Guest Jen's Grumpy Git Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 Having now physically seen the "Tow-A-Frame" at the York Show and had the full discussion with the guys who know it seems that the A Frame is a better option than a trailer. 1. The "A" Frame is more convenient, less hassle and does incorporate the Smart Cars braking system. 2. trailers are large, heavy and cumbersome and are over 50% more expensive, plus they have to be store when not in use both on site and at home. Also an issue which was mentioned previously by Clive re; the lubrication to vital parts when towing a Smart Car isnot an issue. I spoke in depth to a Mercedes technician and was told that so long as the car is in the Neutral mode when towing there will not be any lubrication problems. Finally as for towing abroad, when the car is on an "A Frame" it effectively becomes a braked trailer and not a motor vehicle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenewellhome Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 "Finally as for towing abroad, when the car is on an "A Frame" it effectively becomes a braked trailer and not a motor vehicle." Yes, but sadly not a trailer that complies with current UK trailer law. Use the search option above to see all the correspondence on this thorny subject. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jen's Grumpy Git Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 Provided the weight does not exceed 750kg there is no obstruction to it effectively being a trailer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenewellhome Posted September 24, 2007 Share Posted September 24, 2007 What is the relevance of it being under 750KGs? Whatever you say a car on A frame does not comply with trailer law. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted September 24, 2007 Share Posted September 24, 2007 Jen's Grumpy Git - 2007-09-23 9:25 PM Provided the weight does not exceed 750kg there is no obstruction to it effectively being a trailer. Errr no...... not quite From memory, its not the kerb weight but mass in running order that determines the weight for towing The only cars under 750kg are the french micro cars, the axium & ligier?. and as trailer law states if brakes fitted they must be operational these are probably illegal on an A frame as well. this has been done to death previously, the search feature should recover a mass of material on subject Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jen's Grumpy Git Posted September 24, 2007 Share Posted September 24, 2007 The braking system as used by the "Tow A Car" system is identical to those used on a normal conventional trailer. Simple question which no one has answered......if A Frames are illegal or do not comply then why are they sold and why are they allowed to be used? there have been thousands sold and many more will be bought so to be honest I think most people are just commenting on pur conjecture. It's the old story, you wanna beleive in God?? That's fine by me, it just so happens that I don't, never will and do you know why?? because until someone shows me concrete proof that the Almighty exists then it is pure conjecture and not factual. That is my opinion of which I am fully entitled to but until someone proves to me that A Frames are illegal or don't comply, and as of yet no one has then I will proceed with the thought of using one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenewellhome Posted September 24, 2007 Share Posted September 24, 2007 Okay JGG, A frame towing does not comply with UK trailer law because: 1, if a trailer has brakes fitted they must work on an inertia coupling, this is the standard over-run coupling found on trailers and caravans. As cars all have brakes fitted then they must operate via that over-run coupling. 2, the brakes must be disengaged when reversing and this must be done automatically. Caravans and trailers use a special back plate for the brakes that achieves this disengagement. Obviously this is not possible on a car or you'd have no brakes when reversing. 3, the whole outfit, that is towing vehicle and trailer, must be capable of being reversed under the sole control of the driver of the towing vehicle. Despite some peoples claims to be able to do this it is impossible for anything more than a few metres. Yes the legislation doesn't quote any particular distance but consider that it means if you need to reverse then you must be able to do so for whatever distance is necessary and if that means round corners then so be it. Think you can reverse an A framed outfit round a corner? Try reversing your car round a corner without touching the steering wheel and you'll soon realise why it is impossible. Some people at this point quote that many people who tow ordinary trailers can't reverse them round a corner but that is a failing of those drivers not the outfits they're driving. The legislation refers to the outfits ability to be reversed not the drivers ability to carry out the manouvre. If you really want to tow with an A frame then go ahead but please don't try to convince the rest of us that it is legal, it simply isn't! D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miami Posted September 25, 2007 Share Posted September 25, 2007 Fed up with all this arguement. Just sold my Smart car and bought a Kalisa. Going to have a frame fitted next week at Towtal. They are now fitting frames in Spain aswell and their agent down there has investigated with the authorities and they see no problem.I would not tow a car if I had to put it on a trailer. Saw a guy put a Smart on one last week. What a performance! Looked very unstable and he admitted that he once forgot to strap the wheels on and it almost fell off.I use a Brakebuddy which obviously disengages when in reverse and the whole system is excellent.Until God (who doesn't exist!) tells me otherwise I will carry on tugging the car!All this arguement is a bit like the gassing myth. Never met anyone who has had a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted September 25, 2007 Share Posted September 25, 2007 That's your choice John and I wouldn't dare try to tell you you're wrong but I do refer you to my last line in my previous posting :-) . D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miami Posted September 25, 2007 Share Posted September 25, 2007 Hi DaveI don't disagree with your theories but there a loads of laws in this country made by governments that haven't yet been tested in a court of law. Until then I suspect we will all carry on oblivious. I still maintain that an 'A' frame is much safer than a trailer but would never tow without the vehicle being braked. At least if it does come off then the vehicle will stop. Look at the number of caravans overturned on the motorways. Driven by idiots with overloaded vans and cars that won't do the job.Only ever heard of one car coming off and that was because the 'A' frame had not been installed properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takeaflight Posted September 25, 2007 Share Posted September 25, 2007 quote Only ever heard of one car coming off and that was because the 'A' frame had not been installed properly Hi John Might be worth checking who fitted that one !!!! Roy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miami Posted September 25, 2007 Share Posted September 25, 2007 takeaflight - 2007-09-25 10:52 AM quote Only ever heard of one car coming off and that was because the 'A' frame had not been installed properly Hi John Might be worth checking who fitted that one !!!! Roy I gather it was fitted by someone who was not a recognised installer. Apparently their insurance paid for the writie off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takeaflight Posted September 25, 2007 Share Posted September 25, 2007 John have a look here http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-15267-frame.html+eye+bolt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minnie Posted September 25, 2007 Share Posted September 25, 2007 Whats all the fuss. I used an A frame to tow a Smart car and then a Fiat Punto behind a Rimor and then a Bessie. Does it not occur to anyone that towing a vehicle with chassis designed to travel at speeds of up to 80 or 90mph is going to be more stable than one of the many top heavy trailers with spindly little wheels? Think about it!! Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miami Posted September 25, 2007 Share Posted September 25, 2007 Minnie - 2007-09-25 8:58 PM Whats all the fuss. I used an A frame to tow a Smart car and then a Fiat Punto behind a Rimor and then a Bessie. Does it not occur to anyone that towing a vehicle with chassis designed to travel at speeds of up to 80 or 90mph is going to be more stable than one of the many top heavy trailers with spindly little wheels? Think about it!! Mike Well said Minnie. Exactly my thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted September 25, 2007 Share Posted September 25, 2007 Looking at that link to Towtal they seem not only to have produced a poor piece of engineering, they also apear to have made the towed car illegal to drive, not that I guess many police will notice unless you happen to run down a pedestrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhc Posted September 25, 2007 Share Posted September 25, 2007 Ask TowTal how many units per year they are building - you might be surprised. I'm sure they would not leave themselves open to potentially 000's of claims. The debate continues.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A W Posted September 26, 2007 Share Posted September 26, 2007 Well it is the chestnut season! There are many people on this site who tie themselves up in knots about the legality of A frames. I think they are missing the point.There is no way the Police/CPS will spend a lot of money prosecuting anyone for this as obviously they also know its a grey area and will not risk losing a case.On that single point I can speak with some authority. BUT it is vital that your insurance company know precisely what you are doing and it is in writing. I'm sure there will be those who will say that is all very well until there is an accident and then the Police will take a closer interest.Perhaps, but it would need to be a major accident for that to happen. I can no longer use an A frame because our motorhome is French registered and as well as the convience I miss the reaction of the Germans and French to such a device and there envious comments. Happy motorhoming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miami Posted September 26, 2007 Share Posted September 26, 2007 There appears to be a point perhaps we are missing here. The law apparently states that a trailer has to be able to be reversed whilst connected to the towing vehicle. What it fails to mention is that all trailers as such cannot be moved under their own steam. A car can be unhitched and driven off. Perhaps this is the grey area or I am missing another point here. I am sure someone will point it out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Søren Posted September 26, 2007 Share Posted September 26, 2007 I've reported and prosecuted several motor vehicles towing vehicles using unbraked A frames. I've got one at court in the next few weeks for the usual A frame offences. As of now he's pleading not guilty, but tbh I don't know why, the offences are complete. All the cases I have reported have been the used car dealer having purchased a car at auction, towing it down country using an unbraked A-frame. It's many degrees more hazardous than towing a Smart by a 4 ton motorhome, but the legal principle is just the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Søren Posted September 26, 2007 Share Posted September 26, 2007 Miami - 2007-09-26 9:51 AMThere appears to be a point perhaps we are missing here. The law apparently states that a trailer has to be able to be reversed whilst connected to the towing vehicle. What it fails to mention is that all trailers as such cannot be moved under their own steam. A car can be unhitched and driven off. Perhaps this is the grey area or I am missing another point here. I am sure someone will point it out!Unfortunately while your car is attached via A frame to your motorhome, it is a trailer. While it is being used in that way it must be able to reverse. AIUI the toe-in geometry of the towed car front wheels will assist when travelling forwards, but frustrate any attempts at reversing. I'd personally like to see the law make certain allowances for motorhomes or vehicles whose unladen weight is greater than perhaps twice the gvw of the towed vehicle. I wouldn't know if there is any lobby to that effect, but it would allow the law to tie in with the (unwritten) discretionary practices currently adopted by most traffic police. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michele Posted September 26, 2007 Share Posted September 26, 2007 Soren, Do you mind me asking what is it you do ?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Søren Posted September 26, 2007 Share Posted September 26, 2007 michele - 2007-09-26 6:52 PM Soren, Do you mind me asking what is it you do ?. Not at all, I'm a traffic police officer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michele Posted September 26, 2007 Share Posted September 26, 2007 Oh good we need one on here straighten out a few things .. :D Oh sorry forgot welcome to the happy house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted September 26, 2007 Share Posted September 26, 2007 Hi Soren ... welcome ... I'm sure you'll be a very useful 'addition' to the forum! :-D Now if you were a traffic warden .... (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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