"A" Frame Towing (again)

[Guest JudgeMental]

 

Calm down ladies, lets not frighten the nice officer oft :-D

[michele]

Have not suceeded with the one at home yet :D

 

Anyway thats enough better get off this thread before I upset someone thas not hard to do lately on here :D

[Guest starspirit]

If Soren can tell us his patch please we can all make a point of not towing our A frames through it.

Thanks.

[Mel B]

JudgeMental - 2007-09-26 8:38 PM

 

 

Calm down ladies, lets not frighten the nice officer oft :-D

 

Now then Judge, don't get all jealous ... just because we like a man in uniform (or even out of it occasionally as you well know!) ;-) :$

[bigal55]

Minnie - 2007-09-25 8:58 PM

 

Whats all the fuss. I used an A frame to tow a Smart car and then a Fiat Punto behind a Rimor and then a Bessie. Does it not occur to anyone that towing a vehicle with chassis designed to travel at speeds of up to 80 or 90mph is going to be more stable than one of the many top heavy trailers with spindly little wheels?

 

Think about it!!

 

Mike

perhaps i,m missing something but i,snt this caravaning in reverse,why leave your m/home on site and drive a smart car etc, a caravan is usually more roomy than a m/home and generally towed by a high spec vehicle

[colin]

mhc - 2007-09-25 11:43 PM

 

Ask TowTal how many units per year they are building - you might be surprised. I'm sure they would not leave themselves open to potentially 000's of claims.

A couple of days ago I might have agreed with you, and I had thought it was just a matter of technicalities, but after reading the motorhomefacts thread and looking at Towtal web site I've had a change of heart.

 

They show a picture on website of a modded Smartcar, as pictured it is a bad piece of design, those type of eyebolts should not be used like that.

When the A frame is removed the two eyebolts are left protruding throu the front of car, this 'may' be acceptable on an older vehicle, but I think not on a newer vehicle which has to be designed so as to protect pedestrian in event of an accident.

Poster on MHF states that Towtal told him they use shouldered eyebolts, not on the smart in photo.

As stated by a poster on MHF the translation is a joke.

Do Towtal leave themselves open to claims? well they wouldn't be the first company too, Ford believed it was cheaper to pay compensation for deaths in the pinto than mod car ,GM still won't issue recall for Cavaliers/SAABs where the steering rack breaks away from bulkhead.

 

[Søren]

michele - 2007-09-26 7:25 PM

 

Oh good we need one on here straighten out a few things .. :D

Oh sorry forgot welcome to the happy house.

 

and

Mel B - 2007-09-26 7:50 PM

 

Hi Soren ... welcome ... I'm sure you'll be a very useful 'addition' to the forum! :-D

 

Now if you were a traffic warden .... (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol)

 

Thanks for the welcome!

 

I can bring a traffic warden along to the debate if you wish!, and yes, we do have a double act! 8-) (lol)

 

I've been trawling here for a little while. I intend to buy a 'van in 2 years while my kids are young enough to want to come with us. So I'll be looking for advice from all the experience on this site.

 

 

[Miami]

Søren - 2007-09-26 6:11 PM  Unfortunately while your car is attached via A frame to your motorhome, it is a trailer. While it is being used in that way it must be able to reverse. AIUI the toe-in geometry of the towed car front wheels will assist when travelling forwards, but frustrate any attempts at reversing. I'd personally like to see the law make certain allowances for motorhomes or vehicles whose unladen weight is greater than perhaps twice the gvw of the towed vehicle. I wouldn't know if there is any lobby to that effect, but it would allow the law to tie in with the (unwritten) discretionary practices currently adopted by most traffic police.

Hi Søren. Welcome to the debate!

Someone who looks as if they actually know what they are talking about!

The above sounds interesting. Are you suggesting that this would then allow towing with an 'A' frame even though you can't reverse?

Perhaps you could answer this question? Is it possible to tow on a car on a dolly with just the front wheels off the ground or is this only allowed as a recovery method.

[pmitic]

what is a Kalisa

[Miami]

pmitic - 2007-09-27 9:24 AM what is a Kalisa

A lightweight Perodua car made in Malasia!

[pmitic]

Thanks for that but the next question is where can I get one

 

[Mel E]

John S,

 

Towing using a dolly is specifically covered in the Regulations - i.e., there is no ambiguity as it is often claimed is the case with A-frames. Towing with a dolly is ONLY permitted in law:

 

- for recovery of a broken down vehicle (i.e., if the vehicle is not broken down it is illegal)

 

- at speed limits of 40mph on motoways and 20mph everywhere else, so that, even if you doubt the illegality, you'll be going dangerously slowly unless you have one of those yellow flashing lights . . .

 

Mel E

====

[enodreven]

Hi, Thanks for your input its very helpful

 

On the subject of reversing, there initially seems 2 problems

 

"(assuming that we are talking about an "A" frame that has been purposely designed and bolted/welded to the car and has an over run braking system similar to a trailer except for the reverse braking)"

 

The first problem appears to be the inability to stop the over run brake from being applied when you start the reverse maneuver and the second is the inability to control the direction of the car/trailer when being reversed due as you have stated "AIUI the toe-in geometry of the towed car front wheels will assist when travelling forwards, but frustrate any attempts at reversing"

 

Possible solutions would these work ???

 

Reverse Braking

Could the reverse braking can be over come by the addition of some form of electrical mechanical device working off of the towing vehicles reverse lights and affecting an opposite pressure on the over run device thus holding it open automatically when reverse is selected thus allowing the vehicle to be reversed without the brakes coming on.

 

Controlling the reverse direction ?

 

2 questions/suggestions

 

The first is, do the regulations actually state categorically that the reverse maneuver of a trailer when attached to a towing vehicle has to be automatic without any intervention by the drive or drivers mate, The reason I am asking this is because one of my suggestions would be for some one to return to the towed vehicle and apply the steering lock making sure that the wheels were in line, hence my next suggestion/question

 

Would it be possible to meet the requirements for reversing the Car/Trailer if the front steering wheels were locked in line with the rears ? I know it may be difficult but then I don't think the law states that the driver has to be good at reversing other wise i think most caravan owners would have a problem

 

the second question/suggestion, is probably completely stupid but how would the tow car perform in regard to these questions if it was being towed backwards ?? please if this is stupid fine but its just a thought and as i firstly admit I have never towed anything, so please don't dismiss the rest of this post, as I am just trying to be positive about the use of "A" frames

 

Thanks

Brian

 

Søren - 2007-09-26 6:11 PM

 

Unfortunately while your car is attached via A frame to your motorhome, it is a trailer. While it is being used in that way it must be able to reverse. AIUI the toe-in geometry of the towed car front wheels will assist when travelling forwards, but frustrate any attempts at reversing.

 

I'd personally like to see the law make certain allowances for motorhomes or vehicles whose unladen weight is greater than perhaps twice the gvw of the towed vehicle. I wouldn't know if there is any lobby to that effect, but it would allow the law to tie in with the (unwritten) discretionary practices currently adopted by most traffic police.

[Mel E]

Brian,

 

Sorry to appear negative, but all your suggestions - fine as they are - have been floated on this forum before and aswered. But, what the hell, here goes again!

 

 

Reverse Braking

Could the reverse braking can be over come by the addition of some form of electrical mechanical device working off of the towing vehicles reverse lights and affecting an opposite pressure on the over run device thus holding it open automatically when reverse is selected thus allowing the vehicle to be reversed without the brakes coming on.

 

What is required is some sort of servo device. Various people have said that it is possible to develop such a device, but it would be costly to do so and put it into production - probably not worthwhile for the number of A-frames and additional cost involved.

 

Besides, it still doesn't solve the problem of controlling the direction of the car/trailer in reverse.

 

Controlling the reverse direction ?

 

2 questions/suggestions

 

The first is, do the regulations actually state categorically that the reverse maneuver of a trailer when attached to a towing vehicle has to be automatic without any intervention by the drive or drivers mate, The reason I am asking this is because one of my suggestions would be for some one to return to the towed vehicle and apply the steering lock making sure that the wheels were in line, hence my next suggestion/question

 

Would it be possible to meet the requirements for reversing the Car/Trailer if the front steering wheels were locked in line with the rears ? I know it may be difficult but then I don't think the law states that the driver has to be good at reversing other wise i think most caravan owners would have a problem

 

Yes, they state categorically, (as Dave Newell has already pointed out earlier in this thread), that no manual intervention is permitted. So locking the car steering does not meet with the requirements of the law. And, of course, leaving the front wheels permanently locked would cause the tyres to scrub, overheat and, eventually, probably to blow out - remember that the car is different from a four wheel trailer with fixed wheels as in the case of the car, the wheels are the wheelbase apart while they are close coupled on a four-wheel trailer. Any of you A-frame enthusiasts want to give it a try?

 

the second question/suggestion, is probably completely stupid but how would the tow car perform in regard to these questions if it was being towed backwards ?? please if this is stupid fine but its just a thought and as i firstly admit I have never towed anything, so please don't dismiss the rest of this post, as I am just trying to be positive about the use of "A" frames

 

Well, whatever happened when the rig went forward (rather a lot of lateral oscillation, I would think), it would make reversing even more impossible!

 

Hope that clarifies

 

Mel E

====

[Mel E]

A-FRAME TOWING - A FEW OBSERVATIONS

 

Here we have yet another thread on the subject covering the same old territory. There seem to be 5 different types of contributor:

 

- those who (tiredly by now!) repeat what the various regulations say about trailers to highlight the problems with A-Frame towing (there is actually nothing in law about A-Frames specifically except for recovery.

 

- those who question and/or dismiss what is said about the law without having any better chapter and verse to quote. Many are naive enough to say 'they wouldn't sell it if it was illegal'. IN UK Law, YOU make the offer to buy (hence 'Buyer Beware') and the seller seals the contract by agreeing to sell. Markets and even shops are full of illegal items (counterfeit products, etc) - so the argument doesn't wash.

 

- those who blythely say 'I'm ignoring the law because it is an ass / hasn't been tested / etc'. Go ahead, but, as this thread shows, it HAS been tested successfully, though mostly against motor dealer towing unbraked.

 

- a large swathe of A-Frame towers (of whom I used to be one) who say "it's safe, so it must be OK, regardless of the law". So is climbing Canary Wharf Tower with the right skills and equipment but it doesn't make it legal! As for safety, I for one have had a different experience!

 

- and finally there are those who say "I've never met anyone who has been stopped by Continental Police!" Well, I have - twice in Spain - and it cost them heavily. But, then again, maybe I just meet the wrong sort of people . . .

 

Please, if these discussions are to serve any useful purpose, can we try and minimise the amount of pure speculation? Or move it to the Chatterbox Forum where you can speculate your brain away?

 

Not trying to upset anyone but probably upsetting everone!

 

Mel E

====

 

 

[enodreven]

Hi, Mel E

 

Thanks for your reply but as I think you have said the brakeing problem can be overcome ? albeit whether its cost effective is another question

 

Quote Mel E - 2007-09-27 10:58 AM

What is required is some sort of servo device. Various people have said that it is possible to develop such a device, but it would be costly to do so and put it into production - probably not worthwhile for the number of A-frames and additional cost involved.

 

Controlling the reverse direction ?

 

Quote Mel E

Yes, they state categorically, (as Dave Newell has already pointed out earlier in this thread), that no manual intervention is permitted. So locking the car steering does not meet with the requirements of the law.

 

Have you had a chance to find those regulations that you said you would have a look for,

 

If you really, insis, I will go beck to my article preparation archives and dig out the relevant cluase numbers. However, everything since about 1988 is available online (which means the original 1986 Regulations are not, but all the emendments are). Or go to you nearest big library and they will have all the various compendiums to examine - I know, I've done it.

 

As i can only find the regulation that clearly appertains to the brakeing system being automatic as i posted? so i really would be grateful if you could find the informtion as i am having trouble finding regulations that are clearly directed at the method of control of the trailer ?as i am sure you are aware having done this type of research before

 

Thanks

Brian

 

[Miami]

pmitic - 2007-09-27 9:53 AM Thanks for that but the next question is where can I get one

Have sent you an email

[Dave Newell]

Mel E - 2007-09-27 11:18 AM

 

A-FRAME TOWING - A FEW OBSERVATIONS

 

Here we have yet another thread on the subject covering the same old territory. There seem to be 5 different types of contributor:

 

- those who (tiredly by now!) repeat what the various regulations say about trailers to highlight the problems with A-Frame towing (there is actually nothing in law about A-Frames specifically except for recovery.

 

- those who question and/or dismiss what is said about the law without having any better chapter and verse to quote. Many are naive enough to say 'they wouldn't sell it if it was illegal'. IN UK Law, YOU make the offer to buy (hence 'Buyer Beware') and the seller seals the contract by agreeing to sell. Markets and even shops are full of illegal items (counterfeit products, etc) - so the argument doesn't wash.

 

- those who blythely say 'I'm ignoring the law because it is an ass / hasn't been tested / etc'. Go ahead, but, as this thread shows, it HAS been tested successfully, though mostly against motor dealer towing unbraked.

 

- a large swathe of A-Frame towers (of whom I used to be one) who say "it's safe, so it must be OK, regardless of the law". So is climbing Canary Wharf Tower with the right skills and equipment but it doesn't make it legal! As for safety, I for one have had a different experience!

 

- and finally there are those who say "I've never met anyone who has been stopped by Continental Police!" Well, I have - twice in Spain - and it cost them heavily. But, then again, maybe I just meet the wrong sort of people . . .

 

Please, if these discussions are to serve any useful purpose, can we try and minimise the amount of pure speculation? Or move it to the Chatterbox Forum where you can speculate your brain away?

 

Not trying to upset anyone but probably upsetting everone!

 

Mel E

====

 

 

Thanks Mel, I'd given up contributing to this thread for exactly the reasons you state and I couldn't have put it better if I'd tried. I find it interesting that the thread originator has left it alone now too. you might upset some with your comments but not me, I'm in total agreement with you ;-)

 

D.

[Guest JudgeMental]

pmitic - 2007-09-27 9:24 AM

 

what is a Kalisa

 

looks like a rebadged old shape nissan micra to me? - whats the weight like?

[Miami]

JudgeMental - 2007-09-27 1:31 PM

pmitic - 2007-09-27 9:24 AM what is a Kalisa

looks like a rebadged old shape nissan micra to me? - whats the weight like?

760 Kg so needs brakes

see the perodua site

[Guest JudgeMental]

Miami - 2007-09-27 1:42 PM

JudgeMental - 2007-09-27 1:31 PM

pmitic - 2007-09-27 9:24 AM what is a Kalisa

looks like a rebadged old shape nissan micra to me? - whats the weight like?

760 Kg so needs brakes

see the perodua site

that is light - so not a micra?I did look at site but could not see weight details

[Dave Newell]

Miami - 2007-09-27 1:42 PM

JudgeMental - 2007-09-27 1:31 PM

pmitic - 2007-09-27 9:24 AM what is a Kalisa

looks like a rebadged old shape nissan micra to me? - whats the weight like?

760 Kg so needs brakes

see the perodua site

As brakes are fitted they have to work anyway, the weight is totally irrelevant.D.

[enodreven]

Dave, I knew you couldn't resist?? LoLQuoteThanks Mel, I'd given up contributing to this thread for exactly the reasons you state and I couldn't have put it better if I'd tried.

Dave Newell - 2007-09-27 2:54 PM

Miami - 2007-09-27 1:42 PM

JudgeMental - 2007-09-27 1:31 PM

pmitic - 2007-09-27 9:24 AM what is a Kalisa

looks like a rebadged old shape nissan micra to me? - whats the weight like?

760 Kg so needs brakes

see the perodua site

As brakes are fitted they have to work anyway, the weight is totally irrelevant.D.

[Guest JudgeMental]

Dave Newell - 2007-09-27 2:54 PM

Miami - 2007-09-27 1:42 PM

JudgeMental - 2007-09-27 1:31 PM

pmitic - 2007-09-27 9:24 AM what is a Kalisa

looks like a rebadged old shape nissan micra to me? - whats the weight like?

760 Kg so needs brakes

see the perodua site

As brakes are fitted they have to work anyway, the weight is totally irrelevant.D.

not if you are thinking of using a trailer....... :-D its hard to find a car/trailer combination under 1000kg

[Miami]

enodreven - 2007-09-27 3:20 PM Dave, I knew you couldn't resist?? LoL Quote Thanks Mel, I'd given up contributing to this thread for exactly the reasons you state and I couldn't have put it better if I'd tried.

Dave Newell - 2007-09-27 2:54 PM

Miami - 2007-09-27 1:42 PM

JudgeMental - 2007-09-27 1:31 PM

pmitic - 2007-09-27 9:24 AM what is a Kalisa

looks like a rebadged old shape nissan micra to me? - whats the weight like?

760 Kg so needs brakes

see the perodua site

As brakes are fitted they have to work anyway, the weight is totally irrelevant. D.

Correct as I understand it but not as some others think.