Global Warming............Rant!

[chas]

Rarely do I bother to vote now, I think it gives these councillers and politcians a sense of importance to which they do not deserve. In my opinion they are in it for the money and perks, that tax payers have to fund. If there was someone like Mrs Thatcher who always put the country first seeking election for P.M I would be the first in the polling booth queue, when you look back in recent history only Churchill and Thatcher stand out as modern day leaders, the rest, their record speaks for itself. chas

[Brian Kirby]

Syd - 2007-06-01 9:19 PM ....For that we should thank the blessed Margaret, she of the "Britain isn't good at making things" doctrine. Among her worst campaigns was to get rid of the industry along with the unions". ......I have to disagree with you in part on the above quote. I dont really think Maggie was trying to rid this country of its industry, I believe she was hell bent on reducing the ability of the unions to grossly misuse the power that they had at that time. I also believe that the unions have a lot to answer for when it comes to the decline of UK industry. The names of Red Robbo and Arthur Scargill spring readilly to mind but they were not the only ones that thought their unions ran the country, instead of the elected government, ...........

Sorry about that bit, Syd.  In retrospect, it doesn't quite read right.  What I meant was that she was so fixated on reining in union power (in which I think she was right), she was careless of its wider consequences for industry.  I don't think she actively wanted to rid the counrty of industry, but industry was where the unions lived - and financial services generally where they did not, so she just seems to have reasoned that if the one perished and the other prospered we'd be about OK.  I think, in the end, the pendulum just swung too far and great damage was done.

The other thing re the Robbos and Scargills was that they'd only gained the powers they had as a consequence of supine and self-serving managements.  That was the other thing Maggie got wrong, she did nowhere near enough to improve management performance, which still lags most of the rest of the world.  She also failed to tackle the issue that I think still dogs the UK when compared to other countries, and that is high land costs.  This acts as a huge unseen tax on everyone and everything - yet for some reason we seem to think it makes us richer!  In truth, it inflates the cost of everything that is done or made in this country.  However, that is a different rant!

[Brian Kirby]

CliveH - 2007-05-31 1:02 PM Brian - funny enough I felt your post arrogant and rude. If you cannot find the answer to your questions in my post I suggest you read it again. The rip of is that prices are so high in the UK that other EU countries can and do take our markets! So if they can do it cheaper and yet we are in the same "trading block" we in the UK must be living/trading at a higher cost. And believe me we are! The posts on here are testament and evidence to that.

I'm sorry you thought my post arrogant and rude, Clive.  It wasn't intended to be, just a bit provocative, that's all.

In truth, though, I don't find the answers to my questions in your posts.  Is it not almost inevitable, indeed actually inevitable, they some other countries, be they in Europe or elsewhere around the world, will have lower prices than UK? 

It seems similarly inevitable that other countries will have different tax regimes than us, different educational standards, welfare standards, healthcare standards, planning controls, land costs, population densities etc etc.  Because of the cumulative effect all those differences, they will have different overall costs to us, and so be able to undercut our prices in many ways. 

Thus, we have for many years been a high cost economy, others have lower costs.  Therefore, just to argue, as you seem to, that because others have lower costs than we do, that makes the UK a "rip off" is, I think, misguided.  Surely one has to weigh up the whole package that this or that country offers?  If you want cheap, go to a cheap country, but do be aware of the price people in that country pay for its cheapness. 

The point of the EC (and I do not agree with the last two waves of enlargement, that were merely a spoiling tactic intended to prevent the alternative of "deepening") is that the developed countries will give the less developed a "leg up" the economic ladder.  This is achieved by some deliberate wealth transfers through subsidies etc, and by open trade between the countries, that are supposed to enable them to grow economically, whilst our economic growth slows a little to facilitate that.  Later, we are all supposed to benefit from the increased spending power their more active economies release. 

Throught history bits of commerce and industry have been upset by this, or that, external influence.  It wasn't Beeching who curtailed the railways, it was road vehicles and roads, just as the railways trashed the canals.  To each, its time.  They aren't "taking" "our markets", there is just a swing in where the economics lie.  After the Eastern European truckers have all got rich, and their governments have increased their taxes to pay for their new schools and hospitals, they'll lose their competitive edge and our truckers can go back to driving to Eastern Europe!

Now, if you want a real rip off, what about computer software and CDs, that sell in this country for about the same cost in Sterling as they sell for in the States in Dollars.  That's a real rip off!

[CliveH]

Brian

 

What I mean by your not reading what I say about the EU still sadly applies.

 

Your post reads clearly to me (but no doubt you will correct me if you think I am wrong) that you assumed I was anti the EU.

 

I believe my post makes it quite clear that this is NOT what I think.

 

Having travelled and worked a fair bit in Europe - I am staggered that we in the UK accept so much "Gold Plating" of the rule book by our Government and so much higher prices!

 

My "beef" is with the UK - not the EU.

 

 

I really do not know how else to put it!

 

 

The fact that East European drivers can came over and undercut our indiginous transport operators is an opportunity for them. But they can only do it because our fuel in the UK is so much more expensive!

 

A fact that we all know to be true and for why?

 

Have we got a far better road network in the UK?

 

Is our health service so much better than say France or Spain (believe me - it isn't!)

 

And i could go on.

 

But I need a beer in the Garden - Beer I bought in France at about 1/3 the cost of the same thing in the UK.

 

The fact that i am cheating Gordon in a small way makes it taste so much the better.

[Brian Kirby]

Clive

Since you asked, this was the bit that sounded to me somewhat anti EU.

"I said it is easy - the lorries and trucks are increasingly from the old eastern bloc and they all have extra tanks and fill up outside of the UK.

Considering we are in a "common trading block" - we really are suffering a rip-off Britain."

That sounded to me as though you thought the fault lay within the EU, the "common trading block" as above, for providing cheap drivers with cheap trucks and cheap fuel to invade our market.  I agree with you that the "fault", if fault it be, is home grown.

However, I really do not agree it is the case that just the cheap fuel gives Eastern Europeans a cost advantage; granted that is part of the picture.  I think you'll find the trucks are sold into their market for less, their road etc tax levels are lower, their insurance costs lower, their tyres and maintenance costs lower etc etc.  So, even if we reduced our fuel tax our truckers would still be at a substantial cost disadvantage.  This is an international road transport issue, not really a domestic one.

Now comes the difficult bit.  You ask, in relationship to Eastern European drivers, if we have a better road network.  The answer to that is emphatically yes.  Their roads are notoriously bad.  But you then switch to healthcare in France and Spain, presenting an area where we do worse, with the implication that this costs us more than it does the French or the Spanish.  Can't answer for Spain, but I can for France; and the answer is that the French have for years, and still do, spent far more than us on healthcare.  However, you were originally complaining UK prices are too high, not too low, which is why this is made so difficult.  If you really want French healthcare, you'll have to pay (higher) French prices for it.

If I'm honest, you do rather seem to me to be cherry picking around Europe looking at the things and prices that appeal to you, and not presenting the whole picture in the countries you've cited.  Problem is; countries come as whole packages, so you can’t have just a bit here and a bit there.

For example, one reason for lower Spanish costs might be that Spain spends less on its local government than we do in UK.  At least if it doesn't, I can't understand how they can have so many buildings that go up in the wrong place, or on the wrong land, or without permission, and get sold to unsuspecting buyers, and then have to be pulled down, but without compensating the buyers.  Understaffing: corruption: who knows?  How is this relevant?  Well, that inadequacy in Spanish building control is part (a small part) of the reason Spain looks cheap to live in and we look expensive.  Cheap in Spain gets you the Costas; expensive in UK gets you the Cotswolds; so to speak.  As I've said before, yer pays yer money.......! 

As I've also said before, I think the one issue that really disadvantages the UK competitively is the cost of land.  This inflates the price of everything we produce or do.  It is the main reason property in almost the whole of the rest of Europe, and a big chunk of the rest of the world, including the US, looks cheap to us.  It is also why so much that is produced or bought abroad seems cheaper than it is in the UK.  It becomes, in effect, a tax on GB Limited in everything that we do.  That, to me, is the true "rip off" in Britain but sadly, we all seem to think it's wonderful, because we think it's made us rich!

[CliveH]

Hi Brian

 

I am not sure planning is an especially good example to use seeing as the planning rules are to be relaxed in the UK!

 

It really is barmy that if I want to build a small extension onto my home - I have to go through the same planning process as a Shopping Mall or Industrial development. But that could change at long last it seems.

 

The Spanish system is not perfect either - But the French system is very good.

 

However, there Inheritance laws - being based upon a feudal system do cause problems - but they seem to manage.

 

The reference to transport systems in my post was not specifically at the old Eastern Block. The road and rail networks in Europe are, in my view, far superior on the whole to the UK’s. If you want to talk to anyone who can tell you why – find a relatively senior Construction Engineer and have a chat. They will tell you that UK Construction Engineers are well thought of in Europe. So why is it our bridges look the same as those in Russia and yet those in, say, France tend to inspire a “Wow!!!!!!” when you see them. Most Construction Engineers will tell you that our road structure is done on the lowest cost basis possible which means that things are rarely “fit for purpose” and so at best have to be upgraded and end up going way over budget – or more usually just left as a failed opportunity.

 

As for Health Care - Spanish HC is one of the least expensive in the world at circa 7% GDP, France is one of the more expensive at nearly 10% GDP.

 

What neither has is especially long waiting lists or dirty hospitals and consequently they do not have associated "Hospital Superbugs".

 

Portugal and Greece spend less than Spain on HC. This is mainly because aftercare is down to the “family” rather than the system in these countries. In France and Spain in particular, there is a good basic system (“Securite Sociele” in France) which is supplemented by additional private care if you want. It works by the individual paying for HC then either getting 35% reimbursed (in France) or more via a Healthcare plan.

 

Interestingly – this does mean that the French and Spanish systems (the two I know most about) are far, far less vulnerable than our NHS to “Healthcare Tourism”. This is because you have to pay for things first then get a reimbursement.

 

Interestingly as well, the French and Spanish prescription system works on the reimbursement system, whereby the cost of the item can be re-claimed.

 

Again compare that to our paying £6 plus an item for say an Asthma Inhaler that costs about £2 or a course of antibiotics that cost a few pence. Of course there are drugs that cost a whole lot more but for most of us the prescription charge is just another tax.

 

If you really feel that the Cotswolds are so wonderful (and they are!) that you are happy to pay more to be there than that is fine. But myself, having seen similarly beautiful places - Gers, France - Pecos de Europa, Spain - still wonder why it is that we pay as much a month for refuse collection as our Spanish cousins pay a year! And yet we in the UK do not re-cycle as much and are being threatened with memory chips in our wheely bins to check up on us and now fortnightly collections not weekly!

 

France has a system of toll roads that you can use if you wish and are truly excellent. It seems that we will have to pay a Congestion charge in most of our cities soon – not just London, as well as having a satellite tracking system that bills us for every mile we travel regardless of the quality of the road!

 

I am glad you like the UK – so do I – but I am not blind to its faults.

 

So where did you get those rose tinted glasses from Brian?

 

[bjphillips]

On the subject of recycling having separated tins ali & paper etc as requested by our local council the refuge lorry just chucks it all in together in the same truck & its crushed in including dozens of bottles & jars then I'm told when I phoned in about it that they do separate it once it arrives at the depot !!!!!!!!!!!Lord knows how thats achieved. Did anyone see that program last year when reporters traced hundreds of huge containers with all this rubbish being shipped to Chine & tipped on waste ground with the locals foraging amongst it for anything of value.I think we are all being conned .

[Brian Kirby]

Don't know where you think the rose tinted specs come in, Clive?  I can see all the disadvantages you see in UK, and the advantages you see elsewhere. 

It's just that, on balance, I think the UK offers a better all round package than most other countries, and I don't think the fact that some of the others are cheaper fully compensates.  I can see big problems with relaxations on the planning front, when one persons cheap extension becomes his/her neighbour's eyesore.  That might persuade me to emigrate!

For me, France and Germany would do nicely, the rest are either not yet sufficiently developed and civilised, or are overcrowded.

Why is UK more expensive?  I think, as I said, it is largely to with land costs.  Refuse disposal is cheap if you've bags of land to chuck it on, with lots of lovely old quarries to fill in.  We haven't, and we're getting more sophisticated about protecting our wildlife, our water reservoirs, and our environment.  We have a very high population density, and a quite high percentage of marginal land.  That places housing and farming demands in conflict for the better land.  This all conspires to push up land prices: and hence the cost of farm produce, housing, mortgages, shops, factories, power stations, roads, you name it.  I think we need to reduce our population to around 30 million, then we could all relax, and things would ease with reduced pressures on the land and resultingly lower costs. 

Now, how do we get rid of around 30 million people?  Export them to Spain?  How to do that?  I know, make the UK more expensive, so they all leave for a cheaper life.  Good luck with your house hunting!  :-)