"A" Frame Towing (again)

[A W]

Thank you Jen's grumpy git

Your posting has been a bit of fun and put some life into a quiet week on this forum

[Miami]

A W - 2007-09-27 5:53 PM Thank you Jen's grumpy git Your posting has been a bit of fun and put some life into a quiet week on this forum

If anyone mentions 'A' frames again let's all point them here. Can't face all the arguments again!!!!!

[davenewellhome]

enodreven - 2007-09-27 3:20 PMDave, I knew you couldn't resist?? LoLQuoteThanks Mel, I'd given up contributing to this thread for exactly the reasons you state and I couldn't have put it better if I'd tried.

Dave Newell - 2007-09-27 2:54 PM

Miami - 2007-09-27 1:42 PM

JudgeMental - 2007-09-27 1:31 PM

pmitic - 2007-09-27 9:24 AM what is a Kalisa

looks like a rebadged old shape nissan micra to me? - whats the weight like?

760 Kg so needs brakes

see the perodua site

As brakes are fitted they have to work anyway, the weight is totally irrelevant.D.

I'm not sure why you find a simple statement of fact so humorous Brian.D.

[davenewellhome]

JudgeMental - 2007-09-27 3:26 PM

Dave Newell - 2007-09-27 2:54 PM

Miami - 2007-09-27 1:42 PM

JudgeMental - 2007-09-27 1:31 PM

pmitic - 2007-09-27 9:24 AM what is a Kalisa

looks like a rebadged old shape nissan micra to me? - whats the weight like?

760 Kg so needs brakes

see the perodua site

As brakes are fitted they have to work anyway, the weight is totally irrelevant.D.

not if you are thinking of using a trailer....... :-D its hard to find a car/trailer combination under 1000kg

As the thread is all about A frame towing exactly when did trailers come into it Eddie?D.

[davenewellhome]

Miami - 2007-09-27 5:58 PM

A W - 2007-09-27 5:53 PM Thank you Jen's grumpy git Your posting has been a bit of fun and put some life into a quiet week on this forum

If anyone mentions 'A' frames again let's all point them here. Can't face all the arguments again!!!!!

Tried this before, the A frame lobbyists never seem to get the idea of looking at what has already been posted. They prefer to ignore all the advice already given and start a new thread to discuss it all over again with inane comments like "please don't bring the legal issues into this discussion". Sorry, but as the whole subject is surrounded by a legal issue how can it ever be discussed without taking the legal issues into consideration?That's my last word on A frames!D.

[davenewellhome]

Until.......................................... :-D :-D :-D

 

D.

[enodreven]

Hi, Dave

 

In answer to your question why do I find it funny ?? its because you just can't stay out of these topics even when you say you are going to, hence the reason why i copied your comment from an earlier post, sorry if you don't find it funny ?

 

As for the"please don't bring the legal issues into this discussion". If you are referring to the thread I started some time ago, i would suggest that i did clarify that statement and I thought made it clear that i was trying to take a constructive approach to the subject and hopefully stop all of the barrack room lawyers getting involved and steering the topic away from the main subject which was not on the actual legality is was as said to try and find modifications that could be implemented to make them meet the regulations.

 

I really do question why people who quiet clearly think that everything that can be said or done to perhaps make "A" frames meet the regulations has actually been looked at and that there is no room for further discussion, actually take the time and trouble to get involved with these topics as to the best of my knowledge there is no obligation upon anyone to have to add comments if they don't want to.

 

However far from being a waste of time It would seem that from the discussions the only issue regarding making certain types of "A" frames meet the regulations that still needs to be overcome, is the one of reversing the actual trailer/car as every other item that has been raised against there use, a modification has been identified either on this web site or one of the others where the subject has been being discussed. Albeit the actual devices need to be designed and manufactured or identified as something suitable may already exist for another piece of machinery.

 

Therefore with that in mind i would still like to see the actual regulation paragraphs that have been quoted from regarding the actual reversing of the "trailer" excluding the braking as i have identified the regulation covering the braking already and that's how a way forward on that part of the subject has been made. So if anyone can point me to the actual regulation paragraphs that specifically cover the actual reversing of the trailer i would appreciate it. As while I am not saying that it does not exist i really would like to read it in context with the rest of the regulation, as i have said before people may see the same regulation and interpret it differently, that seem to be how the legal system within this country survives on interpretation ?

 

Thanks

 

 

[Mel B]

AAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH ... oh no, it's contageous "quotitus" is spreading ...........

:-S :D

[colin]

From my investigations so far it would appear that the type of A frame attachment shown on Towtal site may well have been illegal from 25th May 2007 when the towed car is driven on its own, but I am awaiting a reply from VCA on this, but what ever the reply I would suggest any one with a car modified for an A frame inform their insurance company of this.

[enodreven]

Hi,

 

I am not sure of exactly what modifications you are talking about but if its the protruding items extending beyond the bumper, I would think that a relatively simple modification or additional tool being supplied with the kit, that allowed these items to be removed would assist in overcoming a problem when the car is being used ??.

 

Just a question is it illegal to have bull bars fitted ?

 

Update:-

 

It appears that the old style bull bars have been made illegal to manufacture as from the date, but it does appear that new style ones are being produced along with other front protection systems, so if the above mechanical method cannot be implemented then perhaps a front protection system can be made to over come any possible problems

 

Just trying to look at any problems with a view to overcoming them ?

 

Hope this helps

 

 

 

 

 

colin - 2007-09-27 10:28 PM

 

From my investigations so far it would appear that the type of A frame attachment shown on Towtal site may well have been illegal from 25th May 2007 when the towed car is driven on its own, but I am awaiting a reply from VCA on this, but what ever the reply I would suggest any one with a car modified for an A frame inform their insurance company of this.

[Miami]

From today's  New Highway Code

98

Vehicle towing and loading. As a driver

• you MUST NOT tow more than your licence permits. If you passed a car test after 1 Jan 1997 you are restricted on the weight of trailer you can tow
• you MUST NOT overload your vehicle or trailer. You should not tow a weight greater than that recommended by the manufacturer of your vehicle
• you MUST secure your load and it MUST NOT stick out dangerously. Make sure any heavy or sharp objects and any animals are secured safely. If there is a collision, they might hit someone inside the vehicle and cause serious injury
• you should properly distribute the weight in your caravan or trailer with heavy items mainly over the axle(s) and ensure a downward load on the tow ball.
• Manufacturer’s recommended weight and tow ball load should not be exceeded. This should avoid the possibility of swerving or snaking and going out of control. If this does happen, ease off the accelerator and reduce speed gently to regain control
•  
• carrying a load or pulling a trailer may require you to adjust the headlights

• Thou shalt not tow a car behind a motorhome with a device called an 'A' frame unless the total unit is capable of being reversed.

In the event of a breakdown, be aware that towing a vehicle on a tow rope is potentially dangerous. You should consider professional recovery.

So there we have it guys- It's a no go!!!!  Ha Ha!!!

End of Subject! I think not!

[Guest JudgeMental]

 

but surely installing a metal frame behind bumper, which I believe A frame companies do? with the worst having eye bolts sticking through! effects the vehicles crash worthiness? - and will leave owners open to prosecution and private litigation if involved in an accident - particularly with a pedestrian...

 

do people who have this done inform there insurance companies of changes to vehicles?

 

with two threads now going this is getting stupid *-)

[Guest starspirit]

I'm not into towing - I gave that up years ago when I sold my caravan, but surely if the car's towing eyes are removable by being screwed into secured captive nut type fixings on the car and are unscrewed before the car is driven solo there is not a problem with pedestrian injury risk?

[Guest JudgeMental]

starspirit - 2007-09-28 12:11 PM

 

I'm not into towing - I gave that up years ago when I sold my caravan, but surely if the car's towing eyes are removable by being screwed into secured captive nut type fixings on the car and are unscrewed before the car is driven solo there is not a problem with pedestrian injury risk?

 

 

I must admit as some one else said it is a bit like caravaning in reverse*-)

 

cars have crumple zones designed to deform and absorb the impact of a collision. and will not be on the road if they dont meet modern standards.

I believe the bumper as are designed to protect pedestrians from low speed impacts. if you place a steel bar directly behind the bumper- that is what I am getting at?

 

I know they fit a steel frame behind because last year I was going to get an A frame for a colt. and they where unsure if it was feasible as they needed to remove front to check if frame could be fitted as they had not done a colt before.

[donna miller]

Surely if you feel the need to tow something behind you, then you would be better off with a caravan or a 5th wheel unit.

 

That way you couldn't legally tow anything else behind you............................ Unless you had a showmans licence of course, that would let you tow a "habitation unit" behind your lorry and trailer, but thats the fuel for another thread.

 

[Minnie]

Please don't take offence but you are missing the point.

 

 

[donna miller]

 

 

Minnie.

 

No offence taken, but if you read the other 476 threads on A frames, you will know why I said what I did.

[Minnie]

Sorry donna miller, I was trying to reply to bigal55 (26 Sept) but clearly I can't use the system properly!!!

[Søren]

Miami - 2007-09-27 7:46 AM

Søren - 2007-09-26 6:11 PM  Unfortunately while your car is attached via A frame to your motorhome, it is a trailer. While it is being used in that way it must be able to reverse. AIUI the toe-in geometry of the towed car front wheels will assist when travelling forwards, but frustrate any attempts at reversing. I'd personally like to see the law make certain allowances for motorhomes or vehicles whose unladen weight is greater than perhaps twice the gvw of the towed vehicle. I wouldn't know if there is any lobby to that effect, but it would allow the law to tie in with the (unwritten) discretionary practices currently adopted by most traffic police.

Hi Søren. Welcome to the debate!

Someone who looks as if they actually know what they are talking about!

The above sounds interesting. Are you suggesting that this would then allow towing with an 'A' frame even though you can't reverse?

Perhaps you could answer this question? Is it possible to tow on a car on a dolly with just the front wheels off the ground or is this only allowed as a recovery method.

No it's possible to do this. However it's considered to be two trailers, and as such you are restricted by speed regs to 40mph on motorways and 20mph on all other roads.Edited to addHaving read Mel E's reply earlier, my understanding of towing implements (or dollies) was that they were intended for use to recover broken down vehicles. I'm not personally aware of law prohibiting their use in other circumstances, although I'm not enough of a legal anorak to be clear on that matter. Certainly the speed limits along with a few other con and use issues should prevent their use for anything other than broken down vehicles.

[colin]

Disclaimer- I am no lawyer so the following is my opinion and not nessasaraly fact, you may wish to confirm it yourselves if you are concerned that you may be breaking any laws.

I had been concerned that following the introduction of 'Bull Bar' regulations, the fixing for Towtal A frame on the towed car might fall of these new laws, but it would appear that the new law is so tied in with 'Frontal Protection Systems' that although Towtal fixings would proboly fail to win approval, they don't need to, BUT as shown on Towtal website there are two eyebolts protruding out the front of the car, IF you where to run into another road user and they where injured then you MIGHT be penalised for making your car more dangerous for other users (you pay your money ,you take the risk) I would say, make sure you inform your insurance company that your car has been modified with this fixing.