Gas Usage.

[panagah]

Has anyone any knowlege to work out gas consumption? Now before I get any length of string answers.. :-D I am merely talking about heating overnight. How many nights would anybody have experience of before replacing the bottle. I am going skiing and intend to use an electric heater during the day and the Gas at night, (fans to noisey).

 

Also I have space for two Gas bottles but was curious to reccomendations for carrying a third. Can one be carried secured in the van or would people not reccomend that.

Thankyou in anticipation of your answers

[Brian Kirby]

You'll need to say what size gas bottles you can fit in your van, how many, and what kind of heater (make/model) it is heated with.  You'll need propane.

[davenewellhome]

The trouble is Paul that it is very much a length of string question. There are just so many factors involved. What is the expected outside nighttime temperature? What sort of temperature do you wish to maintain inside? How well insulated is your 'van? Some detail on what your 'van is might help as then people with similar 'vans could give their findings.

 

Sorry if this is not what you want to read but you need to give more details to get any useful answers I fear. ;-)

 

D.

[michele]

Paul we took two 13kg last year we didnt even get through one that was full pelt for the week. But as Dave says lenght of string young man need more info please.. :D

[panagah]

Thanks for your replies.

As insulation goes, although like many vans my van is meant to be fully winterised I am sure it isn't. The water tank is inside (under seat) but it only has the skin-polystuff-and of course the wallboard. I am sure I have 8.5kg bottles and I know about the propane and freezing gas. Notsure michelle if 13kg bottles would fit in my locker so perhaps i should try and see. As regard maintaining temp, unfortunately on My CI (2003 carioca5) it is not fitted with a thermostat control for gas heating, Never thougth I would need it but then again never thought at knocking 40 I would want to try skiing!

 

So michelle you are saying that two 13.5 kg bottles should be plenty? I know we lose heat from our garage doors (read dec MMM for more info only 7 days) *-) and does yoour van have thermostatic controlled heating?

[michele]

Paul I'm not the best to advise but in answer to your question yes ours is thermostatic controlled .

 

I dont want to worry you un neccessary and I have forgot how long you said you would be away but I 'm not going with less than two bottle of 13 kg. The reasons are I never know when I could break down silly some may say ? I never know when I could be stuck up the small roads especially travelling there at the start of the season the mountain passes can be really bad often delays and often accidents so maybe I might need it . Also I cook alot and hubby loves his creature comforts plus the kids .

So for us no less than two 13kg full .

I will read MMM Dec have you done the article yourself re the garage door ?

[panagah]

michele - 2007-11-15 9:32 PM

 

Paul I'm not the best to advise but in answer to your question yes ours is thermostatic controlled .

 

I dont want to worry you un neccessary and I have forgot how long you said you would be away but I 'm not going with less than two bottle of 13 kg. The reasons are I never know when I could break down silly some may say ? I never know when I could be stuck up the small roads especially travelling there at the start of the season the mountain passes can be really bad often delays and often accidents so maybe I might need it . Also I cook alot and hubby loves his creature comforts plus the kids .

So for us no less than two 13kg full .

I will read MMM Dec have you done the article yourself re the garage door ?

 

That sounds like our family, I Have electric heaters so we should be OK just wanted to be sure. Yes look for the article living with, just awaiting me cheque

[michele]

Paul living with ???? a leaky garage ? a carioca ? My wife ? :D the kids :D come on give us a clue :D

Are you there for 1 or 2 weeks ?

[michele]

Calor are delighted to announce the launch of a new lightweight cylinder - designed and built specifically with caravanners in mind. The new Calor liteTM cylinders are 49.7% lighter than the current Calor 6Kg, helping you reduce the nose weight of your caravan. Calor liteTM will be available from March 2008.

 

 

thanks found it

sorry wrongthread

[panagah]

michele - 2007-11-15 9:42 PM

 

Paul living with ???? a leaky garage ? a carioca ? My wife ? :D the kids :D come on give us a clue :D

Are you there for 1 or 2 weeks ?

 

10 nights.

[michele]

paul make sure you have enough otherwise you are in trouble unless you have the french conectors.

[Derek Uzzell]

Panagah:

 

The gas lockers on Italian-built motorhomes will normally accept two 13kg 'Continental' gas cylinders. These tend to be slightly smaller dimensionally than Calor's 13kg propane bottle, but there's still a good chance you can wriggle two big Calor bottles in. If you can't get the two Calor bottles in, then you may be able to fit one 13kg Calor plus one slightly smaller (11kg) capacity propane bottle from another supplier (eg. Flogas), or two 11kg bottles, or one 13kg Calor + one 6kg Calor.

 

I hear what you say about having 8.5kg bottles at present, though this is not a UK propane bottle capacity as far as I'm aware. The Caravan Club's cylinder-size table quotes capacities available in the UK as Calor - 3.9kg/6kg/13kg, with 4.7kg and 11kg bottles available from other suppliers.

 

It's very probable that your Carioca has Truma gas heating and, to the best of my knowledge, all Truma heaters fitted to motorhomes include a thermostat, whether they be traditional 'fires' (like the ubiquitous S-3002 model that I suspect your CI has) or pure blown-air appliances (Truma C- and E-Series). According to Truma a S-3002 uses from 30 -280 g/h of gas, so (given the weather conditions you are likely to encounter) I'd guess at a gas usage for night-time heating of around 1kg per night. I do ask myself why, if a substantial 230V power supply will be available, you don't just use that exclusively for heating. I know you say you consider an electric fan heater too noisy, but some are much quieter than others. As Michele advises, ensure that you've got the appropriate 230V hook-up adapters that will allow you to hook-up to the mains in whatever country (or countries) you will be visiting. Also make sure your hook-up cable is a long one.

 

For safety reasons it's clearly best if all gas bottles are housed within a motorhome's gas locker. I can't see any great objection to carrying an extra cylinder in a 'garage' as long as the bottle is very firmly secured, though you may need to consider the additional weight (close to 30kg for a full 13kg cylinder) that you will be placing behind the rear axle. Carrying gas bottles within the motorhome's living space is unwise (however well they are tethered), though I'm sure it's done. Ferry company regulations may limit the number of gas cylinders that can be carried and/or insist they be carried in a purpose-made storage compartment. Whether anyone checks is another matter!

[panagah]

Derek Uzzell - 2007-11-16 9:16 AM

 

Panagah:

 

The gas lockers on Italian-built motorhomes will normally accept two 13kg 'Continental' gas cylinders. These tend to be slightly smaller dimensionally than Calor's 13kg propane bottle, but there's still a good chance you can wriggle two big Calor bottles in. If you can't get the two Calor bottles in, then you may be able to fit one 13kg Calor plus one slightly smaller (11kg) capacity propane bottle from another supplier (eg. Flogas), or two 11kg bottles, or one 13kg Calor + one 6kg Calor.

 

I hear what you say about having 8.5kg bottles at present, though this is not a UK propane bottle capacity as far as I'm aware. The Caravan Club's cylinder-size table quotes capacities available in the UK as Calor - 3.9kg/6kg/13kg, with 4.7kg and 11kg bottles available from other suppliers.

 

It's very probable that your Carioca has Truma gas heating and, to the best of my knowledge, all Truma heaters fitted to motorhomes include a thermostat, whether they be traditional 'fires' (like the ubiquitous S-3002 model that I suspect your CI has) or pure blown-air appliances (Truma C- and E-Series). According to Truma a S-3002 uses from 30 -280 g/h of gas, so (given the weather conditions you are likely to encounter) I'd guess at a gas usage for night-time heating of around 1kg per night. I do ask myself why, if a substantial 230V power supply will be available, you don't just use that exclusively for heating. I know you say you consider an electric fan heater too noisy, but some are much quieter than others. As Michele advises, ensure that you've got the appropriate 230V hook-up adapters that will allow you to hook-up to the mains in whatever country (or countries) you will be visiting. Also make sure your hook-up cable is a long one.

 

For safety reasons it's clearly best if all gas bottles are housed within a motorhome's gas locker. I can't see any great objection to carrying an extra cylinder in a 'garage' as long as the bottle is very firmly secured, though you may need to consider the additional weight (close to 30kg for a full 13kg cylinder) that you will be placing behind the rear axle. Carrying gas bottles within the motorhome's living space is unwise (however well they are tethered), though I'm sure it's done. Ferry company regulations may limit the number of gas cylinders that can be carried and/or insist they be carried in a purpose-made storage compartment. Whether anyone checks is another matter!

 

Thankyou for that comprehensive answer Derek. We are well set up for touring the continent as regards 230v etc, it's just taht we have never been at this cold time of year. As regards the fan, well we have tried and brought all sorts but I just sleep to lightly and get woken by them all, this is why I would like to use the gas scenario. I am interested in what you say as regard the thermostat, and therefore perhaps ought to get the manual out and read through it. I have never bothered before as quite simply we cook on gas and have only used it as a means of heating on a couple of occassions.

 

Once again thankyou for your reply it contains nearly all the information that I am looking for. And to sum up two 13kg gas containers will keep us nice and warm for the 14 nights that we are away. (lol)

If not turn on the fan heater and do what I normaly do, have a night cap to sleep through. 8-)

 

sorry just one further thing, when you say my van would be fitted with a thermostat what exactly do you mean. I know that we can control the ammount of heat coming out but what I refer to is the issue of the heat being controlled by a thermostat, ie only coming on when the temp goes down and cutting off when the temp goes up.

[Derek Uzzell]

panagah:

 

Thermostat? I wondered if you would ask about that.

 

Historically, Truma blown-air heaters have had a 'room temperature' thermostat. This was imbedded in their control-panel which was positioned remotely from the heater. You turned the dial on the control-panel to the desired setting and the air temperature in the region where the control-panel was located caused the thermostat to control the heater's operation. On more recent Truma Combi heaters, the thermostat has been separated from the control-panel to allow each item to be installed in the optimum position. (Not that many motorhome manufacturers bother!)

 

Truma markets a couple of leisure-vehicle convector heaters. The S-3002 model is the most common and I'm assuming that's what you have got. The S-3002 has been around for years and can be upgraded with a 230V element and a blown-air fan unit.

 

Truma's product brochure and website says that the S-3002 has a thermostat. I presume (because it can't really be anywhere else) that this is integrated into the heater itself rather than being remote from it as on Truma blown-air appliances like Combi. I have no practical experience of the S-3002, so exactly where the thermostat is or what it does or how effective it is at doing it I can't say. As far as I'm aware, the design of the S-3002 has remained virtually unchanged, but, if it turns out that your 2003-vintage heater has no thermostat, then so be it.

 

If your heater has a thermostat then your Truma heater handbook should tell you about its operation - if not, then there must be plenty of forum members with hands-on knowledge of these heaters who should be able to comment.

[davenewellhome]

The thermostat on the S3002 model and others of its type is indeed inside the heater itself. The control is simply the main gas knob which is marked up 1 to 10 with each number indicating the increment between minimum temperature and maximum. On 1 the heater burner will cut out fairly soon after lighting while on 10 it will stay on almost indefinitely. I find a setting of about 5-6 gives a good comfortable room temperature of around 20-22 degrees C, even in sub zero outside temperatures. Owners of larger motorhomes than ours will possibly need the fire on a higher setting to achieve a comfortable room temperature.

 

D.

[panagah]

davenewell@home - 2007-11-18 8:36 AM

 

The thermostat on the S3002 model and others of its type is indeed inside the heater itself. The control is simply the main gas knob which is marked up 1 to 10 with each number indicating the increment between minimum temperature and maximum. On 1 the heater burner will cut out fairly soon after lighting while on 10 it will stay on almost indefinitely. I find a setting of about 5-6 gives a good comfortable room temperature of around 20-22 degrees C, even in sub zero outside temperatures. Owners of larger motorhomes than ours will possibly need the fire on a higher setting to achieve a comfortable room temperature.

 

D.

 

Thanks for that Dave. It is the heater we have. I will read the hand book. I suppose in my last vans I had a seperate control somehwhere in the van that i could control the temp.

Mine also has a switch for blown air heating and another setting.

 

Strange in two years of use and some 18000 miles covered I have never once worried about it. I have either used the portable electric heater or I have not needed it.

[Brian Kirby]

That being the case, I'd suggest you try it out on both convective and blown air modes before you leave!  I don't think it is a heater really designed for Alpine extremes, so you'll need to know it is working properly before you find hypothermia setting in! 

You may find it preferable to buy one 13Kg gas cylinder in France, where they are much cheaper than UK Calor.  Get one 13Kg Calor in UK before you go: as Derek says, if the Calor fits the French cylinder should easily fit.  If you have a fixed regulator in the gas locker you'll just need to get a tail (lyre [pronounced lire] in French) to attach the bottle to the regulator (don't forget your spanners!).  Best place to buy?  Rural supermarkets like Intermarche, and some of the surviving roadside filling stations.  Be a bit cautious, there are brands of gas in France that only distribute in small areas.  Go for one of the more widely distributed brands.  The French dealer we got our last van from reckoned Butagaz was about the widest distributed, and we haven't had any problems spotting it yet.  The propane is silver at the top and light blue at the bottom.

Then, if you go to Europe fairly regularly, you can easily swap an empty Butagaz there, and if the Calor runs out while away, you can swap that on return to UK.

Whatever you do, I wouldn't go into the mountains with less than 26Kg of gas on board.  I'd also carry a fan heater.  The weather can change very abruptly, and if snow really sets in you may have to stay put for quite a while until the site approaches are cleared and you can get out.  Make sure you arrive fully stocked, just in case!

[panagah]

Brian Kirby - 2007-11-18 4:22 PM

That being the case, I'd suggest you try it out on both convective and blown air modes before you leave!  I don't think it is a heater really designed for Alpine extremes, so you'll need to know it is working properly before you find hypothermia setting in! 

You may find it preferable to buy one 13Kg gas cylinder in France, where they are much cheaper than UK Calor.  Get one 13Kg Calor in UK before you go: as Derek says, if the Calor fits the French cylinder should easily fit.  If you have a fixed regulator in the gas locker you'll just need to get a tail (lyre [pronounced lire] in French) to attach the bottle to the regulator (don't forget your spanners!).  Best place to buy?  Rural supermarkets like Intermarche, and some of the surviving roadside filling stations.  Be a bit cautious, there are brands of gas in France that only distribute in small areas.  Go for one of the more widely distributed brands.  The French dealer we got our last van from reckoned Butagaz was about the widest distributed, and we haven't had any problems spotting it yet.  The propane is silver at the top and light blue at the bottom.

Then, if you go to Europe fairly regularly, you can easily swap an empty Butagaz there, and if the Calor runs out while away, you can swap that on return to UK.

Whatever you do, I wouldn't go into the mountains with less than 26Kg of gas on board.  I'd also carry a fan heater.  The weather can change very abruptly, and if snow really sets in you may have to stay put for quite a while until the site approaches are cleared and you can get out.  Make sure you arrive fully stocked, just in case!

Thanks for that Brian.We do tour europe regular. we are pretty set up for it really, I don't expect to have the gas alone keeping us warm. I have tested it and used it a few times. I recently used it in Kirby Lonsdale where the overnight temp fell well below 0 and it worked fine. I will mainly be relying on our super military style sleeping bags designed for keeping you warm when outside in sub zero temps outside. I know I can handle the cold but could do without whinging children and wife begging for us to drive off to southen Spain. I actually use something called Alto gas. It is stocked near me in Nantwich and extremely good value. The only problem is finding another supplier hence why we buy before travel. I have only purchased 2 bottles in two years and that is with approx 50-60 days away each year. That shows how often other than cooking we use the gas. If all else fails I still have the electric heater as said. But the information given has all been very usefull.Paul

[ike]

Very much off thread but you mentioned Kirby Lonsdale. Is there a site very close ie walkable to the town or somewhere to park up overnight or two?

[panagah]

ike - 2007-11-19 12:52 PM

 

Very much off thread but you mentioned Kirby Lonsdale. Is there a site very close ie walkable to the town or somewhere to park up overnight or two?

 

http://www.woodclosepark.com/caravan-park.htm

 

yes, very nice site with only a 5 min walk to town