EU and Shengen food regulation conundrum?

[laimeduck]

I seem to have come across yet another conundrum.

We have recently spent about a week in Bosnia. We entered Bosnia with food bought in Luxembourg, Germany Austria, Slovenia and Croatia. When we exited Bosnia into Croatia near Mostar, there were big signs saying you could not bring in Dairy, Meat Veg etc.

How does this work then?

Do the EU expect me to throw away all stuff bought in EU simply because it has transited Bosnia in my fridge?

As it happens border control only asked if we had cigarettes or alcohol then waved us through. 

NB the Croatia Police at the border did not automatically stamp our passports ....we had to ask them to stamp them?

Jeremy

[mtravel]

Complaints, always complaints.

Once the milk without which you can't have breakfast once you land in France.

Another is dog vaccinations.

A third is the Crit'Air or the over 35 stickers.

Now food bought in Luxembourg. But how large is your refrigerator? Please...

Nobody forces you to have your passport stamped. Just like no one forces a Croatian policeman to do it.

You know the rules, we are preparing temporary places to lock up illegal immigrants. Only for eighteen months... Smile.

Have you ever wondered why no european complains about your ridicolous 60Mph highway speed limit ?

Or your "variable speed limits" which were never indicated ?

But they are rules we follow. Full stop.

You have an alternative. Stay on your rainy island.

It will certainly not be your absence (just four, I repeat four, English motorhomes seen in 4,500km traveled in Greece) that will cause the Greek economy or any other European country to collapse.

Max

p.s. At the Slovenia-Crozia customs in Bregana we were weighed. Fixed and non-temporary weighing system.

If they had caught you overweight, what would did you have complained about ?

That in the UK it is not normal practice to weigh RV's ?

[Brian Kirby]

Short answer to your first question, Jeremy, is that they expect you to so organise your affairs that you don't need to take dairy or animal products sourced outside the Schengen area into Schengen.  😄  Same applies to entering Schengen from UK.

However, it seems that enforcement of the regulation is delegated to the actual Schengen state whose border is relevant.  This, it seems, is in lieu of having (part foreign) Frontex officers responsible for manning all exterior Schengen frontier posts.  National pride?

The result is that the policing of the regulation varies from border crossing to border crossing, and from time to time, depending on local risk factors.  So, if the UK were to suffer an outbreak of "foot and mouth" disease, "swine fever", or "fowl pest" etc. the border controls facing UK travellers entering Schengen could be expected to be significantly more rigorous than at present, and so on.  Ditto in reverse on the UK side.

From what you say Bosnia had no known problems of that type, so the risk of transferred infection was low, so the controls minimal.  The official position is no meat or dairy, hence the signs, so you've been "told" but the actual level of surveillance varies according to perceived risk.

I guess one might call it official pragmatism.  Had Bosnia been harbouring something nasty when you returned, you would probably have had the lot confiscated!

It's one of the joys of travel - that little frisson of uncertainty as you approach the border, and the relief as you exit on the other side.

In 2008 we decided to go to Dubrovnik.  That meant driving right down through Croatia, which in turn meant traversing 5 miles of Bosnia-Herzegovina around Neum (the so-called Neum Corridor) which bordered the Adriatic.  I couldn't get insurance for that bit of the trip, so the alterative was to by-pass it by taking a ferry from Ploce across 9 miles of Adriatic to Trpanj, on the Pelješac Peninsula, so also in Croatia, and then drive down the Pelješac to Dubrovnik.  Great, no entering Bosnia!  🙂 

However, when we got to Ploce we were unable to board the ferry, because the Bora was blowing full tilt (which we'd already discovered!), and had piled up the water between the peninsula and the mainland (which we hadn't discovered!) to the extent that the transitions onto and off the ferry loading ramp were so abrupt we would ground on one end or other.  So no ferry, and no forecast for duration of Bora!

So off to the Bosnian border to see if we could buy transit insurance.  Conventional international land border, immigration and customs for Croatia (then not a full EU member) one side, Bosnian ditto the other side, no-mans land between.  Very friendly, smiling, Croatian border guard says "you come, you come" gesturing to drive on.  I ask about insurance, he says "s'alright, you come".  So, thinking I'd find what I wanted at Bosnian customs/immigration, I drove on.  At Bosnian border controls no-one was in!  Got out, walked into offices, all silent, no-one visible.  Perhaps the actual offices were a bit further on?  I very carefully advanced down the road, and down the road, until we came to the Neum town signs - at which point it seemed too late to turn back, so we carried on until we got to the Croatian border, which was also pretty much deserted, and we were just waved through.  5 miles of Bosnia plus one Bosnian town traversed while uninsured!  No incidents, no problems.  Hmmmmmmm!  Did I feel lucky?  Not especially, but at the time, I'd no idea I'd need to be - until we were back in Croatia going "phew"!!

By the time we left Dubrovnik the Trpanj - Ploce ferry was back running normally, so we avoided having to repeat the earlier uninsured experience.

Travel, see.  Full of unexpected surprises.  😄 

Edited September 19, 2023 by Brian Kirby

[laimeduck]

5 hours ago, mtravel said:

Complaints, always complaints.

Once the milk without which you can't have breakfast once you land in France.

Another is dog vaccinations.

A third is the Crit'Air or the over 35 stickers.

Now food bought in Luxembourg. But how large is your refrigerator? Please...

Nobody forces you to have your passport stamped. Just like no one forces a Croatian policeman to do it.

You know the rules, we are preparing temporary places to lock up illegal immigrants. Only for eighteen months... Smile.

Have you ever wondered why no european complains about your ridicolous 60Mph highway speed limit ?

Or your "variable speed limits" which were never indicated ?

But they are rules we follow. Full stop.

You have an alternative. Stay on your rainy island.

It will certainly not be your absence (just four, I repeat four, English motorhomes seen in 4,500km traveled in Greece) that will cause the Greek economy or any other European country to collapse.

Max

p.s. At the Slovenia-Crozia customs in Bregana we were weighed. Fixed and non-temporary weighing system.

If they had caught you overweight, what would did you have complained about ?

That in the UK it is not normal practice to weigh RV's ?

Max .... it probably got lost in your translation to Italian ...(I hope it was just that?) but I did not complain at all ... or criticise! 

I simply identified a conundrum. 

And as for stamping passports ... we had left Schengen area on entry onto Bosnia, so needed proof that we had re entered Schengen. We saved about 5 days of the generous 90 day allocation given to us after Brexit. 

I've said before, I don't do rude!

Jeremy

[laimeduck]

5 hours ago, Brian Kirby said:

Short answer to your first question, Jeremy, is that they expect you to so organise your affairs that you don't need to take dairy or animal products sourced outside the Schengen area into Schengen.  😄  Same applies to entering Schengen from UK.

Travel, see.  Full of unexpected surprises.  😄 

Brian ... I'm not sure that's answering my query? We bought the produce in the EU after leaving the UK, then transported it into Bosnia (non EU) for a few days. Are the EU honestly expecting me to ditch produce bought in the EU and moved for a few days into a non EU country? 

I think I know the answer is "yes" but what a nonsense!

In an extreme  .... as in your example.... drive down through Croatia and buy a load of stuff just before the Neum corridor .... Drive into Bosnia, 10 mins later you have to ditch it all when you re- enter Croatia? Really? Bonkers!

Jeremy 

[spirou]

The only "danger" of crossing Bosnia through Neum are the roaming charges. I got a 5€ extra on my work phone as I forgot to turn it off and received a photo on viber or something during those 10min...had to pay it back as it wasn't a work trip 😉

Absolutely nobody cares about your insurance or food. But they do somewhat care about alcohol, tobacco etc. brought into EU from Bosnia, Albania or Montenegro. Enough to ask at least.

[laimeduck]

3 minutes ago, spirou said:

The only "danger" of crossing Bosnia through Neum are the roaming charges. I got a 5€ extra on my work phone as I forgot to turn it off and received a photo on viber or something during those 10min...had to pay it back as it wasn't a work trip 😉

Absolutely nobody cares about your insurance or food. But they do somewhat care about alcohol, tobacco etc. brought into EU from Bosnia, Albania or Montenegro. Enough to ask at least.

Yes we twigged that ..turned off mobile data and only used campsite WiFi. Same in Switzerland for us.

Jeremy 

[Brian Kirby]

15 hours ago, laimeduck said:

Brian ... I'm not sure that's answering my query? We bought the produce in the EU after leaving the UK, then transported it into Bosnia (non EU) for a few days. Are the EU honestly expecting me to ditch produce bought in the EU and moved for a few days into a non EU country? 

I think I know the answer is "yes" but what a nonsense!

In an extreme  .... as in your example.... drive down through Croatia and buy a load of stuff just before the Neum corridor .... Drive into Bosnia, 10 mins later you have to ditch it all when you re- enter Croatia? Really? Bonkers!

Jeremy 

I don't think is is "yes", Jeremy, but what do I know?  🙂 

I think the answer is, and is intended to be, "maybe". 

The regulation was intended to prevent importation to the EU of animal and plant diseases.  Its enforcement is delegated to the individual states to apply, apparently, on a risk-determined basis. 

The regulation gives a legal framework within which the states, using their delegated enforcement powers, can then vary the rigour with which those powers are enforced.

So, if there are outbreaks of such diseases in a neighbouring, non EU, state, the border controls can be rigorously applied to prevent inward transmissions from that state.  OTOH, if the neighbouring state follows good agricultural practices, and is free of such diseases, the application of the regulations can be relaxed as deemed wise.

Hence you get the notice at the EU border that reflects the legal position, but a reception at the border that reflects the perceived current contamination risk applicable to the state you are exiting.

For unopened contraband items previously bought within the EU, or possibly even those already opened, which are merely being re-imported (with a possible proviso that you could prove where, and maybe when, the items were bought), I would anticipate them normally being passed through, even if your van were inspected.  Ditto even opened items - if you were lucky!  But, if there was an outbreak of whatever in the state you were leaving, I would anticipate inspection and, probably, the destruction of all the banned items except, possibly, those in unopened, provably EU sourced, packaging.

I don't think it can be "black" or "white", but has to be "grey".

That's my reasoning, but, as above, what do I know?  😄 

[david lloyd]

21 hours ago, mtravel said:

Complaints, always complaints.

Once the milk without which you can't have breakfast once you land in France.

Another is dog vaccinations.

A third is the Crit'Air or the over 35 stickers.

Now food bought in Luxembourg. But how large is your refrigerator? Please...

Nobody forces you to have your passport stamped. Just like no one forces a Croatian policeman to do it.

You know the rules, we are preparing temporary places to lock up illegal immigrants. Only for eighteen months... Smile.

Have you ever wondered why no european complains about your ridicolous 60Mph highway speed limit ?

Or your "variable speed limits" which were never indicated ?

But they are rules we follow. Full stop.

You have an alternative. Stay on your rainy island.

It will certainly not be your absence (just four, I repeat four, English motorhomes seen in 4,500km traveled in Greece) that will cause the Greek economy or any other European country to collapse.

Max

p.s. At the Slovenia-Crozia customs in Bregana we were weighed. Fixed and non-temporary weighing system.

If they had caught you overweight, what would did you have complained about ?

That in the UK it is not normal practice to weigh RV's ?

Bit harsh Max.

David

[mtravel]

3 hours ago, david lloyd said:

Bit harsh Max.

David

David, neither harsh nor rude.

I don't just frequent this forum and I continue to read requests for suggestions on how to break this or that rule. You will admit that this can be a little annoying.

You were never in Schengen, then you wanted to leave the Union.

No problem, just don't argue about the rules all the time.

You have some ridiculous ones that no continental disputes.

Max

p.s. Food. Once (by car) we entered California from Arizona. Surprise, there was a real border complete with gates (very similar to those on the highways). The cop asked: do you have fruit or vegetables?

Yes, a couple of apples that we bought in a service on the highway.

Well, either you eat them before you enter California or I have to confiscate them. Of course we ate them.

So ?

Edited September 20, 2023 by mtravel

[Adiebt]

“You were never in Schengen, then you wanted to leave the Union.”

We never voted to join a Union we voted to join a European Economic Community hence when the “continental” Union morphed we indeed decided to leave.

Greetings from this beautiful ( albeit rainy ) sceptered Isle.

[david lloyd]

54 minutes ago, Adiebt said:

“You were never in Schengen, then you wanted to leave the Union.”

We never voted to join a Union we voted to join a European Economic Community hence when the “continental” Union morphed we indeed decided to leave.

Greetings from this beautiful ( albeit rainy ) sceptered Isle.

Well said - I think many people forget the history of our ‘membership’

David

[Brian Kirby]

On 19/09/2023 at 09:27, laimeduck said:

...................................NB the Croatia Police at the border did not automatically stamp our passports ....we had to ask them to stamp them?

Jeremy

I gather this is not uncommon, and not limited to Croatia.  But, I do just wonder how many UK registered vans cross from Bosnia to Croatia in any given year, so possibly you caught them on the hop?

Clearly they should have done so, and you might have had serious problems had you been asked for your identity documents once into the EU, especially if you had reached the Channel before the omission was spotted.  All you'd have had would have been your (I assume Croatian) exit stamp, so presumably the whole period from then would have counted against your 90 days.  A generous frontier guard at Coquelles might have accepted receipts from Bosnian sources in lieu of a stamp, but I have no idea what jurisdiction they might have in that respect.  If you'd (apparently) been in the EU for more than 90 days you'd probably have been "verbalised", possibly sanctioned.

However, without in any way wishing to sound critical, it is your passport, and your responsibility to make sure the stamps are all in order.  It seems you got the stamps OK, so nothing lost.   Croatia only finalised its integration into the EU in January this year, so given that, and your unusual UK registered arrival, possibly just a bit of local unfamiliarity?

Given you'd been to Mostar, where did you cross back?  Metkovic, on the Neretva?  Are you taking the A1 motorway, or the Magistrala? 

Whichever, if the Bora blows be prepared to hunker down rather than simply press on.  It affects the lion's share of the Croatian Adriatic coast, and is a proper hoolie!  Forget the Mistral! 

It hit us almost as we left Krk for Dubrovnik, and buffeted us all the way to Dubrovnik, plus the first part of our return.

It is often described as blowing down the Adriatic, which it does, but it originates behind the coastal mountain range and funnels down the many lateral valleys, smacking passing traffic side on as it goes, before it hooks south down the Adriatic.  Between the valleys it can be comparatively calm, though still windy, but when you come to cross the valleys it's a bit like being downstream of a "Jumbo" jet on full thrust!  Even the A1 and its bridges get closed, and high sided vehicles really suffer. 

Our van at the time was a 2007 6M Transit based Hobby Van, and when crossing these lateral valleys I needed both sides of the Magistrala because of its strength!

That was at this time of year - 20 September to 6 October.  Your van is both longer and taller than the Hobby, so would be a real handful, assuming driving were possible/permitted.  So, if it blows, treat with respect.

The clue that it's brewing is a continuous cloud cap to the coastal range, but the locals will be able to warn you if it is forecast.  Quite a ride, that!  😐 

Oh, and don't forget Split if you haven't yet been.  Fabulous!

And no, Massimo, I'm not complaining about European winds - just advising!  🙂 

Edited September 20, 2023 by Brian Kirby

[spirou]

As Brian says, bora/bura/burja is no joke, especially around Senj. Here's a video of a friend (in red/black jacket) and some other storm chasers at Nehaj fortress in Senj recording a max gust of 205km/h.

Max I've experienced is just above 100km/h in winter and that was interesting. Since it blows towards open sea it's especially problematic for tourists on paddleboards, floating unicorns etc. I'm going to add nothing remotely similar is in the forecast next 2 weeks.

[mtravel]

I had customers and teams of engineers in Trieste (Trst in slovenian, they speak sort of Saxon/Hun dialect).

Many times I found "bora" blowing more than 140km/h.

Happy journeys "east there"...

[laimeduck]

On 20/09/2023 at 19:09, Brian Kirby said:

Given you'd been to Mostar, where did you cross back?  Metkovic, on the Neretva?  Are you taking the A1 motorway, or the Magistrala? 

Whichever, if the Bora blows be prepared to hunker down rather than simply press on.  It affects the lion's share of the Croatian Adriatic coast, and is a proper hoolie!  Forget the Mistral! 

It hit us almost as we left Krk for Dubrovnik, and buffeted us all the way to Dubrovnik, plus the first part of our return.

It is often described as blowing down the Adriatic, which it does, but it originates behind the coastal mountain range and funnels down the many lateral valleys, smacking passing traffic side on as it goes, before it hooks south down the Adriatic.  Between the valleys it can be comparatively calm, though still windy, but when you come to cross the valleys it's a bit like being downstream of a "Jumbo" jet on full thrust!  Even the A1 and its bridges get closed, and high sided vehicles really suffer. 

Our van at the time was a 2007 6M Transit based Hobby Van, and when crossing these lateral valleys I needed both sides of the Magistrala because of its strength!

That was at this time of year - 20 September to 6 October.  Your van is both longer and taller than the Hobby, so would be a real handful, assuming driving were possible/permitted.  So, if it blows, treat with respect.

The clue that it's brewing is a continuous cloud cap to the coastal range, but the locals will be able to warn you if it is forecast.  Quite a ride, that!  😐 

Oh, and don't forget Split if you haven't yet  

Brian - we crossed at Metković and use the Jadranska Magistrala  ... we are in no rush and try to avoid toll roads wherever possible. My Benimar is low profile just 2.8M tall and 7.3 M long and actually handles really very well in crosswinds. We cruise only at 55 ...60 mph which again helps stability.

We had intended to stay on the Peljesac peninsula near Orebic, but all of our preferred sites were full! So we had to backtrack down the peninsular past Ston to a lovely little site in Orasac where we spent a week or so in 2015. 

I rather think that the new bridge across to Peljesac has made it too easy for tourists to visit the area hence it is so busy. Not only did they build a bridge but a brand new fast road which by- passes Ston to reconnect to the mainland. This in turn has increased the tourist traffic to Dubrovnik and along with the cruise liner menace has swamped the place. I understand that the Bridge was partly funded by the EU in order to solve the problem that the Neum corridor posed ref Schengen. This was a prerequisite to Croatia joining the EU? 

I have no doubt that someone will prove me wrong on this, but that is what I have gleaned.

A great shame as this is a lovely part of the world and it will now probably be spoiled by excessive tourism.

Jeremy 

[Brian Kirby]

On 21/09/2023 at 13:53, laimeduck said:

.........................................I rather think that the new bridge across to Peljesac has made it too easy for tourists to visit the area hence it is so busy. Not only did they build a bridge but a brand bew fast road which by- passes Ston to reconnect to the mainland. This in turn has increased the tourist traffic to Dubrovnik and along with the cruise liner menace has swamped the place. I understand that the Bridge was partly funded by the EU in order to solve the problem that the Neum corridor posed ref Schengen. .....................................................

A great shame as this is a lovely part of the world and it will now probably be spoiled by excessive tourism.

Jeremy 

Had a Google Earth squint at the bridge - apparently toll free?  Very nice!

Well yes, more tourists, but Dubrovnik was by no means tourism free in 2008, mostly thanks to the cruise liners.  I'm sure the local economy will benefit, which will presumably be the part justification for building the bridge so, from what you've said, successful on that score.

It's a perennial trade-off, restricted access restricts excessive tourism, and preserves the "feel" of a place, but the local population is also affected by restricted living standards.

Be interesting to see what you think of Split, if you go.  We thought it wonderfully crackers!  🙂 

[laimeduck]

Yes the bridge is free. The locals here do not like Dubrovnik. Too many tourists! They say it is going the same way as Venice ..  locals can no longer afford to live there..  too many AirBNBs and rental properties force them out. So they become tourist traps and really quite sterile in a cultural sense. 

I think we will give Split a miss .... colleague campers here on site who have been in the last few days say it is rammed with tourists. I think we will escape up towards Sibenik and migrate further up the Adriatic coast ...if we can get into any sites? Mid September and everywhere is full? My theory.... Lots of motorhomes in Europe bought because of Covid ... thus lots of Germans and Dutch and French flooding the sites down here in their new holiday wheels? Not many Brits in evidence though?

Jeremy

[spirou]

Dubrovnik hasn't been worth a visit since late 90s. Covid was a brief window into old times. Kotor was a nice(r) alternative for a while but that's also ruined by cruisers. Split...was always just a ferry transit point for me and walking around old town during the wait is something I've been skipping for at least 20 years now.

Anyway, my parents just came back from Hvar, Makarska, Split etc. a few days ago and didn't mention any unusual crowds. September and October are mostly nautical high season though.

If you're looking for Brits in Croatia you just need to go to Zadar airport and up to Zrće on Pag. Just doubt you'll enjoy the company of drunk party goers.

Edited September 21, 2023 by spirou

[laimeduck]

47 minutes ago, spirou said:

Dubrovnik hasn't been worth a visit since late 90s. Covid was a brief window into old times. Kotor was a nice(r) alternative for a while but that's also ruined by cruisers. Split...was always just a ferry transit point for me and walking around old town during the wait is something I've been skipping for at least 20 years now.

Anyway, my parents just came back from Hvar, Makarska, Split etc. a few days ago and didn't mention any unusual crowds. September and October are mostly nautical high season though.

If you're looking for Brits in Croatia you just need to go to Zadar airport and up to Zrće on Pag. Just doubt you'll enjoy the company of drunk party goers.

Spirou thanks for the info .....we were debating whether to fork out on a ferry to Pag ... but if it is full of Brits we'll give it a miss! 

Jeremy

[spirou]

Don't need a ferry to Pag, there's a bridge. Also, not all of it is a club. Mostly limited near Zrće beach.

That said, Pag is just easy to get to, plenty of other more interesting islands around.

[laimeduck]

10 hours ago, spirou said:

Don't need a ferry to Pag, there's a bridge. Also, not all of it is a club. Mostly limited near Zrće beach.

That said, Pag is just easy to get to, plenty of other more interesting islands around.

Oops my mistake Spirou ...sorry... I meant Rab!

[Brian Kirby]

On 21/09/2023 at 18:33, laimeduck said:

................................................I think we will give Split a miss .... colleague campers here on site who have been in the last few days say it is rammed with tourists. .............................

Jeremy

 

Shame!  🙂  Here's a picture of the interior of Split Cathedral. 

It is actually the repurposed mausoleum of the Roman Emperor Diocletian (yes he who threw the Christians to the lions!), as Split was originally his "retirement" palace.

So as you can see, natural justice does exist.  😄  

This is what endeared Split to me.  It's full of similar.

Edited September 24, 2023 by Brian Kirby

[laimeduck]

48 minutes ago, Brian Kirby said:

Shame!  🙂  Here's a picture of the interior of Split Cathedral. 

It is actually the repurposed mausoleum of the Roman Emperor Diocletian (yes he who threw the Christians to the lions!), as Split was originally his "retirement" palace.

So as you can see, natural justice does exist.  😄  

This is what endeared Split to me.  It's full of similar.

Brian I did relent ... we tried to get into ACSI site camping Split 300 + pitches... they had one pitch left .  Small and next to rubbish bins! We left! Huge thunder storms going on which continued all afternoon and night. Awnings blown away etc? (not ours!)

Now in Trogir just up the coast enjoying a  Sunday beer in the Square. 

The whole of the Croatian coast is overrun with motorhomes ... mostly German. I would think this is an effect of Covid. Never seen a country as busy in mid late September!

If we come back this way it will be May time not September?

Jeremy

[Brian Kirby]

Camping Roznac?  For Split we stopped at Stobreč (Camping Stobreč, about 5 miles down the coast) and caught the bus in. 

But, everywhere was busy, with a high proportion of "D" registered vans - so not that much has changed! 

What we noted was a very high proportion of part completed buildings everywhere, many part occupied.  It gave an unfortunate impression of what is, in reality, a starkly beautiful coast.  Have they finished them yet?  😄

Hope the beer was good!  🙂