Possible delamination of Burstner Floor

[machra]

Went out to van today (Burstner 690G 2017 model) and noticed the floor in the middle of van by the kitchen has bubbled/delaminated in an area about a foot square. The floor has never shown any signs of issues before. The top layer of the floor is a hard oak effect laminate. I assume it is a laminate as it is very solid. There is no signs of damp anywhere and my thought is if it is delamination then it is caused by a faulty glue when built. Any one else had any problems please?

[John52]

How would you know its not damp under the top layer?

I've never seen delamination that hasn't been caused by damp

(Not saying it can't happen without damp, just that I have never seen it.)

 

[Derek Uzzell]

A GOOGLE-search on "burstner motorhome floor delamination" suggests that this issue is not unknown for Burstners and that damp is not always the culprit.

[Steve928]

It's a well-known and common problem due to failed adhesive - I believe the affected build years are 2017-19. Camper UK have the only team that have been trained in Germany to affect repairs and will be able to advise re any contribution to costs from Burstner. This post (from Jan 21) gives their contact details:

[Globebuster1]

As Derek says, it's not an unknown occurrence on Burstner products - or Hymer for that matter.

On other forums, some Burstner owners have had this sorted under warranty.

I very much doubt it's a laminate covering, but if it's anything like Hymer use, it will certainly be a fairly dense [and relatively thick] vinyl.

On most Hymer group products they have been using a fully encapsulated GRP floor for quite some time, great for avoiding water ingress, and lightweight and strong.

The problem appears to be the glue failing between the covering and the floor - although this is not always the case, as judging by the info on the german Hymer forum, it is often the floor itself collapsing as the foam between the GRP double skin breaks down under load - which requires very expensive remedial work [see HME forum]

I have a minor issue with my Exsis, where the heat from the blown air outlets on a high setting, will lift the vinyl slightly in a couple of places adjacent to the outlets once hot - however it returns to normal as it cools.

I suspect the the glue is failing between the vinyl and GRP layer once warmed, but I will be leaving it alone - as there are no signs of the floor itself is becoming unstable or delaminating - it's simply the vinyl covering expanding with heat, whilst the floor itself is a more rigid surface. 

Regarding damp being a problem, that, I think is very doubtful - delamination can be caused in equal measure by heat [and or] a failure to correctly bond the various substrates together where any structure is made up of layers.

The difference will be whether it's just the vinyl lifting or if the top layer of the GRP sandwich has detached from the foam inner core.

[Globebuster1]

Looks like Steve beat me to it! - and with a much more straightforward answer😄

[Cruisecontrol]

As said above this is usually a delamination  problem  ( for Buestners made 2016 to  about 2018).

Buestner  have trained up a few dealers who will tackle the problem and, as I understand  it,  will help or cover the cost. This usually involves cutting out the affected area and replacing. ( Apparently  the fault is due to the glue used twixt the laminations which is less toxic  than the previously  used glue,  but it deteriorates over time)

If near the South then Southdown in Portsmouth  are are good place to start. During covid they were awaiting training. In 2021 the only a major dealer in  the UK (Camper Uk Lincoln as said above) could undertake the work but had a long waiting list. They in turn required confirmation  via Buestner. My floor  was just creaking and as such didn't  qualify  for "replacement".

 

[Hans]

On 12/27/2022 at 5:44 PM, machra said:

Went out to van today (Burstner 690G 2017 model) and noticed the floor in the middle of van by the kitchen has bubbled/delaminated in an area about a foot square. The floor has never shown any signs of issues before. The top layer of the floor is a hard oak effect laminate. I assume it is a laminate as it is very solid. There is no signs of damp anywhere and my thought is if it is delamination then it is caused by a faulty glue when built. Any one else had any problems please?

 

[Hans]

Can you post a picture?

[machra]

Thank you all for your replies.  I believe the problem is the top floor covering (vinyl) coming unglued from the floor structure. Globuster - the main area is underneath one of the blown air vents and I did wonder whether the hot air blowing on the vinyl had anything to do with the problem. Following steve928's post I contacted Camper UK and they in turn contacted Burstner.  Burstner will cover some of the cost but want me to pay £1700 towards the fix (Burstner cover the full cost for vans upto to 5 years old apparently).  I have spoken with Camper UK and had a really good chat about this.  They say it will take 30 to 40 hrs to fix and will cost between £2000 to £2500.  So Burstner are expecting me to foot most of the bill.  Camper UK have given dates for the fix - Apr or Sep 2023 (yes that is 2023 as they only have one technician that does the job and he is maxed out).  Camper UK say most people have questioned why they have to pay so much towards the fix and obviously have been directed at Burstner, a course I will be taking.  Apparently it isn't an isolated problem hence the long waiting time for the fix.  Not expecting to get anywhere with Burstner but worth a letter I think.  Has no one else on the forum suffered as I would be interested in what happened if they contacted Burstner directly.

[Globebuster1]

I would be interested to know what this work entails - in some cases with Hymer, the floor has to be milled out, but I would imagine that's only when the actual floor itself has failed, not just the bond between it and the vinyl.

With those sort of man-hours maybe they dismantle the innards so the new floor can be laid underneath the furniture?

There are a couple of Burstner owners on Motorhome Fun who I believe have had the work done, it might pay you to pose the question on there?

[Brian Kirby]

On 1/20/2023 at 4:31 PM, machra said:

Thank you all for your replies.  I believe the problem is the top floor covering (vinyl) coming unglued from the floor structure. Globuster - the main area is underneath one of the blown air vents and I did wonder whether the hot air blowing on the vinyl had anything to do with the problem. Following steve928's post I contacted Camper UK and they in turn contacted Burstner.  Burstner will cover some of the cost but want me to pay £1700 towards the fix (Burstner cover the full cost for vans upto to 5 years old apparently).  I have spoken with Camper UK and had a really good chat about this.  They say it will take 30 to 40 hrs to fix and will cost between £2000 to £2500.  So Burstner are expecting me to foot most of the bill.  Camper UK have given dates for the fix - Apr or Sep 2023 (yes that is 2023 as they only have one technician that does the job and he is maxed out).  Camper UK say most people have questioned why they have to pay so much towards the fix and obviously have been directed at Burstner, a course I will be taking.  Apparently it isn't an isolated problem hence the long waiting time for the fix.  Not expecting to get anywhere with Burstner but worth a letter I think.  Has no one else on the forum suffered as I would be interested in what happened if they contacted Burstner directly.

Have you considered a local carpet shop?  (I'm assuming that these will also normally supply various kinds of vinyl, as our local ones do here.)  If my assumption is correct, and the owner knows his vinyls, he may well be able to identify what the floorcovering is (I doubt it is a Hymer specific product, most probably a "contract quality" commercial type as installed in hotels etc in high-traffic areas).

For obvious reasons, the shops tend to have relationships with independent local fitters, and I would imagine between a good carpet shop and his favourite fitter they could lift and replace the lot with a suitable product for rather less than £1700.  They may even be able to patch in the original if you get really lucky and they have an odd, matching, offcut.  It will cost you nothing to ask, and you never know.  🙂 

You'd obviously need to remove any loose, floor standing, furniture (dining table?) to give working space, but I would imagine that should be fairly straightforward to do.  You'd just need to explain to the fitter that the problem is due to hot air causing the adhesive to de-bond and see if they have a higher temp resistant adhesive they could use.  Otherwise, assuming Truma vents, these can be rotated so as to direct the air sideways rather than down, which should eliminate repeat incidents.

As a further thought, it may be possible to heat the surrounding area, peel back the vinyl (most soften with warmth), remove the existing adhesive with solvent, and then re-stick the existing back with a more appropriate adhesive.  (Though this may be one just for the fitter, as no sale of vinyl involved.  😉)

[machra]

Thanks for your comments Brian. I have written to Burstner so will firstly wait to see what they say. I am not very hopeful but as it seems to be a manufacturing fault (an issue with the glue) and there are a lot of vans affected I may get lucky. I did think about trying a local carpet shop because in my mind the easiest fix would be to drill holes in the existing vinyl enabling you to reglue the vinyl to the floor and then cover the existing vinyl to ‘hide’ the holes, or to cut the existing vinyl away from round the kitchen, bathroom etc and stick new vinyl to the floor. Peeling back the vinyl is not an option because apart from a 3ft piece of floor by the entrance the edges of the area affected is hidden under cabinets, or differing levels of flooring. I will report back when I get an answer from Burstner.

[Sydney1]

If you have the time and the energy, by posting on probably less than 10 key forums you could relatively easily get a group together of others that have suffered the same way and share costs to go legal if you get rebuffed. I think manufacturers should be held to account far more as social media is our friend. Rollerteam came under considerable pressure following the issues the Rolling Rucks had on YT.

 

If not and you do want to consider a DIY approach, there are a few videos on YT that will help. 

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=motorhome+floor+repairs

[Globebuster1]

There's a thread running on Motorhome Fun at the moment - it seems the £1700 quoted is the default figure for customer contribution.

I think Sydney has a point, it might be worth gathering a bit more information from across the web.

[Brian Kirby]

On 1/22/2023 at 11:18 AM, Sydney1 said:

If you have the time and the energy, by posting on probably less than 10 key forums you could relatively easily get a group together of others that have suffered the same way and share costs to go legal if you get rebuffed. I think manufacturers should be held to account far more as social media is our friend. Rollerteam came under considerable pressure following the issues the Rolling Rucks had on YT..

But who would you sue?   Under consumer legislation it is the seller, not the manufacturer, who is liable for repairing/replacing items that have failed unreasonably early in their lives.  Most warranties are couched as non-contractual offers from manufacturers to undertake repairs where they acknowledge fault, and subject to their terms.  It seems Burstner have accepted liability under their warranty, but are limiting their liability to below the full cost of repair, presumably on the basis that the fault has arisen as a result of extended use of the product.  Class action or not, it would seem very late now to begin a case against the selling dealer unless, perhaps, the dealer has demonstrably "hidden behind" (as I'm pretty sure they will have - with fingers crossed behind their backs) the manufacturer's warranty terms.  The series of vehicles involved will now be between 2 and five years old, so mostly likely to be outside the Burstner warranty period (except damp ingress, which this apparently does not involve).

If they will talk, it might be worth discreetly asking Camper UK what the repair involves, and how long it actually takes.  30 - 40 hours is 4 to 5 eight-hour days working full time!  That seems to me a grossly excessive time, unless they are expecting to remove and re-fit all internal furniture to facilitate replacing all the flooring beneath it.  But then, why go the that length in lieu of knifing around the fixed furniture to allow the offending flooring to be removed, and cutting new flooring to fit in its place?  

Not at all the same issue, but I had a detached and leaking overcab rooflight removed and repaired on a Hobby van a few years back by Southdowns of Portsmouth.  They drew in a local specialist windscreen fitter who had the rooflight out and refixed in about a hour, all at Hobby's expense under their warranty.

As Burstner know the models of the affected vans they should surely be able to provide pre-cut flooring to the selling dealer, who could then engage a competent vinyl (presumably) fitter to remove the original, clean and prepare the sub-floor, and lay the new.  4-5 days!!  That's really taking the unmentionable!  4 - 5 hours, maybe.  Anyone ever watched a vinyl flooring fitter work?  🙂  

[machra]

Interesting comments Brian and having had vinyl layer in a few bathrooms I agree the fix I would have thought they would use is to cut a piece of vinyl faced board to fit the area of the van where the fault is, but alas it appears not. I spoke with Camper UK initially and was told that they will be removing the furniture from the van and basically relaying the floor. Apparently they put a piece of 6mm plywood over the grp flooring and stick the new vinyl to the ply. I did hear back from Camper UK yesterday after contacting Burstner. Burstner had spoken with Camper Uk about my email and say they will not change their minds. Their statement back is that the same customer contribution is asked of everyone with the problem (obviously where the owners van is under 5 years old Burstner foot the whole cost). Burstner say take it or leave it!! This is our third Burstner and I am still fuming. They didn’t even have the decency to contact me direct after I emailed them. 

[Globebuster1]

Perhaps it's more than the vinyl lifting then? - Maybe the upper face of the composite floor has delaminated from the foam inner core?

I think with the Hymer it's a GRP/XPS/GRP arrangement? - or possibly the inner is layer is ply instead of GRP, with the vinyl pre-attached?

I'm not sure how they could 'lose' the additional 6mm of ply when reassembling, without milling some of the existing  substrate to compensate for the additional thickness.

I'd be intrigued to know......

[machra]

I believe the floor is GRP/XPS/GRP and from what I am being told the vinyl has come unstuck from the GRP. If this is the case then why they aren’t just cutting the vinyl away from the affected area and sticking new vinyl down is beyond me.    Maybe as you say the GRP has delaminated which is why Burstner are having to take this route.

[Globebuster1]

I suspect that the GRP has delaminated then, because [as you say] they could simply replace the vinyl otherwise.

I think it's possible that the XPS is breaking down underneath the GRP.

I can see on my Hymer, the vinyl in the area between the kitchen and bathroom appears to be very slightly undulating, but is completely stable under load. I think this would confirm that the glue has failed.

In my case it is only mildly exacerbated when the heating is on full blast, whereas some people report a significant bulge regardless of temperature.

Hope you get a satisfactory outcome to your troubles - there are very positive reviews from other Burstner owners who have had this remedial work done.

[machra]

Positive reviews on Motorhome fun??  I only ask as I am a member of that forum but don’t subscribe so cannot search. I will have to pay my £20 subscription and take a look 

[Robinhood]

4 minutes ago, machra said:

Positive reviews on Motorhome fun??  I only ask as I am a member of that forum but don’t subscribe so cannot search. I will have to pay my £20 subscription and take a look 

Try entering site:motorhomefun.co.uk burstner floor in Google to do a search (exactly as per the bold italics)

[Brian Kirby]

18 hours ago, machra said:

.................................I spoke with Camper UK initially and was told that they will be removing the furniture from the van and basically relaying the floor. Apparently they put a piece of 6mm plywood over the grp flooring and stick the new vinyl to the ply. I did hear back from Camper UK yesterday after contacting Burstner. .....................

Interesting.  No wonder it takes nearly a week to do!  However, if the concern is that the GRP is debonding from the core (which doesn't seem consistent with blistered vinyl at heater outlets), then whacking a sheet of 6mm ply on top is hardly going to stop that process progressing, and the ply would still have to be fixed to something, presumably around the periphery.  Plus, on completion, all the removed fixed furniture would now be standing 6mm higher which, for any floor to ceiling units, would require a similar reduction in their height.

Sorry, but sledgehammer and nut come to mind.  I think I'd want to see one in progress, and ideally post completion, to understand the process before shelling out that kind of money.  Failing that, I'd at least want a face to face with those who have done the work, to get a detailed description of exactly what was done, in what order.  Possible?

[Globebuster1]

2 hours ago, machra said:

Positive reviews on Motorhome fun??  I only ask as I am a member of that forum but don’t subscribe so cannot search. I will have to pay my £20 subscription and take a look 

I don't subscribe either - Fairly recent input regarding the subject.

If you click What's New on MHF, the most recent posting has been in the last week or so - in fact I thought it may have actually been yourself enquiring!

[Globebuster1]

2 hours ago, Brian Kirby said:

Interesting.  No wonder it takes nearly a week to do!  However, if the concern is that the GRP is debonding from the core (which doesn't seem consistent with blistered vinyl at heater outlets), then whacking a sheet of 6mm ply on top is hardly going to stop that process progressing, and the ply would still have to be fixed to something, presumably around the periphery.  Plus, on completion, all the removed fixed furniture would now be standing 6mm higher which, for any floor to ceiling units, would require a similar reduction in their height.

Sorry, but sledgehammer and nut come to mind.  I think I'd want to see one in progress, and ideally post completion, to understand the process before shelling out that kind of money.  Failing that, I'd at least want a face to face with those who have done the work, to get a detailed description of exactly what was done, in what order.  Possible?

As I said earlier further up the page - If you're adding 6mm you must have to mill out some of the original surface.

More posts on MHF regarding the subject. It appears Camper UK and Southdowns? have both been factory trained regarding the process