Bi-Lateral Visa Waiver. French Response.

[simians]

I've made a rudimentary forum search and noted that there's been some interest in gaining extra time in the EU Schengen area over the standard 90/180  3rd Country allocation. Specifically those posts referencing citizens of 3rd Countries having Bi-Lateral Visa Waiver Agreements with certain EU countries, and holding a current passport for same.

Anyway I've recently made enquiries of the French Consulate, they've responded. Attached is a copy of the salient section ;

 

Edited April 5, 2023 by simians

[simians]

Sorry gone and lost the bloody scan! 

[Barryd999]

Await with bated breath!  I know some motorhomers have been successful with a six month French visa but its a right faff on.

[simians]

Dunno about bated breath, the French aren't too sure either,

Edited April 5, 2023 by simians

[Barryd999]

Six month French visa it is then if you want to stay longer.

[simians]

1 hour ago, Barryd999 said:

Six month French visa it is then if you want to stay longer.

Practical eg.      TBH not worth reading unless a Waiver hoper.

I enter France from UK and passport stamped. I spend a 7 days or so traversing France to get to Spain. At the border between Spain/France there's no provision to get passport stamped for exit from France or entry into Spain. I then spend 90 days in Spain max. no longer, because I would then be in breach of the Spanish 90/180 allocation. I then return to the UK via France, again no passport date stamping. at border. Until the departure point for UK there they can ask where have you been for 90+7+14 days, I reply, Spain for 90 days here's receipts for fuel, parking, (ie convincing evidence) and France a total of 21 days. Border Policeman says you good little tourist you have not been in France for more than 90 days and I care b****r all that you spent 90 days or even more in Spain.

This is more or less the example quoted in the email missive from the Consulate I've posted. All seems to predicate on convincing the Border Official by way of a paper trail. Also reading between the lines there appears to be some anomalies, for instance they state that the French Border Police has sole authority whether to allow/disallow entry into France, but preface this with the statement "today there is no more border control between the Schengen countries" so how are they going apply this when say entering Fr. from Esp.

Anyway I'm going to give this a go late in the year, my extra days requirement are modest hence I reckon plausible? C'est La Vie as they say in French prisons.

[weldted]

The 90/180 rule is nothing to do with the EU it is the Schengen Zone, whilst we were members of the (club) it was not enforced. If you live in any country within the EU you are allowed only 90 days in any other EU country. As the UK is not now part of the EU you are only allowed to spend 90 out of 180 in the Schengen Zone regardless of which country or countries you spend the time in.

[Brian Kirby]

But, when your passport is stamped on entry to France, it will automatically also record your entry into Schengen, and it is Schengen, and not France, that imposes the 90/180 days limit.  So, having been stamped into France/Schengen your Schengen limit will follow you into Spain (or whatever other Schengen state) so, were the Spanish (or whosever) police to challenge you and demand your passport, they will look for the dated French entry stamp to see how long you have spent in Schengen from that date, and also for any other passport stamps recording of your presence in Schengen in the preceding 180 days.  If the total exceeds 90 days, wherever in the Schengen area you have been, you will have overstayed.

As the consulate says, the bi-lateral is between New Zealand and France only, and predates the Schengen agreement.  They seem also to imply that it remains unclear, post the Schengen agreement of 14/6/85, whether it supersedes, or is superseded by, the bi-lateral.  After all, as a New Zealander, under either/both you seem to have the same right to spend 90 days in any 180 days in France but, under Schengen, this extends to include all Schengen countries, whether or not EU members.  If that is correct, it is a bit difficult to see what the bi-lateral actually brings to the party.

You say above, "I then return to the UK via France, again no passport date stamping at border." - but there is.  Ours were stamped both in, and out, last autumn.  Based on that experience, your passport will be stamped as you leave France, just as it was when you entered.  Until ETIAS is introduced, that is how your total time spent in Schengen will be calculated.

New Zealanders, as are UK citizens, are visa exempt, but are limited to the Schengen 90/180 days limit.  The list of exempt and and non-exempt countries is here: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32018R1806 

It seems to me that the consulate may have somewhat "exceeded their brief" in the inference of how you could border hop and exceed the 90 days limit.  I think I'd treat that aspect of what they say with some caution, and try to get clarification on whether they are, actually, correct, before putting it into practise. 

I think the only way you could do as they suggest would be to leave the Schengen area, getting your passport stamped out as you go.  However even doing that, you don't escape the 90 days limit, because it will be stamped again when you finally re-enter Schengen en-route for home, and yet again at the port from which depart the Schengen area.  Each time the 90 days in 180 days calculations will be repeated.

Bearing in mind that Romania and Bulgaria are the only EU member states not in Schengen, and that Switzerland, Iceland and Norway 'though not in the EU are in Schengen, you are left with the choice of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Serbia, Montenegro, FYROM, Albania, Kosovo, Ukraine and Moldova as the countries with accessible land borders for which no visa is required.  Otherwise, you'll need visas for each state.

[simians]

That the 90/180 rule is a Schengen rule is a given. But doesn't necessarily apply to holders of 3rd countries with historical Visa Waiver Agreements such as New Zealand. 

In my email enquiry to the French Consulate I set out my beliefs that this Waiver condition has never been rescinded or revoked. Note the email response received from the French Consulates office which virtually confirms my own assertations, in as much as anyone can be certain, given that the French do not seem to be 100% on this approach themselves. But they do acknowledge that it would be sensible to keep receipts etc to show evidence of dated location to the Border Police.

I should perhaps add that I'm dual national and hold a British passport in addition, not that it adds anything to the weight of argument as it were. I also hold a red  I.D. card for a territory presently negotiating special Schengen Area  agreements which should have been finalised a year back.

[simians]

1 hour ago, Brian Kirby said:

But, when your passport is stamped on entry to France, it will automatically also record your entry into Schengen, and it is Schengen, and not France, that imposes the 90/180 days limit.  So, having been stamped into France/Schengen your Schengen limit will follow you into Spain (or whatever other Schengen state) so, were the Spanish (or whosever) police to challenge you and demand your passport, they will look for the dated French entry stamp to see how long you have spent in Schengen from that date, and also for any other passport stamps recording of your presence in Schengen in the preceding 180 days.  If the total exceeds 90 days, wherever in the Schengen area you have been, you will have overstayed.

As the consulate says, the bi-lateral is between New Zealand and France only, and predates the Schengen agreement.  They seem also to imply that it remains unclear, post the Schengen agreement of 14/6/85, whether it supersedes, or is superseded by, the bi-lateral.  After all, as a New Zealander, under either/both you seem to have the same right to spend 90 days in any 180 days in France but, under Schengen, this extends to include all Schengen countries, whether or not EU members.  If that is correct, it is a bit difficult to see what the bi-lateral actually brings to the party.

You say above, "I then return to the UK via France, again no passport date stamping at border." - but there is.  Ours were stamped both in, and out, last autumn.  Based on that experience, your passport will be stamped as you leave France, just as it was when you entered.  Until ETIAS is introduced, that is how your total time spent in Schengen will be calculated.

 

It seems to me that the consulate may have somewhat "exceeded their brief" in the inference of how you could border hop and exceed the 90 days limit.  I think I'd treat that aspect of what they say with some caution, and try to get clarification on whether they are, actually, correct, before putting it into practise. 

I think the only way you could do as they suggest would be to leave the Schengen area, getting your passport stamped out as you go.  However even doing that, you don't escape the 90 days limit, because it will be stamped again when you finally re-enter Schengen en-route for home, and yet again at the port from which depart the Schengen area.  Each time the 90 days in 180 days calculations will be repeated.

 

Actually New Zealand also has a Visa Waiver Agreement with Spain, and a few other Schengen Area countries. The stamping I was referring to is the border between Spain/France, Schengen area countries so no border control. Of course when leaving France (ie a Schengen area country) for the UK then passport is stamped, I've  plenty already acquired even through lockdown. Legally I might add.

Entry into France is under Visa Waiver Agreement auspices, Entry into France date stamped of course . Entry into Spain is unstamped ie unrecorded no border controls, however the Police in Spain may ask as I trundle around Mercadona 'oi you' how long have you been here? '89 days your highness' I reply, to which he says, but you entered Schengen 100 days ago at Dieppe 'yes your highness say I,' I'm permitted to under VWA article (20) 1947. Comprendi senor? And here's French emailed advice re. entry to France, stating I should retain receipts for accom. fuel etc possibly phone records as location length of stay evidence and provided I get through FR. within the 90 in total to be duly stamped out at Dieppe. And whistle as I go casually on my way.🙂 

I will be emailling the Spanish Authorities with belts and braces overkill in mind. With hopefully a more assertive response than the French effort.

 

 

 

Edited April 5, 2023 by simians

[simians]

British Multi Residents - Written Evidence To The House of Lords UKE0067   27th Oct. 2022

To Whom it May Concern,

I attach extract of above submission to their Lordships. Now while this evidence may not have been appraised or endorsed by a top flight firm of Immigration and International Lawyers, I would think the matter in question (Visa Waiver Agreements) would have been well researched by this affected group considering their vested interest in pursuing a favourable outcome. I also have a copy of an Italian Embassy Wellington statement, addressed "To Whom It May Concern" the contents of which confirm and add weight to my former stated  conclusions. Personally I'll be accepting all this collective evidence as sufficient mandate to extend the 90/180 days restriction.  

[Brian Kirby]

Ah, now I understand.  The new Zealand bi-laterals are not limited to France, as I had understood from your earlier post, but include also Belgium, Germany, Greece, Spain, Italy, Luxembourg, Hungary, Netherlands, Austria, Portugal, Finland, Sweden, Iceland, Norway, and Switzerland.  Game, set, and match, methinks!  🙂  There's not much of Europe left, after that lot are all factored in!  All grant 90 days right of residence, and a five (Germany, Italy, Austria, Sweden, and Iceland) three months.  How very interesting!

Bit galling that HMG didn't replicate that on our behalves when negotiating Brexit!

The dates the NZ bi-laterals came into force are also interesting, as I would have thought that similar agreements would have existed between UK and a similar list of countries, at least up to the date we joined the EU, but more probably up to 14/6/85 when Schengen came into force.

Perhaps they do, but no-one wants to mention that.  After all, as seems to be suggested by the French consulate, each bi-lateral grants every NZ passport holder the right to stay in the host country for the period stated so, if you leave that country within the agreed limit, you can indeed hop over the border to the next country with a similar bi-lateral.

What isn't explained is how, when you try to re-enter the UK after your (17 countries x 90 days each / 365 = 4.2 years trip), you demonstrate to the French Police aux Frontières that your visits have been under the various bi-laterals, and should not be subject to the overall 90/180 Schengen rule!  It seems you'd probably have to visit a government office on entry to each state to get documentary recognition that your stay is under the relevant bi-lateral.  Either that, or a passport stamp on entry/exit to/from each state to prove where you'd been, for how long, and under which bi-lateral.  Annoying admin for someone, but surely possible - albeit with a bit of persistence.

[simians]

1 hour ago, Brian Kirby said:

What isn't explained is how, when you try to re-enter the UK after your (17 countries x 90 days each / 365 = 4.2 years trip), you demonstrate to the French Police aux Frontières that your visits have been under the various bi-laterals, and should not be subject to the overall 90/180 Schengen rule!  It seems you'd probably have to visit a government office on entry to each state to get documentary recognition that your stay is under the relevant bi-lateral.  Either that, or a passport stamp on entry/exit to/from each state to prove where you'd been, for how long, and under which bi-lateral.  Annoying admin for someone, but surely possible - albeit with a bit of persistence.

I attempted to personalise the thread content in order to cut down on the typing! So confined it to France and Spain, the countries I'm most concerned about on the VWAgreement issue. I'm as sure as I can be, that evidence of where I've been can be shown by keeping fuel, campsite, supermarket receipts, atm readouts in fact anything dated and showing name etc. The email received from the French Consulate (copy above) even suggests doing this, acknowledging the fact that borders between Schengen countries are unmanned as far as having a Border Police presence. I've never seen any. Sure there may be Guardia Civil, National or Local Police in the vicinity, just as there might be anywhere throughout the country. 

Yes I totally concur ,the 90/180 days could and should have been considered as part of B****t agreed conditions, and should have been reciprocal. As it is, ironically most of Europe and various other territories and countries can enter the UK for < 6 months. But I suppose that's what we'd expect when, an oven ready deal is cooked up by the b****y turkey. 

I'd have preferred to travel with a UK passport under right and proper official 180 days authorisation, rather than reliant on my NZ passport and making reference to near forgotten historical agreements. Would have saved us 2 x £90 for a start, and the hassle 😭 

Of course I should be grateful for having (hopefully) a way round the issue, whilst others have to grin and bear it, in the hopes that the government gets round to agreeing with the Schengen area countries the 180 days that they themselves have granted for just about half the world & pdq !

Edited April 6, 2023 by simians

[Brian Kirby]

Can't argue with any of that!  😄

Good luck whatever you do.  I'm now going to see if I can find any UK bi-laterals! 🙂 

[Hans]

That was Nice Reading.

 

[silverback]

Just as a bit of an aside, my mate, has just left Spain (on the santander ferry) 44 days over the 90, the Spanish customs just stamped the passport and waved him through! he has been home 2 weeks now and not heard anything yet, I think though if that had been in France (calais) it might have been different

jonathan

[Barryd999]

I was sceptical about this as I thought no countries had a right to more than 90 days in Schengen but heres a good read from a New Zealander thats got the T shirt. 

https://brenontheroad.com/new-zealand-bilateral-visa-waivers-schengen/#:~:text=They can stay in the,entry into the Schengen area.

He seriously did his homework and pulled it off it seems.

Whether the new ETIAS system will change all that I dont know.

Kind of irrelevant to us though as most of us are UK citizens. Unless Brian has managed to unearth some ancient long forgotten UK Bi lateral agreements. 

[simians]

Published 2016. I was unaware of that info. The existence of certain Visa Waiver Agreements between various countries have been quoted here and there on the 'net for years. I've posted once or twice myself. However I've not found reasonably authenticated evidence of anyone exercising these Rights since "B****t Jan 30th 2020, in fact I've not discovered any examples pre B****t either! Hence emailing the French Consuls Office.

Without going into boring detail, I can say that the Border Police at Dieppe would not commit themselves to permitting extra days, even at the covid lockdown crisis kick off. Neither would they advise on likely penalties. Initially  I made enquiries in southern Spain on obtaining a Force Majeure pass from the Dieppe Maires office and would be depending on that to some extent, which sods law was coivd shut down when I got there !  International Border Rules and Regulation are flexible, and probably only fully understood by specialised lawyers, I think most of us are aware of this?

Because I have familial reasons (over and above the more usual tourism reasons) for not getting myself lumbered with a few years banishment from the Schengen Area, hence the importance of mitigating any likelyhood that the Border Cops will apply their own personal interpretation of the Agreement.

[Brian Kirby]

On 4/9/2023 at 10:17 AM, Barryd999 said:

...........................................Unless Brian has managed to unearth some ancient long forgotten UK Bi lateral agreements. 

Well, maybe  😄  I have had some success in unearthing a series of bilaterals between UK and Austria, Belgium, Denmark, France, Greece, Iceland, Italy, Luxembourg, Monaco, Netherlands, Norway, Spain, Sweden and Switzerland.  They date from between 1947 (mostly) and 1968.  They are .pdf copies of simple exchanges of letters between Governments, and appear to have come from the UK government archive.  They are nevertheless allocated as UK Government Treaties.

I found them on this Wiki: https://tinyurl.com/2aa5wlr9  Just scroll down until you get to the section headed "References and notes" and then scroll down that looking for "UK Treaties online".  Follow those links and when that page opens, look for a link Titled "Treaty Series TS*****" and follow that to the document.

It seems you can carry out further searches within the UK Treaties online website, but I couldn't understand how the search worked.  Possibly Boolean, maybe SQL, neither of which I know.  However, for anyone able to work the website, it uses something called "Wayback Machine", which also has a search function that I couldn't work!

The one agreement I was particularly interested to find, but couldn't, was for Germany, which I suspect is complicated by its immediate post war status.

Given the dates when these bilaterals were negotiated I suspect there will be others (e.g. Portugal?) from that period.  They were certainly quick setting them up, with the agreements coming into force within a few days of the exchange of letters. 

Strangely, as written, they are have few caveats and no expiry date, just that holders of valid passports could visit the respective countries without needing a visa, and could apparently stay as long as they wished, including working.  The agreements could be revoked by simply serving notice on the other contracting party that whichever government wanted to withdraw.

I suspect they will have been modified over time, possibly with limits on durations of stay etc. (of those I found, only for UK/Austria: 3 months for a "visitors passport", or 6 months for a full passport) being added in similar fashion.  So, finding out whether they are still in force would necessitate contacting the embassy of each state in turn and asking.  If in force, being able to present conclusive records of which countries have been visited, between when and when, and under which bilateral agreement/s, together with a copy/ies of the embassies confirmation that the agreement is still in force, seems essential to avoiding being accused of overstaying one's allowed time in Schengen at the exit port border controls.

Just don't expect to happy border guard when you hit him with that lot!  😄

[simians]

Interesting bit of web disinterment there Brian.

I wonder if these Agreements betwixt the UK and various European countries and now part of Schengen were revoked at B****t Withdrawal time? The email attachment 'British Multi Residents presentation to the House of Lords' in my earlier post alludes (I think) to this, by stating the situation to be 'A British Problem'.

I would have also thought that this BMR group with its obvious self interest, surely must have approached individual Schengen countries and been given negative responses as to whether any of these Agreements were currently in force, and moreover likely to permit them a 180 days stay.

[Brian Kirby]

Short answer - don't know.  🙂 However, I've contacted the "Europa" publications department (who publish the list of third country bilaterals), and pointed out to them that there are bilaterals between the UK and the various EU/Schengen states as my list above, and asked them why the these are omitted from their list.  I have an acknowledgement promising a more detailed response.  We shall see!

I've also copied that BMR group submission to the HoL and will see if I can find an e-mail address for them.  If I can, I'll contact them and ask if they are aware of the bilaterals, and have already determined that none remain extant.  They seem a very well organised and impressively resourced and informed group, so your assumption may well be correct.  OTOH, the bilaterals are pretty well buried, so they may not have become aware of their existence.  Worth a try.

Also, as the UK never joined Schengen, it seems just possible that these bilaterals were never declared at the time Schengen came into force - because they would have been irrelevant - so may not have surfaced as an issue during the Brexit negotiations.

[simians]

The HoL would seem to be the prime resource to approach in the expectation of a yea or nay definitive decision with respect to this issue. After all some of them were probably on the front benches in 1947 and possibly awake taking notes 🙂 

I seem to recall that in the intervening years some Bi-Lat VW Agreements must have been amended or revoked, IIRC eg. Australia's list of Agreement countries for one, appeared to get shorter over the years. As you say these Bi-Lats may be buried, but perhaps that doesn't necessarily mean they couldn't be invoked.  Realistically I couldn't see the French acceding to this, and somehow bureaucrats whether French or UK, admitting to an oversight? Think of all the amending of documents, publications and changes to the ETIAS software, they don't enjoy wasting money LoL. 

As you say, worth a try whatever the outcome, if only of academic interest.   Should you get a positive result to your enquiries, I estimate there would be enough gratitude shown by all those UK citizens wishing to benefit from Visa Waiver Agreements, that the Rt. Hon. R. Sunak would feel obligated to nominate your own appointment to The House of Lords. £323+ per diem attendance allowance, and a free motorhome parking place.🙂  

Edited April 11, 2023 by simians

[Barryd999]

Very interesting indeed Brian. Will take a look myself when I have some time. Like several days by the sound off it.  Keep us informed.

[Brian Kirby]

23 hours ago, simians said:

..................................Should you get a positive result to your enquiries, I estimate there would be enough gratitude shown by all those UK citizens wishing to benefit from Visa Waiver Agreements, that the Rt. Hon. R. Sunak would feel obligated to nominate your own appointment to The House of Lords. £323+ per diem attendance allowance, and a free motorhome parking place.🙂  

Steady on!!  :-D

[Brian Kirby]

I didn't get any response from the British Multi Residents.  I simply did a "Google" search, but was only able able to find one person, by name of Andrew Hesselden, who is obviously a member, but it seems they communicate mainly on Facebook, which I don't use.  I guess my query went into his Junk box.

If any Facebook users on here would care to look them up and make contact with them, I'll happily explain to them what I found, and where, so that they can have a look for themselves - or they could be directed to this string.