Guest Jen's Grumpy Git Posted September 16, 2007 Share Posted September 16, 2007 I am unreliably informed that it's ok to tow a smart car behind a motorhome on a standard "A" frame without brkes due to the cars kerbweight being less than 750 kgs.........is this correct or would it be better on a trailer as I can't be bothered with the hassle of the systems and devices that invole braking a "towed" car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin r c Posted September 16, 2007 Share Posted September 16, 2007 A trailer would be better in one respect as a smart car has different size wheels front and back.in the event of a flat,you could be in the poo as all you get is a can of sealer and no spare as standard. with a trailer you only need 1 spare. martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jen's Grumpy Git Posted September 16, 2007 Share Posted September 16, 2007 That was something I considered and an option would have to be a rear camera to keep an eye on things, but it would be easy to carry a spare onboard the motorhome so I would only need one spare as opposed to two, but my question is relating to the braked - unbraked aspect, any ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhc Posted September 16, 2007 Share Posted September 16, 2007 This is one of those topics which has no straight answer. If you want to be totally confident that you can take a car on the back of a motorhome anywhere in Europe, then putting the car on a trailer is the way to go. But, there are many advocates of the 'A' frame setup and I know of people who have travelled through several countries at a time without raised eyebrows from the local police. Assuming there are no technical difficulties (like available towing limit), bear in mind that the weight of any towbar and load upon it will reduce your payload accordingly - plus the downward load from a trailer will be much more than an 'A' frame. You are right that if the all-up weight of the car and 'A' frame is less than 750kg, no seperate braking system is required. If you are seriously interested in buying this kind of setup, I know of someone who has a Smart car rigged and ready for sale. No doubt there will be lots more posts on this shortly :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin r c Posted September 16, 2007 Share Posted September 16, 2007 Yes you can tow unbraked a car or trailer under 750kg MPTLM. There is however some debate on A Frames. Do a search on this site.it's quite good. martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jen's Grumpy Git Posted September 16, 2007 Share Posted September 16, 2007 Thanks for that MHC, we already have the smart car and might be interested in the "A" frame if available but we need to survey the options. Having owned a property in the South Loire for over two years now we are looking to 6 months France and 6 month UK, but whilst in France we would like to explore Italy,Greece, and posibly Spain using France as a base. Having just bouht the SmartCar we need to get it right. I do know that in France it is illegal to tow a vehicle and it needs to be on a trailer, but the "gendarmes" do turn a blind eye to this activity, however it can be a problem in the UK when for example being on a CC site merely having restricted space on the pitch ie, 7mtr MH, trailer, wind-out awning and Smartcar, so probably UK use an A frame and Europe a trailer perhaps because for two reasons, 1. The law dictates that the car should be on a trailer (when abroad) and.... 2. In the UK the pitch sizes are smaller so an "A" frame would be a better option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted September 16, 2007 Share Posted September 16, 2007 Although some people take a chance towing Smart cars with A frames its not recommended for other Engineering reasons. This is because when the Smart car is being driven an engine driven oil pump pumps oil around the transmission. This transmission is also in motion when the Smart car is towed with an A frame, but the oil pump is not running. Hence there is potential transmission damage due to inadequate lubrication. A trailer is the safest bet for both engineering and legal reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jen's Grumpy Git Posted September 16, 2007 Share Posted September 16, 2007 Thank you Clive, as always there are hidden aspects to all equations and without the knowledge of the few sought after by the many we would all be floundering. It would be my preferred option to tow a trailer, the biggest problem is that you have to site the trailer and as we know CC sites don't usually accomodate for all the furniture and baggage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takeaflight Posted September 16, 2007 Share Posted September 16, 2007 Hi I tow on a trailer and use CC sites never had a problem, pitches are of a size to take a caravan and a car, so M/H and trailer !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenewellhome Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 You can not legally tow a car on an A frame without brakes being operational. The car and A frame becomes a trailer and trailer law states that if brakes are fitted to the trailer then they must operate via an over-run coupling. As all cars have brakes then when used on an A frame as a trailer the brakes must be operated by said over-run coupling. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A W Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 Just to throw a spanner in the works!! If you are going to live in France for 6 months you have 3 months to register your campingcar as French which will then preclude the use of a frame anyway. Obviously this would be a mare of a problem if you are also living in the UK,and understandibly you wouldn't want to go through the registration process. BUT what it does mean is that if you tow on an A frame with British plates you will draw attention to yourself by the local Police/Customs as they will be familiar with your French home ownership. Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixters other half Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 Interesting point AW - As another resident in Brittany I have my smart car registered in France but not as yet the camping car. My understanding is you have a year to complete the registration process. But to revert to the original post- You are far safer towing a Smart on a trailer, there are no problems with CC sites in accomodating the trailer We've done it many times the only problem I have had is with low branches in some site entrances, Cirencester was the worst. It didnt affect the trailer just the M/H roof I would recommend Brian James Trailers as they make one specifically for the Smart and they can give you type approval if you want to register it abroad Rgds VoH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jen's Grumpy Git Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 Thanks for that VoH , after listening to the pro's and con's of both sides I think that it's the best option to tow on a trailer, this in turn will eliminate so many problems and most importantly peace of mind whilst towing. It has been suggested to me by Barlow's Trailers that the recommended size of trailer for a Smart Car is 11ft length, I this this is the one they stock (Ifor Williams) and will certainly look at other options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W3526602 Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 Hi, Depending one one's travel pattern, why not let one person drive the camper, and his/her spouse/partner drive the car? Obviously not ideal if you are doing a quick blast down to the Med for a week's holiday (might be cheaper to rent a car when you arrive), but if you are only driving a hundred miles or so, then staying put for a few days..... OK, I'll get my coat.... 602 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potjoe Posted September 18, 2007 Share Posted September 18, 2007 (?) (?) (?) I to are thinking do we go with "A" frame OR trailer?. as we are now going from car/caravan to motorhome.We have a Nissan Micra and do we go this way or that - and yes you do need to have the brakes working on your Smart car sorry to say,just one thing if you fit an "A" bar its hard to put on other car if you change it (car) plus cost but with trailer just one cost to fit lots of cars!and take alook at s/hand prices of trailers .Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixters other half Posted September 18, 2007 Share Posted September 18, 2007 The main point to bear in mind is that technically A frames are illegal. I know many people use them quite happily and have not been stopped by the police. But an accident that makes the headlines involving an A-frame is bound to cause a knee jerk reaction from the beaurocrats and then there will be a purge, believe me. The Brian James Trailer I have, has the wheels slightly off centre so that the weight of the car is evenly distributed over the axle. This makes for extremely stable towing even with cross winds. I have the reversing camera on when towing as the trailer does not show up in the wing mirrors when in a straight line. Hope this is reassuring to you Rgds VoH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miami Posted September 18, 2007 Share Posted September 18, 2007 Clive - 2007-09-16 10:28 PM Although some people take a chance towing Smart cars with A frames its not recommended for other Engineering reasons. This is because when the Smart car is being driven an engine driven oil pump pumps oil around the transmission. This transmission is also in motion when the Smart car is towed with an A frame, but the oil pump is not running. Hence there is potential transmission damage due to inadequate lubrication. A trailer is the safest bet for both engineering and legal reasons. Hi CliveOur Smart had been towed all over the place (Not all by us) and has now covered 54k. It goes like a rocket (for a jerky Smart car) and there have been no transmission problems.Not sure that Smart owners will agree with you. We are selling ours because a) it is LHD b) uncomfortable and c) can't get the grandchildren in. Going for a lightweight 4 door next week again on an 'A' frame with a Brakebuddy which we have found excellent.We don't take the car abroad as we like to tour and it is a nuisance. Only use it in the UK as you can't park anywhere with an MH here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted September 18, 2007 Share Posted September 18, 2007 John, You are one of many who do this and have no problems. My information came from an engineering source and it is a "recommendation" because of the method of gearbox lubrication. I would be wary with a new vehicle under warranty though. If it suffered a transmission fault and they knew it had been "A" frame towed it may well invalidate your warranty. But more importantly you have confirmed us that these little mobiles are jerky and uncomfortable so I guess that puts that one to bed. At one time I tried to convince my Mrs to have a Smart Car but she said she would not be seen dead in one. Do they have that effect on many people I wonder? She got a vauxgall Agila in stead. More space, more upright seating position, 5 doors chain cam and less cash. Nissan Micra perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixters other half Posted September 18, 2007 Share Posted September 18, 2007 Its interesting one mans dislikes are anothers likes. We bought our Smart because it was LHD , We wanted just a 2 seater that was compact for ease of parking in the tiny narrow streets of some of the places we like to visit. The tip tronic gear box takes abit of getting used to but get the revs right and you dont get any jerking when you change up. We found that having the clutch mechanism adjusted improved the gear changing even more. In auto you use more fuel but its still economical and above all fun to drive. My only gripe would be no power steering when parking but I suppose I need some excercise! VoH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jen's Grumpy Git Posted September 18, 2007 Share Posted September 18, 2007 There are a couple of specific Smart Car trailer manufacturers in the UK amd they seem to be around £1100. These are designed mainly for the smart car with the wheels positioned to accomodate for the SOG of the vehicle. As for not using when abroad it all depends on what floats your boat but I am now inclined to go the trailer route, after all it,s al part of the fun, isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjphillips Posted September 19, 2007 Share Posted September 19, 2007 I seem to remember I believe that its not the kerbside weight that has to be under 750 kg to not require brakes but the gross vehicle weight has to be under 750kg.I'm sure I read that when I was deciding on a trailer or an a-frame .I eventually bought a trailer & a Fiat Panda. (?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenewellhome Posted September 19, 2007 Share Posted September 19, 2007 bjphillips - 2007-09-19 9:37 PM I seem to remember I believe that its not the kerbside weight that has to be under 750 kg to not require brakes but the gross vehicle weight has to be under 750kg.I'm sure I read that when I was deciding on a trailer or an a-frame .I eventually bought a trailer & a Fiat Panda. (?) As I said earlier, when a car is on an A frame it becomes a trailer, trailer law clearly states that any trailer with brakes, regardless of weight, they must be operational via an over-run device (brake buddy is not an over-run device as its electrically operated and triggered from the brake light circuit). Forget the 750 KG rule, when applied to an A framed car it's totally irrelevant as all cars have brakes and therefore when towed on an A frame as a trailer they MUST operate via an over -run coupling! D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W3526602 Posted September 20, 2007 Share Posted September 20, 2007 Hi, When you tow ANYTHING on wheels, it becomes a trailer (lots of case law) and has to comply with trailer law. The problem is that it still remains a motor car, and has to comply with that law too. Its the double whammy that makes things difficult. Now, maybe if a car could have a chassis plate that indicates its MAM for both driving and being towed........ Would Type Approval regs allow the manufacturer to do that? OT, I've heard that the Citroen DS Pallas has Type Approval to be driven on only three wheels...which made a Welsh policeman very unhappy/angry. So maybe anything is possible? 602 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miami Posted September 20, 2007 Share Posted September 20, 2007 Hi DThe brake buddy we have does not operate on the brake lights it works on an inertia basis and is VERY effective. In fact it is far better than the overun devices we have had on our caravans in the past. If you set it up correctly then there is no problem. I feel a lot safer knowing ir is working and not banging the back of the motorhome each time I put the brakes on. http://www.brakebuddy.co.uk/brake_buddy.htmI work on the basis that as we copy everything the yanks do then we will probably adopt these over here!! If not I will just get a trailer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catinou Posted September 20, 2007 Share Posted September 20, 2007 We have just returned from 2 weeks travelling and towed our Smart car behind our new motorhome down to Lake Garda - on a Brian James trailer. We were wary at first but apart from a combined length of 37 feet + there were no problems on sites or towing. Fuel consumption was about 22 mpg - we don't know how this compares to not towing as the van is new but we were pleased we took it and used it extensively in Italy. The use of a trailer took away the "worry" of whether the police would be attracted to us more if we had an A frame, so was worth every penny. After all, you have enough to worry about - driving on the "wrong " side of the road and navigating with road signs in several different languages en route! I would definitely recommend the trailer route. Good luck which ever way you choose........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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