40 mph changed to 30mph. No warning !

[BrianR]

Yes, in France the limit (unless otherwise stated) is 50kph between the town/village boundary signs. It is not usual for there to be a speed limit before this, though it does happen occasionally.

 

Brian

[spartan3956]

Have you seen the two black cables sited on roads to a box usually padlocked to a lampost or sign.

These are Data checkers the print outs give time of day, what type of vehicles and there speeds.

Not confusing the single cable which checks vehicle numbers using the road.

BEWARE usually a week to two weeks later if its found that its feasible to site a mobile speed camera van IT WILL BE THERE!.

They are also sited before speed camera`s to see if the camera needs to be live.

 

pete

[BrianR]

Why not always beware and travel below the legal speed limit! It's far safer for eveybody.

 

Brian

[Guest caraprof]

BrianR - 2007-08-27 10:13 PM Why not always beware and travel below the legal speed limit! It's far safer for eveybody. Brian

Here we go again. It doesn't take long for some holier than thou person to come up with a statement of the bleeding obvious!

Good driving consists of driving up to the legal limit if it is safe to do so. What this thread is about is the confusion that can be caused by various external factors.

Good driving also means monitoring all visible threats and conditions and not necessarily losing real concentration by constantly having to glance down at your speedo to make sure that you're not doing a couple of miles an hour over the limit.

Have you any idea how frustrating it is for a business driver stuck behind someone who thinks that they're being clever by driving at 38mph in a forty area, in a car where, like most average vehicles, the speedo reads at least 10% over, which means that they're actually doing less than 35 mph?

Who do you think is the safer driver, some idiot on auto-pilot at 28 mph or a really good driver whose speed may vary from 25mph to 35mph because his attention is on what really matters, the road conditions, pedestrians, possible hazards and being on the lookout for the unexpected?

Finally, before anyone comes back with some unproven garbage about people surviving if you hit them at 25mph and dying if you hit them at 35 mph, consider some real facts. People are very rarely hit by a car at any of these speeds because there is usually a second or two warning, and awareness of what you're doing and reaction times and braking distance figure far more than actual speed. An alert driver will brake faster and be going far slower when he actually hits the subject than the average numpty in his Rover 216 who plods along at 28mph with his head in the clouds.

Oh, and by the way BrianR. How much below the speed limit do you advise that we should actually drive? 2 mph, 5 mph, or maybe even 10 mph. Or maybe we should have a man with a red flag walking in front of us?

[davenewellhome]

Frank get off your soapbox. A good friend of mine's daughter was knocked down and killed by a driver doing 35MPH in a 30MPH area. My sister and her then boyfriend were on a motorbike and were hit by a car going in the opposite direction. The car was travelling at nearly twice the limit for the road and on the wrong side. My sister was in hospital for 6 months with a shattered right leg (four breaks below the knee and two above) and multiple fractures to her pelvis. Her boyfriend, who was hospitalized for 18 months, lost a four inch piece of bone from his right thigh and to this day is paralysed in his right arm from the shoulder. Obviously drivers who exceed the limit are NOT safer drivers.

 

Your argument is typical of those people who regularly drive at above the speed limit and try to justify their behaviour to them selves and others. REAL good driving includes taking account of the speed limit for the road you are on and driving WITHIN that limit, not exceeding it because you feel you are such a good driver that you can safely do so. The speed limit is just that, a MAXIMUM limit and not a target speed.

 

The thread started off by saying in North Wales speed limit signs were being replaced to show a lower limit and this was catching out locals. I say that just demonstrates that they are not very good or aware drivers.

 

D.

[W3526602]

Hi,

 

At end of April, we had to go to Mold in North Wales, the manor of the Chief Constable who hates speeding motorists, but has a questionable success rate with other crimes. It was horrible....everybody creeping round at 25mph, even when the limit was 40. A population living in fear.

 

Have you ever wondered how long it takes to look at your speedo? Switch from long to short focus, concentrate on what the needle says, switch back to long focus. I would guess well over a second that you are not concentrating on the road ahead. Mirrors are slightly different, you glance without changing focus...unless there is something interesting that needs attention.

 

Did anybody read about the farmer who made a new scarecrow? He dressed it as a policeman holding a camera. The council made him remove it because it was a traffic hazaard. That raises some interesting questions.

 

602

[Guest caraprof]

davenewell@home - 2007-08-28 6:55 AM Frank get off your soapbox. A good friend of mine's daughter was knocked down and killed by a driver doing 35MPH in a 30MPH area. My sister and her then boyfriend were on a motorbike and were hit by a car going in the opposite direction. The car was travelling at nearly twice the limit for the road and on the wrong side. My sister was in hospital for 6 months with a shattered right leg (four breaks below the knee and two above) and multiple fractures to her pelvis. Her boyfriend, who was hospitalized for 18 months, lost a four inch piece of bone from his right thigh and to this day is paralysed in his right arm from the shoulder. Obviously drivers who exceed the limit are NOT safer drivers. Your argument is typical of those people who regularly drive at above the speed limit and try to justify their behaviour to them selves and others. REAL good driving includes taking account of the speed limit for the road you are on and driving WITHIN that limit, not exceeding it because you feel you are such a good driver that you can safely do so. The speed limit is just that, a MAXIMUM limit and not a target speed. The thread started off by saying in North Wales speed limit signs were being replaced to show a lower limit and this was catching out locals. I say that just demonstrates that they are not very good or aware drivers. D.

It would appear from the response above that the experiences that you quote above have made you even more of a zealot than I am!

First of all the idiot at twice the maximum speed who was on the wrong side of the road has nothing whatsoever to do with this debate. You may as well have quoted a driver who'd had twenty pints of beer or who was high on drugs.

The person killed by a driver doing 35mph is very sad, but I'm curious, how was his speed assessed so accurately?

As for the speed limit not being a target the Institute of Advanced Motorists won't agree with you. As I said earlier good driving is driving up to the limit if it is safe to do you. That is why some old chap was prosecuted a couple of years ago for driving at 20 mph for several miles and allowing a huge queue of frustrated drivers to build up behind him.

I ask you the question that I asked the other bloke - how many miles below the limit should we drive? Is it 2, 5 or even 10? And why, if the limit is assessed as safe at 30 mph, should we have to drive at 25 mph, assuming of course if conditions allow?

I refer you you to the post above mine, which shows more common sense than any argument put up by the snail brigade. Constantly glancing at your speedo is far more dangerous than straying a couple of miles over the limit.

Most people are not good drivers. Answer these questions honestly. When you stop at traffic lights, do you sit with your foot on the brake? Nine out of 10 drivers do, blinding the person behind and, when it's dark reducing his night vision. There's a level crossing near my office and I've seen people sit with their foot on the footbrake for five to ten minutes. I can't believe just how stupid some drivers can be!

Do you signal automatically just before you turn left or do you signal a couple of hundred yards in advance to give people plenty of warning? Again, most drivers are like Pavlov's dogs, signalling is an automatic reaction and usually done too late to make any difference.

Do you drive in the left lane of a motorway when there is an empty stretch in it, or do you continue to plod on in the middle, ths reducing a three lane highway to an effective two lane?

Most people, if they are honest, will admit to all three of the above faults. It doesn't necessarily make them really bad drivers, but they're certainly not good ones!

Many people are killed because drivers are on auto-pilot and whether they're on auto-pilot at 28mph or at 35 mph will make little difference. Good drivers concentrate more on their driving and conditions and don't worry too much if they accidentally stray over the limit by a fraction. Bad drivers plod along at 25 mph in their own smug, self-satisfied little world, ignoring the frustration of the people behind them and usually failing to react when something really serious happens.

[Dave Newell]

"Most people are not good drivers. Answer these questions honestly. When you stop at traffic lights, do you sit with your foot on the brake? Nine out of 10 drivers do, blinding the person behind and, when it's dark reducing his night vision. There's a level crossing near my office and I've seen people sit with their foot on the footbrake for five to ten minutes. I can't believe just how stupid some drivers can be!

 

If I know the lights are likely to change within a few seconds then yes I'll use the footbrake, otherwise its neutral gear and handbrake.

 

Do you signal automatically just before you turn left or do you signal a couple of hundred yards in advance to give people plenty of warning? Again, most drivers are like Pavlov's dogs, signalling is an automatic reaction and usually done too late to make any difference.

 

The distance before a junction that I indicate is dependent on the speed I'm travelling at, on a motorway for example I start to indicate at the 300 metre marker board. On an A road at 40 MPH its more likely to be around 100 metres but I always try to give a reasonable prior indication of my intentions.

 

Do you drive in the left lane of a motorway when there is an empty stretch in it, or do you continue to plod on in the middle, ths reducing a three lane highway to an effective two lane?"

 

Yes I do move over to the left hand lane if its empty. Having just done a 1000 mile round trip to Dusseldorf this weekend I found it intriguing that on the continent lane discipline is much better. Conversely they are much happier to tailgate you at high speed if you are overtaking in front of them.

 

Speed limits are just that, limits. That is to say the maximum speed you are legally allowed to travel at, they are not a target at all and I don't believe the IOM say otherwise. They might well say that you should travel as close to the limit for any road as is possible and appropriate for the road conditions.

 

I totally agree that most drivers are not good drivers but aren't we getting away from the topic here?

 

It does not take anything like a second to check your instrument panel and anyway you should only be looking down to the panel when the road ahead is clear. Personally I can see my instrument panel in perriferral vision so don't need to be constantly taking my eyes off the road to check my speed. I also use cruise control to stay within the speed limit.

 

I've driven over 750,000 miles in my time behind the wheel and never had a speeding ticket, how many of you can say that honestly?

 

D.

[Guest caraprof]

I'm sure you realise Dave that in my comments about most drivers not actually being as good as they think they are I was not in any way directing them at you personally, only on those that I see every day.

Having said that I think that you are totally wrong about how easy it is to glance at your speedo. When you get older, your eyes take a lot longer to adjust from close to distant vision and constantly looking down, refocussing for a second or so and looking up again is I suspect, the cause of many I accidents caused by older people.

[W3526602]

Hi.

 

I was doing 30mph. I know I was because I was looking at my speedo when my wife screamed. My eyes went straight back to the road in front.

 

The car in front had just about stopped, no problem, I was a good way behind him. But what was that big brown tarpaulin thing floating in the air above him? It fell onto the road behind him...I'm still trying to get my mind round what I'm looking at....by this time my foot is hard on the brake pedal.

 

The "tarpaulin" gets to its feet, gives itself a shake, and trots off down a side lane. I jump out of my car and follow it. I reckon the pony was about 13hh, standing quite unconcerned beside a gate. I let him into the field and returned to the road.

 

Bloke in the car that hit the pony was staring at the front of his car, which was all stove in. No damage further back as the pony flew high above it. I left him to it.

 

But the point is that a hell of a lot can happen in the short time it takes to look at your speedo. It would be nice if the Road Research Laboratory could tell us how long a quick glance takes. Or maybe they don't dare.

 

602

[davenewellhome]

I reckon about half a second to look at the instrument panel and yes even at 30MPH you can cover a surprising distance in half a second which is why looking at your instruments is secondary to being aware of what is going on outside the vehicle. Having said that it is obvious that you will cover even more distance in that time if you're going faster. As I said before, I can see the panel in my perriferal vision and determine that I'm about the right speed, an occasional glance whne its safe to do so confirms this and using cruise control I can be pretty certain that I'm just below the speed limit.

 

D.

[colin]

When driving a unfamiliar vehicle I find myself often glancing ( not stareing ) at speedo, but for more familiar vehicles I hardly need to conciously look at speedo to know what speed I am driving.

GF had picked up a bad habit of driving at 40 in 30 limits, but a ticket made her slow down, for the first few journeis at 30 with her I kept looking across at speedo because she seemed to be driving so slowly, but when she is passenger she often says I drive too fast, when I say look at speedo it reads 30.

[W3526602]

Hi,

 

Way back in the 1950s, a famous jazz musician got booked for speeding. He defended himself in court by stating that his car gave off a musical note (not Middle-C, but something like that) at 30mph, and that was the note he was hearing when the police stopped him.

 

Guilty!

 

602

[BrianR]

"Oh, and by the way BrianR. How much below the speed limit do you advise that we should actually drive? 2 mph, 5 mph, or maybe even 10 mph. Or maybe we should have a man with a red flag walking in front of us?"

 

Oh dear, this obviously did touch a guilty nerve! The answer, of course, is whatever speed you need to travel at for you personally to be sure that you will not exceed the speed limit. For those people who are not used properly to observing speed limits, this would be lower, initially, than those of us who have years of experience in observing them. Incidentally, before retirement I had lots of experience as a business traveller, and it didn't annoy me to be behind someone who drove just below the speed limit. You have to drive an awful long way behind them for the few extra MPH to make any apprecaible difference to the journey time.

[Old Git]

BrianR - 2007-08-29 11:32 AM

 

You have to drive an awful long way behind them for the few extra MPH to make any apprecaible difference to the journey time.

 

Most sensible comment yet Brian.

 

People are in such a tearing hurry these days, and take risks by driving too fast, breaking speed limits, overtaking etc. It's quite illuminating to observe how many of the brain-dead idiots who have hurtled past you in the last few miles are just a few cars in front at the next traffic lights, junction or whatever.

 

All that extra stress and wasted fuel just to gain 10 or 15 seconds - and other people's lives put at risk in doing so!!

 

 

[Guest caraprof]

BrianR - 2007-08-29 11:32 AM "Oh, and by the way BrianR. How much below the speed limit do you advise that we should actually drive? 2 mph, 5 mph, or maybe even 10 mph. Or maybe we should have a man with a red flag walking in front of us?" Oh dear, this obviously did touch a guilty nerve! The answer, of course, is whatever speed you need to travel at for you personally to be sure that you will not exceed the speed limit. For those people who are not used properly to observing speed limits, this would be lower, initially, than those of us who have years of experience in observing them. Incidentally, before retirement I had lots of experience as a business traveller, and it didn't annoy me to be behind someone who drove just below the speed limit. You have to drive an awful long way behind them for the few extra MPH to make any apprecaible difference to the journey time.

Why should you assume that you touched a guilty nerve? That was a very cheap shot and I can assure you that I've no guilt about my driving whatsoever. I love driving and on every journey I'm constantly monitoring as much as possible, unlike some members of the old duffers' club who seem to be on permanent auto pilot!

But to get back to my question about how slow you should drive below the limit would you consider it reasonable for someone to drive at a constant 20mph along a road where it's safe to do 30 or even 40mph?

My opinion is that someone who isn't comfortable driving up to the speed limit when conditions safely allow it, shouldn't even be driving at all. If their skills are so poor, they will be the last person to react safely and quickly when there's an emergency.

I also find it very frustrating when some people complain that too many people are in too much of a hurry. It's very selfish of retired codgers to think that everyone is happy to toddle along a much lower speeds than the law or conditions allow. Businessmen, delivery drivers and the like don't have the luxury of your amount of time and they should be able, as much as possible, to drive as quickly as the law and safety allows.

[W3526602]

Hi,

 

We have all met the slow driver who you eventually obvertake, only for him to catch up with you at the next set of traffic lights. You can almost hear him muttering that despite your tremendous hurry, you are no further ahead. Ah, but if I'd reached the traffic light ten seconds earlier, I wouldn't have to wait two minutes for them to turn green again. >:-(

 

Can we take it as read that there no tear-a----s on this group, same as there are not any who don't occasionally step overr the mark? I try to keep within the law, I don't always succeed. Even that Chief Constable in North Wales admitted that he ONCE found himself creeping over the speed limit.

 

I just don't think the punishment fits the crime....well, not always.

 

602

 

 

[Guest caraprof]

W3526602 - 2007-08-29 5:39 PM Hi, We have all met the slow driver who you eventually obvertake, only for him to catch up with you at the next set of traffic lights. You can almost hear him muttering that despite your tremendous hurry, you are no further ahead. Ah, but if I'd reached the traffic light ten seconds earlier, I wouldn't have to wait two minutes for them to turn green again. >:-( Can we take it as read that there no tear-a----s on this group, same as there are not any who don't occasionally step overr the mark? I try to keep within the law, I don't always succeed. Even that Chief Constable in North Wales admitted that he ONCE found himself creeping over the speed limit. I just don't think the punishment fits the crime....well, not always. 602

But that's not even true! Yes, that does happen but what also happens an equal number of times is that overtaking the codger actually gets you through a long set of traffic lights that you would have been stuck at if you'd stayed behind him.

But it's irrelevant anyway. The point is that we have a legal right to drive up to the limit if conditions allow and anyone who doesn't is holding up drivers who may not want holding up. And have you ever noticed how the codgers never ever dream of pulling over to allow the queue that's built up behind them, to overtake? They sit there in their smug, self satisfied little world toddling along oblivious to the frustration that they're causing.

Consider this; If a businessman or delivery driver can do 70 mph and perhaps, with delays etc. average 60mph on his 200 mile mainly-motorway journey, it will take him 3 hours and 20 minutes. If he's forced to drive at 50 mph and so only average say 43mph (the same ratio) it will take him 4 hours and 40 minutes. That's an extra 1 hour and 20 minutes.

Before motorways and relatively speedy travel I used to go to the Potteries to do business. I had to stay in an hotel! One night away from home and huge expense. Then the M6 opened and I could do it in a day. No hotels, much less cost and time at home instead of being stuck in an hotel!

Britain needs more motorways and better roads. It needs a higher limit on motorways instead of one set when cars were primitive by today's standards. And it needs regular testing every ten years so that those drivers who have lost their skills and reactions are taken off the road.

Finally, I'd like to explain what I mean by the word 'codgers'. This is my pet name for a certain type of driver and has nothing to do with age. Some people are codgers at 40! They are the ones who plod along much more slowly than any sensible driver would. They are the ones oblivious to anyone behind them and above all they are the smug and selfish idiots who think that by driving at 25 mph when conditions safely allow 30 mph that they are being clever, when in fact all that they're proving is that they haven't got the necessary skills required to drive properly in today's conditions.

[W3526602]

Hi Caraprof,

 

My mate Bill drives the school bus. He told me that he trundles down the bypass towards J45 of the M4 at 30mph...which greatly upsets the drivers behind him...its a 60mph road. On the other hand, he reckons he is the ONLY vehicle to reach the J45 roundabout without a queue of cars blocking his way onto the roundabout.

 

Perhaps its all changed since they put traffic lights in to control the cat's cradle of slip roads.

 

602

[Old Git]

And have you ever noticed how the codgers never ever dream of pulling over to allow the queue that's built up behind them, to overtake? They sit there in their smug, self satisfied little world toddling along oblivious to the frustration that they're causing. . . . .

 

. . . . . They are the ones who plod along much more slowly than any sensible driver would. They are the ones oblivious to anyone behind them and above all they are the smug and selfish idiots who think that by driving at 25 mph when conditions safely allow 30 mph that they are being clever, when in fact all that they're proving is that they haven't got the necessary skills required to drive properly in today's conditions.

[/Quote]

 

Hi Caraprof

 

I presume I'm the retired codger you are having a go at this time, since it was me who remarked on people being in a tearing hurry.

 

Well, this particular codger is an ex rally driver, and a moderately successful one at that. I too drive up to, and I confess occasionally beyond the speed limit, and the brain-dead idiots I was referring to are those who overtake on fairly narrow country lanes at speeds of at least 80mph, or who just have to overtake in a heavily built-up area within the 30 limit just to get past an "Old Codger" doing a legal and sensible 30mph.

 

In anticipation of your next question, "How do I know they are doing 80mph?". Easy - because I'm doing 60 (or very near) and they come past me like faeces off a fork.

 

Not everyone is as daft as you seem to assume Frank, nor are they necessarily quite what they appear to be.

 

Am I upset by your comments? How could I be - you have to respect someone to be upset by their opinion of you.

 

I am a bit surprised though, since I came to your support not many minutes ago on another thread!!

 

One final thought Frank before I go and make the Horlicks.

 

You will be old one day!

 

 

[Guest caraprof]

Old Git - 2007-08-29 7:26 PM

And have you ever noticed how the codgers never ever dream of pulling over to allow the queue that's built up behind them, to overtake? They sit there in their smug, self satisfied little world toddling along oblivious to the frustration that they're causing. . . . . . . . . . They are the ones who plod along much more slowly than any sensible driver would. They are the ones oblivious to anyone behind them and above all they are the smug and selfish idiots who think that by driving at 25 mph when conditions safely allow 30 mph that they are being clever, when in fact all that they're proving is that they haven't got the necessary skills required to drive properly in today's conditions. [/Quote] Hi Caraprof I presume I'm the retired codger you are having a go at this time, since it was me who remarked on people being in a tearing hurry. Well, this particular codger is an ex rally driver, and a moderately successful one at that. I too drive up to, and I confess occasionally beyond the speed limit, and the brain-dead idiots I was referring to are those who overtake on fairly narrow country lanes at speeds of at least 80mph, or who just have to overtake in a heavily built-up area within the 30 limit just to get past an "Old Codger" doing a legal and sensible 30mph. In anticipation of your next question, "How do I know they are doing 80mph?". Easy - because I'm doing 60 (or very near) and they come past me like faeces off a fork. Not everyone is as daft as you seem to assume Frank, nor are they necessarily quite what they appear to be. Am I upset by your comments? How could I be - you have to respect someone to be upset by their opinion of you. I am a bit surprised though, since I came to your support not many minutes ago on another thread!! One final thought Frank before I go and make the Horlicks. You will be old one day!

Mmmm? Why would you assume that I was having a go at you? My comment was a general one about the mindset of people who drive at 25mph and think that this is fast enough for anyone because it's fast enough for them. I've just read the post that you obviously think that I was referring to and it's quite clear that you are talking about crazy speeding drivers and not one simply wishing to drive up to the limit.

Finally, I have to say that I find the comment below very offensive and unnecessary.

Am I upset by your comments? How could I be - you have to respect someone to be upset by their opinion of you.

[Old Git]

caraprof - 2007-08-29 10:40 PM

Finally, I have to say that I find the comment below very offensive and unnecessary.

 

Am I upset by your comments? How could I be - you have to respect someone to be upset by their opinion of you.

 

Why? I don't know you so how can I respect you. Nothing offensive in that surely.

 

Do you care what Wendy Fitzgerald thinks of you?

[Guest caraprof]

Old Git - 2007-08-29 10:42 PM

caraprof - 2007-08-29 10:40 PM Am I upset by your comments? How could I be - you have to respect someone to be upset by their opinion of you./>

Why? I don't know you so how can I respect you. Nothing offensive in that surely. Do you care what Wendy Fitzgerald thinks of you?

Then we'll agree to differ because I feel that everyone is due respect until they do something that is bad enough to make them lose that respect.

Your policy seems to be not to respect anyone until they have somehow proved themselves. I'm sorry to say that I do not find that a very nice attitude. Regrettably though it seems to be the way that certain sections of society are going.

[Old Git]

caraprof - 2007-08-29 10:48 PM

 

Then we'll agree to differ because I feel that everyone is due respect until they do something that is bad enough to make them lose that respect.

 

Your policy seems to be not to respect anyone until they have somehow proved themselves. I'm sorry to say that I do not find that a very nice attitude. Regrettably though it seems to be the way that certain sections of society are going.

 

 

No Caraprof - I do agree entirely with your first paragraph above.

 

But you repeatedly demean and ridicule other inoffensive members of the forum, apparently searching for every opportunity to do so. They may not all be as robust as you and I, and I'm sure some of them have felt quite hurt and affronted. I don't think that is a very nice attitude, and it is quite bad enough to lose my respect I'm afraid.

 

There you are. You stated your opinion of me. I've just returned the compliment. And what has it proved?

 

Neither of us has a clue whether we are correct or way off beam because we know nothing about each other apart from what appears in print on this forum. For all I know you could be a delightful, but desperately lonely and unhappy old granny who uses this strategy as a means of seeking the attention she so badly craves. And I could be the Pope - or his daughter!!

 

Far from impossible - ask "the tortoise". He is probably far better qualified than me, and certainly has more practical experience.

 

 

[Guest caraprof]

Now you're squirming! You said you said that you didn't respect me because you don't know me but now that I've pointed out what an unpleasant person such an attitude makes you, you've now changed tack and decided that my contributions are in fact offensive to you.

I notice that it's taken you since last night to work out a response as you were on this forum until some time after my reply and I have to say that it's a pretty feeble one!

As for demeaning anyone, since when does argument demean anyone? If you can't stand the heat I suggest that you consider leaving the kitchen. Apart from which it's your last posts which have been particularly insulting and I think that we've a clear case of the kettle calling the pot black here!

And as for Tortoises 'qualifications' I have my own views on that!