enodreven Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 Hi, Is there any difference between Car-A-Tow and Towtal "A" frames and are there any other manufacturer that you would recommend. Please don't go into the legality issues, Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 Please don't go into the legality issues, Spoil sport! :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 Hi enodreven We use a Car-A-Tow but I have not seen the Towtal one to make a comparison. I know we don't want to get into the 'legality' of towing with an A-frame but there are certain things you should wish to see on any A-frame you get. Obviously there needs to be the usual links to brakes (I simply don't think there is a car that can be towed 'legally' on an unbraked frame as if brakes are fitted to the 'trailer' they need to be working - regardless of the weight) and lights but I would also want to see a breakaway cable, handbrake and either a jockey wheel or skid beneath the bar. The Car-A-Tow has these things. We tow a Toyota Yaris (occasionaly) and have had no problems so far - contrary to popular belief I can even reverse the car if necessary. Regards, David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 How do you make the brakes work effectively without the Yaris engine running? C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chas Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 What I cannot understand with A frames and the law is , if I was driving without any lights or numberplate, I dont think it would be too long before being pulled over by the law, and yet most experienced police drivers, who know the driving regulations backwards, do nothing in the case of a towing A frame. It seems so strange in a country with so many rules and regulations that there appears to be a complete blank of knowledge by our noble enforcers of the road. Perhaps its just one rule to many. Sorry Enodreven about going slightly off what you asked. chas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enodreven Posted June 21, 2007 Author Share Posted June 21, 2007 Don't worry Chas, its just IMPOSSIBLE not to slip into the legal situation when this subject is raised, even Mel B couldn't resist the temptation, LoL chas - 2007-06-21 7:32 AM What I cannot understand with A frames and the law is , if I was driving without any lights or numberplate, I dont think it would be too long before being pulled over by the law, and yet most experienced police drivers, who know the driving regulations backwards, do nothing in the case of a towing A frame. It seems so strange in a country with so many rules and regulations that there appears to be a complete blank of knowledge by our noble enforcers of the road. Perhaps its just one rule to many. Sorry Enodreven about going slightly off what you asked. chas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hymer634 Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Hi, just had a frame fitted to a Toyota Aygo. Towtal insisted that a brake cable could not be fitted and I had to have a Brake Buddy. Chris Cox was reluctant to wire into the Aygo lights. Pro Tow / Car a Tow did a very good job with brakes cabled and lights wired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enodreven Posted June 21, 2007 Author Share Posted June 21, 2007 Hi, Sounds like Car a Tow did a good job, if its not a rude question how much did it cost ? hymer634 - 2007-06-21 8:10 AM Hi, just had a frame fitted to a Toyota Aygo. Towtal insisted that a brake cable could not be fitted and I had to have a Brake Buddy. Chris Cox was reluctant to wire into the Aygo lights. Pro Tow / Car a Tow did a very good job with brakes cabled and lights wired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 My original question remains, how can a braked cable version work without the engine running? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel E Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Clive, The engine running is only necessary to get the brake servo working. The brakes will still work without servo assistance - they just need a lot more pedal pressure (except Citroen Xantias, C5s and C6s where the braking is hydraulic and no engine means absolutely no brakes at all). The question is whether you can achieve the legally required retardation without the servo. Car-a-Tow claim you can, but you'd have to test each car individually to be sure. But with 3 tonnes plus of motorhome in front, it's not impossible! Mel E ==== Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Hi Mel, I agree its not impossible but the pedal force required is unlikely to be achieved with the simple overrun front ends they use. Their are electrically powered systems to "liven up" the braking system but they require significant mods to the car. Its may well be more effective and easier to attach the overrun cable to the hand brake system? But would only 2 wheel braking be legal? Silly me, A frames arn,t legal anyway! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hymer634 Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Hi, the cost at Pro Tow/Car a Tow was £960 + an extra £20 for a jockey wheel. It's more expensive than Chris Cox, but I think it's a more professional looking job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARK3 Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 hi clive , there are on the market somewhere electric pumps specially for the job which take ten minutes to fit into the brake servo line can,t think where ive seen them. i use an adapted small electric pump with a switched 12 volt supply to provide servo assistance (not that the tow car realy needs it,but it can be switched on from the cab if i get a pull from our friends in blue) regards mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enodreven Posted June 21, 2007 Author Share Posted June 21, 2007 Thanks Hymer634, that's helpful to plan my budget for when we purchase our Fiat Panda. and thanks to everyone for not allowing the thread to digressing into a legal issue hymer634 - 2007-06-21 4:47 PM Hi, the cost at Pro Tow/Car a Tow was £960 + an extra £20 for a jockey wheel. It's more expensive than Chris Cox, but I think it's a more professional looking job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hymer634 Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Hi endroven . Car a Tow said that they could not wire in to the lights on the new Panda. They would supply a lighting board instead. You might want to check with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enodreven Posted June 21, 2007 Author Share Posted June 21, 2007 Thanks again I will give them a ring next week hymer634 - 2007-06-21 8:26 PM Hi endroven . Car a Tow said that they could not wire in to the lights on the new Panda. They would supply a lighting board instead. You might want to check with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enodreven Posted July 17, 2007 Author Share Posted July 17, 2007 Hi, Hymer634 I may be reading this wrong so sorry in advance if I am, but did you have the BrakeBuddy fitted ?? and if you did or anyone else has one fitted can you reverse with these or do they need disconnecting first ? Thanks again Brian hymer634 - 2007-06-21 8:10 AM Hi, just had a frame fitted to a Toyota Aygo. Towtal insisted that a brake cable could not be fitted and I had to have a Brake Buddy. Chris Cox was reluctant to wire into the Aygo lights. Pro Tow / Car a Tow did a very good job with brakes cabled and lights wired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olley Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 Hi guys, seen a new braking system being sold at the Lincoln show, it costs £1000 for fitting and the "A" frame. The guy fits an electric brake load sensing valve into the towing vehicle, and then uses a 13pin trailer socket to connect it to your car, just inside the bonnet is an electric brake servo connected into your existing brake system. He says that you can easily achieve 50% braking with this system, indeed he claims that if you do an emergency stop the car will too. Had a good look at the system and it seems well engineered, my only complaint is the new pipework inside the bonnet isn't very tidy. I think what this system does is to remove one of the issues over compliance with the regs, namely the brakes not coming on while you reverse, which does happen with an overrun system. It still leaves the issue of reversing any distance under control. He will also sell you a s/h car converted, at the show he's got a nice 06 Citroen Clio (7000 miles) for £6000 converted At this moment he doesn't have a system for air brakes but he reckons it's on the back burner. http://www.greenerplanetmotors.com/ Olley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 First of all the legal issues: the braking system of the trailer (for that is what your car becomes when attached to the rear of your motorhome by an "A" frame) MUST be operated by a MECHANICAL over-run device, not electrical to meet trailer regs (although I think we all know by now that a car on an "A" frame doesn't comply in several key areas anyway). Secondly I would want to see some proof of this man's qualifications as an engineer and some sort of type approval certification for his modified braking system. I doubt very much if he carries professional liability insurance to cover these mods for one simple reason, its too damned expensive! My local motor factors can no longer make brake pipes up to order because of insurance restrictions despite having been making them for over 15 years with not a single insurance issue arising. What testing has been done on this system and by what professional bodies? And that's all academic as its illegal anyway! 8-) D. Oh by the way, its Renault that build the Clio not Citroen, unless of course he's come up with some sort of hybrid between the two 8-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olley Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 Hi Dave, do I dectect a slight wobbly here? (lol) as my daughter would say "take a chill pill". All that you say may be correct, but I doubt many of the "A" frame makers have type approval and insurance either or are qualified engineers. So he's no different to them. As I said its well engineered (I did a 5 year apprenticeship and 25 years in the trade, so have some idea what the word means) But his pipework needs tidying up. Irespective of anybodys views, people will continue to buy them and have them fitted. (Unless plod starts stopping people) so having a rant about the legalities seems pointless. Olley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 No Olley, not having a "rant" at all, just pointing out a few facts of life regarding towing cars on "A" frames and the possible legal implications of modifications to the braking system of your tow car by someone who is possibly not qualified, skilled or insured for such work. If you wish to take the risk that's up to you but if anyone else is considering it I think they should be fully aware of all the facts first. The fact that so many people choose to ignore what is now quite widespread knowledge regarding the legal issues of "A" frame towing is up to them but if an ordinary "Joe Bloggs" with no engineering experience was to buy one of these systems and it failed who does he come back to? D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enodreven Posted July 17, 2007 Author Share Posted July 17, 2007 Hi, Thanks Olley for the suggestion and link I will try to have a look later Please don't let this digress into the legal issue, now back to the 2nd question I raised can you reverse the vehicle with a BrakeBuddy fitted, I think my question is do the brakes go on with a Brakebuddy when you start to reverse ?? does anyone know ?? Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enodreven Posted July 17, 2007 Author Share Posted July 17, 2007 Hi, Dave I read the point you raised regarding the braking system employed must be mechanical, how would that work with the Brake Assist system on my Mercedes from what I can understand it uses an electrical system to apply the brakes in an emergency situation and if its good enough form Mercedes surly an electrical system would be good enough for a trailer ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 Brian you are talking about two separate entities there. The assist system you refer to will start to apply the brakes only in an emergency situation, it is not the sole means of applying the brakes. Trailer regs clearly state the brakes must be operated by a mechanical over-run device and the Brake Buddy does not meet this criteria. Then again as so many choose to ignore the legal issues of "A" frame towing why would a little detail like an illegal braking system make any difference? D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyishuk Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 (?) With the sort of prices quoted, plus only a little more, it seem possible to get a car trailer which would forefill all the legal criteria and probably be little more expensive on the ferry (?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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