine's timing-chain and - if the timing-belt fails - there's a high likelihood that the enginre will be badly damaged. So, if you do opt for a Ducato with that motor, check that the timing-belt has been changed at the intervals specified by Fiat. Buying a motorhome that is 12-16 years old carries age-related risks. If the vehicle's motor has been maintained properly and is running well, it should continue to be reliable whether it is a 2.3 fiat or 2.2 Ford - or it could blow up tomorrow. Although Brian Kirby's comments about software might give cause for alarm, the driving characteristics of a 2006-2010 Ford Transit Mk 7-based motorhome should become obvious when the vehicle is test-driven. I owned a 2005 Transit Mk 6-based motorhome with the 2.0litre motor that preceded the 2.2litre and that was a sod to start from rest for the reasons Brian mentions - but that didn't stop me keeping it for 9 years. (If you do go for a Ford Mk 7, I strongly suggest you opt for one with 6-speed gearbox, not the 5-speed gearbox of earlier Mk 7s.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted April 10, 2022 Share Posted April 10, 2022 Brian Kirby - 2022-04-09 12:16 PM The engines of that period were a joint venture between Ford Europe and PSA of France. We had a 2007 example that was very prone to cutting out if loaded at low revs (such as when driving off). It "felt" like a stall, but I was told was actually the electronics shutting the engine down. . Same as mine - computer said no and stopped the engine if it thought you were labouring it. Never bothered me though, I just gave it a bit more revs. Done 90,000 miles and I was very happy with it until last year, when going up a long hill it suddenly lost power with lots of smoke. Cost £800 to get it recovered 140 miles. (Its not the EGR valve as that has been blanked off) Engine starts and runs, on tickover you might think there is nothing wrong with it. Floored the throttle and nothing broke. Can still drive it. But when you rev it up you get a huge amount of smoke - enough to turn heads in the street, not much power, Oil dripping from somewhere around the Turbo area at the rear of the engine. Bought a new Ducato 2.3 as I remembered you saying that an Italian guy you spoke to regarded the Fiat as more of a durable truck engine, and the Ford/PSA 2.2 engine more like a car engine and not really up to the job. Transferred the contents over to the new van. Shame to scrap it as there isn't a speck of rust on the bodyshell or doors - even where self tappers have penetrated the galvanising on the wet floor. But not got round to doing anything with it, or getting anyone else to look at it, so currently using it as a garden shed. I don't know whats wrong with it. :$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 10, 2022 Share Posted April 10, 2022 We had something similar with ours on our way to Dover for our first trip abroad with that van. Limped on and into the Dover port OK and then called AA. AA man peered over the back of the engine and came back with a large "Jubilee" clip, and showed me where one end of the turbo tube had blown off a metal item which looked vaguely like a silencer, but obviously wasn't. Having got the clip onto the tube and tightened, it he went back to his van and returned with another clip. "Just in case", he said. Off we went and on our way down the A16, not far from Calais, a repeat performance. Took the first exit, drove down the exit road, saw a campsite sign, and limped into that. Further call to Ford's breakdown service and half an hour or so later and up drove a local Peugeot dealer. He fitted the spare jubilee clip and instructed me to take the van to his garage the next morning where he would fit the proper clips in his workshop - yes, he was the proprietor of the local Peugeot dealership! So we did, and he did, and it never missed a beat after that! My first reaction was that we'd had a blowout, because apart from sudden power loss there was an audible bang. No continuing noises, just loss of power and quite a bit of black smoke visible in the mirror. The second time I thought the AA Jubilee had blown off. It transpired that the clips had been fitted during assembly, but never crimped on. Unlikely yours would neve lasted 90K miles with loose turbo tube clips - but you never know. What you describe sounds very similar and would have coincided with a spell of high turbo boost, so a badly tightened clip might have let go little by little until it let go. May be worth a check - you never know. If that's all it is it would be a relatively cheap fix. The clips need a special crimping tool to properly tighten. Whether that tool is a Ford/PSA special I don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted April 11, 2022 Share Posted April 11, 2022 Brian Kirby - 2022-04-10 7:28 PM AA man peered over the back of the engine Thats Interesting, Thanks. But it sounds like there is more room behind the engine in your Transit Can't see anything behind the engine from above in my Sevel Van Looks like access to the turbo might be possible from below Even then it looks like a 'jobus bastardus' - especially without a vehicle hoist :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted April 11, 2022 Share Posted April 11, 2022 The 2.8JTD Ducato engine had a common issue with the turbo intercooler pipe "blowing off". It happened to me on a Friday evening in my Rapido heading for the East Coast, and just as I joined the, very busy, A64. A complete and instant loss of any power, making the entry onto the A64 from the slip road "interesting". No diagnostics showing up. Having read about it, I immediately thought "intercooler hose" (though it could really have been just about anything). I limped into the next layby, got the head torch out, and a mirror from SWMBO's handbag, and diagnosed that that was exactly what it was. Luckily, the retaining clip hadn't fallen off the metal end, and with the appropriate tools in my toolkit, half an hour, a lot of swearing, and much barked knuckles, later we were on our way again. Just in case, I subsequently bought and carried an appropriate spare clip, but there was no further occurrence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 11, 2022 Share Posted April 11, 2022 John52 - 2022-04-10 1:08 PM ......................................Done 90,000 miles and I was very happy with it until last year, when going up a long hill it suddenly lost power with lots of smoke. Sorry, I took your comment above to be a reference to your Transit, John, not to its SEVEL replacement. Our Turkish assembled, 2007, Puma engined, Transit based Hobby - which was the one that blew its "turbo tube" - was on a bog Transit standard platform-cab chassis, so had a bog standard Transit engine bay. The tube in question was maybe 2" diameter. "Rubber" each end of the metal bit which, on reflection, may have been no more than a metal insert to resist heat from the exhaust manifold/pipe which, from memory, was also on the rear of the engine. However, Bob's comment above suggests that Ford Turkey may not have been the only manufacturer whose workers were a bit "screwdriver shy"! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted April 12, 2022 Share Posted April 12, 2022 Brian Kirby - 2022-04-11 10:22 AM Sorry, I took your comment above to be a reference to your Transit, John, not to its SEVEL replacement. No I'm Sorry. Thats not surprising when its a thread on Ford Transit engines My fault - I should have said its a 2008 Citroen Relay :$ But its the 2.2 PUMA engine referred to earlier on this thread, with 'Ford' cast into parts of it. There have been threads on melted pistons with this engine. But, even after having floored the throttle, this one still runs - with a cold engine on tickover it seems normal, perhaps just a bit lumpy as though something is out of balance. You might feel confident to drive it. Till you rev it up and see the smoke - the warmer the engine gets the worse it gets, more and more smoke, less and less power, so you get the feeling its going to choke itself to death and cut out leaving you stranded. Which is why I got it (and me) recovered home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathon Posted April 25, 2022 Author Share Posted April 25, 2022 Thanks, Really interesting comments here which leads me to another puzzle! I abandoned the Ford Transit MH and have found a 2008 Rapido Citroen with the Citroen 2.2 engine. It has 120,000 km on the clock but had the engine replaced at 100,000 km. From reading this thread it seems that the Citroen 2.2 engine was largely the same as the Ford Transit engine which may explain the replacement after 100,000 km. Perhaps I have got this wrong but sure some experts there can elaborate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted April 25, 2022 Share Posted April 25, 2022 The Fiat Ducato Wikipedia entry I provided a link to earlier also covers Peugeot Boxer and Citroen Relay/Jumper vehicles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_Ducato The table relating to 2007-2010 engines (copy attached below) shows that a "Ford Puma" 2198cc (2.2litre) motor was used in Boxer, Ducato and Relay/Jumper vehicles during that period. This is essentially the same powerplant fitted to front-wheel-drive Ford Transits during that period and was called "Duratorq" by Ford. It will be noticed from the following link that the 2198cc motor was also employed in several Ford cars, plus Jaguars, Land Rovers and London taxis. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Duratorq_engine There were power output variations between the 2198cc units fitted to Transits and Boxer, Ducato and Relay/Jumper vehicles, and one might reasonably expect there to have been 'installation' changes (eg. the exhaust system) due to engine compartment differences. But - to all intents and purposes - the engines in the Dethleffs you referred to in your original posting are the same as the the engine in the 2008 Rapido Citroen. (When I was looking to change motorhomes in 2014 I considered buying a new Globecar panel-van conversion from a French dealership. These were available in Continental Europe with a Fiat 2.3litre motor or a Citroen (ie. Ford) 2.2litre motor, with the latter version significantly the cheaper. I discussed this with a French salesman, observing that the Citroen model was not only less expensive, but its motor had a timing-chain (rather than the Fiat's timing-belt) so service charges would be reduced. He replied that this might well be the case, but the Ford motor had gained a reputation for injector issues - so the problems mentioned above were well known years ago.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathon Posted April 25, 2022 Author Share Posted April 25, 2022 Wow, lots of research there. Thanks, so that may explain why the engine was replaced at 100,000 km. So what would the new 2.2 engine be like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted April 25, 2022 Share Posted April 25, 2022 Which "new 2.2 engine"? The latest Fiat Ducato has a 2.2litre motor, and current Peugeot Boxer/Citroen Relay/Jumper vehicles also have a 2.2litre motor. But the Fiat motor and the Peugeot/Citroen motor are different powerplants. Or are you referring to the replacement motor in the Citroen Relay motorhome you might be interested in? Unusual for a Rapido motorhome to have a Citroen motor. I'm aware that Rapido built on a Citroen platform for a while (for price reasons) but I thought those models were only marketed outside the UK and so would have been left-hand-drive. (A follow-up - I’ve now noticed that your IP Address indicates you are in France (Paris area) which probably explains the Citroen base.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathon Posted April 25, 2022 Author Share Posted April 25, 2022 Sorry, I should have mentioned that. I live in France! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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