Rouen

[Derek Uzzell]

1 hour ago, ChasB said:

... I know part of my route is through the LEZ but my Adria has a Crit'air vignette 2. To avoid any confusion I take it I comply?

Yes.

Ignoring 'exemptions', at present the minimum Crit'Air sticker for driving in the Rouen ZFE is a "3".

The table below summarises what this means vehicle-wise.

[Brian Kirby]

6 hours ago, ChasB said:

Brian

My route south through Rouen is A28, N28 under the tunnel towards the Seine, but not crossing over. I then turn left onto the D6015 to Le Port Saint-Ouen and on to Igoville before crossing the Seine at  Pont-de-l'Arche. I know part of my route is through the LEZ but my Adria has a Crit'air vignette 2. To avoid any confusion I take it I comply?

Regards Chas

Chas, I think Derek has already answered your question above.   I have used your route numerous times, not to avoid the LEZ, but for convenience.  It infringes the LEZ boundary, but this will not, at present, affect your van, any more than it affected ours (also Crit'Air 2) last autumn.

This string was started by those whose Crit'Air status exceeded 3, which are currently banned within the LEZ, and would be fined for entering it.  Hence the interest in routes that would not involve entering the Rouen LEZ boundary.

As your van has a Crit'Air 2 sticker, it remains "legal" within the Rouen LEZ, so the specific derogation for motorhomes, and the intricacies of the "VASP Caravane" classification, are not relevant to your van.  You could, as I understand the present state of the legislation, drive straight through central Rouen without penalty - though whether you would wish to do so is a different matter. 😄 

[teccer1234]

2 hours ago, Brian Kirby said:

This string was started by those whose Crit'Air status exceeded 3, which are currently banned within the LEZ, and would be fined for entering it. 

 Hi Brian

my Hymer van has a crit'air sticker of 4 but until june 2024 I can still drive through as explained before so are not currently banned 🫠

[Brian Kirby]

14 hours ago, teccer1234 said:

 Hi Brian

my Hymer van has a crit'air sticker of 4 but until june 2024 I can still drive through as explained before so are not currently banned 🫠

You should, indeed, be able to do so.

Unless I'm mistaken, your van is a Hymer B694, 7.3 metres long, 4,400kg MAM, and Crit'Air 4.  If entering the Rouen LEZ you must have your Crit'Air sticker clearly visible on the windscreen, as failing to do so may in itself incur a fine.  

There will be no disguising that your van is A) a motorhome (autocaravane) and b) exceeds 3.5 tonnes MAM (first because of its size, and second because the Hymer plate will say so).

It therefor seems that, as it is Crit'Air 4, you will be wholly reliant on the derogation for "legal" entry into the LEZ - in which case I think it would be wise to check that your V5C registration document correctly states, at field D5, that it is a "Motor Caravan".  Visually, this is obvious, so I can't imagine any reason for its body type being queried, but were you to infringe a traffic instruction, a speed limit, or even be involved in a minor accident (even if your van were rear-ended), and the police were involved, I can imagine that an amount of "i" dotting and "t" crossing may then be involved and the V5C checked - if only for the purposes of the officer's report.  Happy travels!  🙂 

[teccer1234]

2 hours ago, Brian Kirby said:

You should, indeed, be able to do so.

Unless I'm mistaken, your van is a Hymer B694, 7.3 metres long, 4,400kg MAM, and Crit'Air 4.  If entering the Rouen LEZ you must have your Crit'Air sticker clearly visible on the windscreen, as failing to do so may in itself incur a fine.  

There will be no disguising that your van is A) a motorhome (autocaravane) and b) exceeds 3.5 tonnes MAM (first because of its size, and second because the Hymer plate will say so).

It therefor seems that, as it is Crit'Air 4, you will be wholly reliant on the derogation for "legal" entry into the LEZ - in which case I think it would be wise to check that your V5C registration document correctly states, at field D5, that it is a "Motor Caravan".  Visually, this is obvious, so I can't imagine any reason for its body type being queried, but were you to infringe a traffic instruction, a speed limit, or even be involved in a minor accident (even if your van were rear-ended), and the police were involved, I can imagine that an amount of "i" dotting and "t" crossing may then be involved and the V5C checked - if only for the purposes of the officer's report.  Happy travels!  🙂 

Thanks Brian

I've traveled through Rouen about 50 times on the eastern side of the river and had planned to do so again for the last time this year but friends have gone round Rouen via Yevtot, maybe a tad longer but they found quicker and easier, only 2 big roundabouts, big wide roads etc rather than lights/roundabouts/narrow roads/much traffic,etc so I'll be going via Yevtot this year and see what it's like

[Derek Uzzell]

5 hours ago, Brian Kirby said:

...There will be no disguising that your van is A) a motorhome (autocaravane) and b) exceeds 3.5 tonnes MAM (first because of its size, and second because the Hymer plate will say so)...

and thirdly because it will be tastefully decorated with 'Angles Morts' signs.

[onecal]

Hi

Yes those red/ yellow/ black  signs are a big giveaway .lol 

[teccer1234]

43 minutes ago, Derek Uzzell said:

and thirdly because it will be tastefully decorated with 'Angles Morts' signs.

😆😆😆

[Brian Kirby]

I was a bit surprised by the Yvetot suggestion, because it inserts a fairly substantial "hook" to the west, so began mucking around with MS Autoroute.

What emerged are three possible routes to Perpignan/Le Perthus, all toll-free except the Millau viaduct (avoidable by going through Millau), all avoiding the Rouen LEZ and Paris, all calculated using Microsoft Autoroute 2012 (so now out of date in some respects), all with the same routing preferences selected, all based on motorhome-realistic driving speeds.

So, for just for comparison, they are:

1, East of Paris, via Dunkirk, Lille, Maubeuge, Reims, Troyes, Nevers, Clermont-Ferrand, Millau, Beziers, Perpignan and Le Perthus (Spanish border).  791 miles / 16 hrs 20 mins driving.

 2, 2 West of Rouen, via Abbeville, Yvetot, Incarville, Evreux, Dreux, Chartres, Orleans, Nevers, Clermont-Ferrand, and then as route 1 above.  789 miles / 16 hrs 10 mins driving.

3, Between Rouen and Paris, via Abbeville, then down the A28 to exit 10, then via Mantes-la-Jolie, Dreux, Chartres, Orleans, Vierzon, Bourges, Clermont-Ferrand, and then as route 1 above.  743 miles / 16 hours 30 mins driving.

I’ve been using Autoroute for preliminary route planning for years – since well before I got the 2012 edition.  Despite some of the roads having now changed it nevertheless gives a pretty reliable “skeleton” route from A to B.  I then flesh this out by adding such as camp sites, re-fuelling stops, and supermarket visits, which inevitably introduce some adjustments, and then load the results onto my sat-nav, with its fully up to date mapping, and check the results using Google Earth.  This has served us well since 2005, when we got our first van.

All the above routes represent is, therefore, the “skeleton” stage.  I’m not suggesting that they are suitable to adopt as driving instructions before they have been populated with the necessary intermediate stops, and some inevitable corrections for new/modified roads.  But, see what you think.

What struck me was the similarity in driving times on all routes, but more particularly, the advantage in distance of route 3, of an average 47 miles which, with a 4.5 tonne 3 litre van, must be worth about 2 gallons of fuel - and all for an average extra 10 minutes driving!  I think that would be my choice!  😄  Good luck.

Edited July 16, 2023 by Brian Kirby

[teccer1234]

On 16/07/2023 at 16:36, Brian Kirby said:

I was a bit surprised by the Yvetot suggestion, because it inserts a fairly substantial "hook" to the west, so began mucking around with MS Autoroute.

What emerged are three possible routes to Perpignan/Le Perthus, all toll-free except the Millau viaduct (avoidable by going through Millau), all avoiding the Rouen LEZ and Paris, all calculated using Microsoft Autoroute 2012 (so now out of date in some respects), all with the same routing preferences selected, all based on motorhome-realistic driving speeds.

So, for just for comparison, they are:

1, East of Paris, via Dunkirk, Lille, Maubeuge, Reims, Troyes, Nevers, Clermont-Ferrand, Millau, Beziers, Perpignan and Le Perthus (Spanish border).  791 miles / 16 hrs 20 mins driving.

 2, 2 West of Rouen, via Abbeville, Yvetot, Incarville, Evreux, Dreux, Chartres, Orleans, Nevers, Clermont-Ferrand, and then as route 1 above.  789 miles / 16 hrs 10 mins driving.

3, Between Rouen and Paris, via Abbeville, then down the A28 to exit 10, then via Mantes-la-Jolie, Dreux, Chartres, Orleans, Vierzon, Bourges, Clermont-Ferrand, and then as route 1 above.  743 miles / 16 hours 30 mins driving.

I’ve been using Autoroute for preliminary route planning for years – since well before I got the 2012 edition.  Despite some of the roads having now changed it nevertheless gives a pretty reliable “skeleton” route from A to B.  I then flesh this out by adding such as camp sites, re-fuelling stops, and supermarket visits, which inevitably introduce some adjustments, and then load the results onto my sat-nav, with its fully up to date mapping, and check the results using Google Earth.  This has served us well since 2005, when we got our first van.

All the above routes represent is, therefore, the “skeleton” stage.  I’m not suggesting that they are suitable to adopt as driving instructions before they have been populated with the necessary intermediate stops, and some inevitable corrections for new/modified roads.  But, see what you think.

What struck me was the similarity in driving times on all routes, but more particularly, the advantage in distance of route 3, of an average 47 miles which, with a 4.5 tonne 3 litre van, must be worth about 2 gallons of fuel - and all for an average extra 10 minutes driving!  I think that would be my choice!  😄  Good luck.

Hi Brian thanks for your info but I'll say one thing, they all go over the millau bridge (I can't go through Millau as 4.5t) last time years ago they put the price of the bridge from 9 euros to 33 euros (going down 9 euros coming back 33 euros)  so we decided to look for another way down and back, we went as far as you said on No 2 until we get to the turning to Clermont Ferrand thats where we go straight on towards Toulouse  then to perpignan, not many more miles and we save fuel by not going over the Massif Central (never ending) timewise not a great deal of difference also by not paying the toll over the bridge we use less on tolls.

so this year we'll be using the detour via Yevtot back onto the A 13 as usual.

[Derek Uzzell]

If I remember correctly, the reason for the difference in the Millau Viaduct toll-charge was not due to the price having been radically increased during your trip, but because you were (wrongly) charged the Category 2 rate going south and charged the correct rate for your motorhome (Category 4?) going back northwards.

The autoroute vehicle categories are shown here

and a similar scenario was mentioned by 'whisturx' on September 26 2010 in this forum thread

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/topic/18985-millau-bridge-tolls/

I don't know off-hand what the Millau Viaduct tolls (same price travelling south or north) are for Categories 3 and 4, but apparently the 2023 Category 2 toll is €8.60 (16 September to 14 June) or €10.80 (15 June to 15 September).

[teccer1234]

we've gone over the bridge more than a dozen times and always been charged around 9 euros but the last time an arab attendant charge us 33 euros and also gave us a leaflet explaining the tolls, (you are correct with the Categorys) so we were happy to have had cheap crossings before but decided to try a different route in future, glad we did because it was a better route avoiding the Massif Central and snow at times

[Brian Kirby]

20 hours ago, teccer1234 said:

Hi Brian thanks for your info but I'll say one thing, they all go over the millau bridge (I can't go through Millau as 4.5t) .....................................................

I think this may be incorrect.  🙂  I've been exploring Millau routes, and so far as I can see there are (confusingly) twp levels of weight exclusion at Millau.  First, there as an outright prohibition of all vehicles over 3.5 tonnes entering the town - except for deliveries.  Second, there is a prohibition on commercial vehicles on certain routes that traverse the town (the sign carries a symbol of a box van) with the added word "EN TRANSIT" beneath it.  This prohibition, therefore, does not apply to vehicles other than commercial vehicles, and does not apply to vehicles that are not transiting.  So your motorhome would be legal on these routes on the ground that it is not a commercial vehicle.  To this could be added that were you to overnight on one of the several campsites in Millau, you would not be transiting, so would also be legal on that ground. 

Finally, there is a designated route for Commercial HGVs that allows leaving the A75 at exit 45 for Millau, and then following the D911 down to the "Hauts de Cres roundabout" where be careful to take the third exit signed D911 - Millau Centre, Montpellier and "Campings", and continue to what is locally called the "Geant" (though now branded Casino, which has good parking and is huge) roundabout, where take the second exit (the first is for the supermarket) signed as above, and continue on down the D911 to a further roundabout at the D911/D809 junction, where right (first exit) onto D809, also signed for Millau Centre and Montpellier and follow D809, straight on at next roundabout to further roundabout signed "left" for A75 Montpellier, Albi, St Affrique, where turn left D809 which swings right onto the Tarn embankment and through a further three roundabouts, and over the Pont du Larzac to a further roundabout where second exit (left) to continue on D809 up to re-join the A75 at Junction 47, and you're done!

So, transiting Millau in a "heavy" motorhome is apparently, from Google Earth and local reports, legally possible - on which assumption I'll add some routes with mileages and driving time estimates, a bit later.  🙂 

[Brian Kirby]

5 hours ago, Derek Uzzell said:

If I remember correctly, the reason for the difference in the Millau Viaduct toll-charge was not due to the price having been radically increased during your trip, but because you were (wrongly) charged the Category 2 rate going south and charged the correct rate for your motorhome (Category 4?) going back northwards.

The autoroute vehicle categories are shown here

and a similar scenario was mentioned by 'whisturx' on September 26 2010 in this forum thread

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/topic/18985-millau-bridge-tolls/

I don't know off-hand what the Millau Viaduct tolls (same price travelling south or north) are for Categories 3 and 4, but apparently the 2023 Category 2 toll is €8.60 (16 September to 14 June) or €10.80 (15 June to 15 September).

Just on the Millau viaduct prices, the following is from the Millau viaduct website, updated in Feb 2023.  

Class 3 seems, from their charges schedule, to be where teccer's van fits, i.e. two axles and weight over 3.5 tonnes: €33.80.

Classe 3

Poids lourds et autocars à 2 essieux

Hors été (du 16/09 au 14/06) 
33,80 €

Été (Du 15/06 au 15/09)
33,80 €

Informations

Véhicule à 2 essieux ayant : soit une hauteur totale supérieure ou égale à 3 mètres, soit un PTAC supérieur à 3,5 tonnes.

[laimeduck]

1 hour ago, Brian Kirby said:

I think this may be incorrect.  🙂  I've been exploring Millau routes, and so far as I can see there are (confusingly) twp levels of weight exclusion at Millau.  First, there as an outright prohibition of all vehicles over 3.5 tonnes entering the town - except for deliveries.  Second, there is a prohibition on commercial vehicles on certain routes that traverse the town (the sign carries a symbol of a box van) with the added word "EN TRANSIT" beneath it.  This prohibition, therefore, does not apply to vehicles other than commercial vehicles, and does not apply to vehicles that are not transiting.  So your motorhome would be legal on these routes on the ground that it is not a commercial vehicle.  To this could be added that were you to overnight on one of the several campsites in Millau, you would not be transiting, so would also be legal on that ground. 

Finally, there is a designated route for Commercial HGVs that allows leaving the A75 at exit 45 for Millau, and then following the D911 down to the "Hauts de Cres roundabout" where be careful to take the third exit signed D911 - Millau Centre, Montpellier and "Campings", and continue to what is locally called the "Geant" (though now branded Casino, which has good parking and is huge) roundabout, where take the second exit (the first is for the supermarket) signed as above, and continue on down the D911 to a further roundabout at the D911/D809 junction, where right (first exit) onto D809, also signed for Millau Centre and Montpellier and follow D809, straight on at next roundabout to further roundabout signed "left" for A75 Montpellier, Albi, St Affrique, where turn left D809 which swings right onto the Tarn embankment and through a further three roundabouts, and over the Pont du Larzac to a further roundabout where second exit (left) to continue on D809 up to re-join the A75 at Junction 47, and you're done!

So, transiting Millau in a "heavy" motorhome is apparently, from Google Earth and local reports, legally possible - on which assumption I'll add some routes with mileages and driving time estimates, a bit later.  🙂 

I would agree with this Brian. I checked earlier this year when we did exactly that route through Millau in January. I think the Millau campsites would go out of business if over 3500Kg were excluded! 

Jeremy

PS I had a quick look on "Street view" at the entry points to Millau and can't see any obvious signs.

[Brian Kirby]

The three routes I suggested above, including that via Yvetot, were:

1, East of Paris, via Dunkirk, Lille, Maubeuge, Reims, Troyes, Nevers, Clermont-Ferrand, Millau, Beziers, Perpignan and Le Perthus (Spanish border).  791 miles / 16 hrs 20 mins driving.

 2, 2 West of Rouen, via Abbeville, Yvetot, Incarville, Evreux, Dreux, Chartres, Orleans, Nevers, Clermont-Ferrand, and then as route 1 above.  789 miles / 16 hrs 10 mins driving.

3, Between Rouen and Paris, via Abbeville, then down the A28 to exit 10, then via Mantes-la-Jolie, Dreux, Chartres, Orleans, Vierzon, Bourges, Clermont-Ferrand, and then as route 1 above.  743 miles / 16 hours 30 mins driving.

So, recasting these routes to pass through Millau avoiding the expensive viaduct, gives:

Route 1, 795 miles / 16 hours 35 mins driving.

Route 2, 811 miles / 16 hours 45 minutes driving.

Route 3, 753 miles / 16 hours 45 minutes driving.

OTOH, avoiding Millau and the Auvergne by going via Yvetot and then Evreux, Dreux, Chartres, Orleans, Vierzon, Chateauroux, Limoges, and Toulouse, we get: 799 miles / 17 hours 15 minutes driving.

So, only an extra 12 miles and 30 extra minutes driving time in 800 miles.  I agree with you, insignificant in that distance, and if travelling in winter, you get the relative peace of mind of avoiding the possibly harsher Auvergne weather.

Mind, I well remember being surprised the first time I saw road signs warning of ice risks as far south of Bordeaux!  There are no guarantees in winter, weather is weather!  Happy travels!  🙂 

[Derek Uzzell]

Regarding the Millau Viaduct, this French-language link covers the current toll rates.

https://www.leviaducdemillau.com/home/tarifs-du-peage.html

The webpage includes links to two .pdf files

https://www.leviaducdemillau.com/files/live/sites/viaducdemillau/files/tarifs_de_peage_2023.pdf

https://www.leviaducdemillau.com/files/live/sites/viaducdemillau/files/asfa_classes_vehicules_01-01-19.pdf

The latter file should make it clear that Classes 3 and 4 apply to ALL 'poids lourds' (GVW exceeding 3500kg) vehicles.

The tarifs for Classes 3, 4 and 5 are not 'seasonal' - Class 3 is €33.80, Class 4 is €42.90 and Class 5 is €6.00