Any Crusaders out there

[Guest Syd]

Mike Parke - 2007-11-30 11:51 PM

 

Perhaps, but we left them with a very good rail system, a fair judical system, a fine cricket team, a well trained and officered army and, for what it is worth, 'democracy'

Regards Mike

 

Hi Mike

Tounge in cheek eh

Maybe you are right but they did have their own systems in place before we pillaged their country.

 

I bet they would sooner have food on their tables, industry to work in and gold reserves than their run down railways, bent judicial system (wich it has got to be if it is modeled on ours) They cannot eat a cricket team can they.

 

[parkmoy]

Perhaps we should all send the Sudanese embassy teddy bears with the name tag 'Edward' on? After all it is a name borne by our royalty.

[malc d]

Mike Parke - 2007-12-01 1:06 AM

 

With our democracy we just get one despot after another!!!!

 

Regards Mike

 

 

 

Bit strong that Mike, isn't it ?

I wouldn't regard any of our 'leaders' in recent times to be acting like tyrants.

If they tried to I'm sure they would make a mess of it.

 

 

 

[BGD]

Vic - 2007-11-30 8:42 PM

 

Great point BGD. So going to another country, one should abide by cultures etc. I assume you would also include those who come to this country? Or are we exempt from applying those rules?

 

Vic - I agree with you.

 

Anyone chossing to come (go) to England should likewise obey the laws in England, or face the consequences that prevail in that country (arrest, charge, trial, punishment) according to the laws in that country.

If that is not happening at the moment in England (and I may have misunderstood your post, but I suspect that that is what you are implying) then it is up to those responsible for the laws, and for enforcing the laws, and those who elect or appoint those who do so, to take whatever action they feel is necessary to improve adherance.

 

In exactly the same way that if you go to Sudan (or India, or Iraq, or the USA or Japan, or Thailand etc etc etc) you can either obey their laws, or take the risk of being arrested, tried and punished under their legal system.

 

It is not for England to decide upon what the laws and religious customs in Sudan, or indeed any other country apart from England, should be.

 

 

[BGD]

michele - 2007-11-30 7:31 PM

 

I know lets nuke em :D

 

 

With respect Michele, most of your posts are really great, but speaking personally I thought this one was frankly just rather stupid and offensive.

 

 

I'm not getting at you, just at this one posting.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest Syd]

Please correct me if I am wrong, and I know that you will anyway, but I understood that there was an agreement between Sudan and ourselves, and no doubt others, that thier Muslim religious laws did not apply to our/their nationals.

If so then Sudan has broken that agreement have they not??

[Wingpete]

That is exactly why I chose to list OUR ancestory origins. J9.

I think Londoners were the original inhabitants of London. Most of them went elsewhere, to bring "distinguished culture" to the masses on the rest of the world. That is why it is still the centre of the universal world of commerce *-)

I just love being in USA on July 4th, wearing my UNION flag shirt, (not the proposed Welsh version ) and getting the reactions of the American Immigrants. They all get a brief lesson in their history which they know nothing about, about from what John Wayne taught them. B-)

But the seriousness of the recent Sudanese stupidity is what we are now expected to tolerate in the name of being PC or Non-Racist.

I am English first, British second, and say so on all documents requiring entries designating "country of origin".

Pandering to threats has been practised by dictators for many years and most fell on their own sword, metaphorically speaking.

The longest lasting nationalistic trait is displayed by those who, of their own volition, choose to communicate in English, as that THE most admired Nation in the world, and long may it continue to be so. (^)

[Tomo3090]

Many people here are viewing history from "our" perspective. All the countries of the empires of "civilised" nations were invaded and conquered with most if not all of the national treasures and valuables stolen and taken back to the "motherland". Their forms of government, social awareness and beliefs were removed and changed over night. In a lot of cases large numbers of their people were used as slaves or just killed because they were in the way of "progress".

 

We even had a war with the Chinese because they dared to try to stop the Opium trade by banning the planting of White Poppies and closing Opium dens!

 

The British were no worse than anyone else, we were just better at it and far more ruthless. Who was it that "invented" concentration camps, modern genocide and crushed rebellion with efficiency the Gestapo and KGB would later draw on for ideas. Why it was good old GB!

 

So before we start to declare a holy war on a country, let's take a closer look at our past.

 

Besides, apart from mathematics, writing, chemistry, trade and farming what has Islam done for us?!

 

p.s. Islam also held Jesus in higher esteem than the early Christian churches too, (and still does in some cases.)

[BGD]

Syd - 2007-12-01 4:54 PM

 

Please correct me if I am wrong, and I know that you will anyway, but I understood that there was an agreement between Sudan and ourselves, and no doubt others, that thier Muslim religious laws did not apply to our/their nationals.

If so then Sudan has broken that agreement have they not??

 

Hi Syd -

 

I'm not aware of any such agreement I'm afraid.

 

Additionally, the law in Sudan is the lawof the whole state, just as it is in England. Yes, it is based upon Sharia code, which is a set of religious principles, but it is the law of the State in Sudan, and thus applies to everyone in the country.

(In the same way as some modern English law is still based upon "Canon law", which in turn came from Roman Catholic and then later Protestant church edicts)

 

 

 

[donna miller]

The problem arising at the moment, is not the sentence she received, but the baying mobs of backward,inbred fanactics who mistakenly call themselves human, who are gathering in mobs on the streets and calling for her to be bought out and murdered.

These are the same pathetic creatures who sat looking into the cameras and begged us to send them aid, the figure announced by the bbc for 2007/2008 was somewhere in the region of £117 million or was it billion.

 

This government hasn't got the dedication for it's citizens anymore.

[BGD]

Wingpete - 2007-12-01 4:56 PM

 

That is exactly why I chose to list OUR ancestory origins. J9.

I think Londoners were the original inhabitants of London. Most of them went elsewhere, to bring "distinguished culture" to the masses on the rest of the world. That is why it is still the centre of the universal world of commerce *-)

I just love being in USA on July 4th, wearing my UNION flag shirt, (not the proposed Welsh version ) and getting the reactions of the American Immigrants. They all get a brief lesson in their history which they know nothing about, about from what John Wayne taught them. B-)

But the seriousness of the recent Sudanese stupidity is what we are now expected to tolerate in the name of being PC or Non-Racist.

I am English first, British second, and say so on all documents requiring entries designating "country of origin".

Pandering to threats has been practised by dictators for many years and most fell on their own sword, metaphorically speaking.

The longest lasting nationalistic trait is displayed by those who, of their own volition, choose to communicate in English, as that THE most admired Nation in the world, and long may it continue to be so. (^)

 

Hi Peter -

 

I must preface my comments by saying that you are of course entitled to your opinions just as much as other are to theirs.

 

I would though, like to make a few comments on your post:

 

I don't think the original inhabitants of London were Londoners.

I think the original inhabitants were iron-age Britons, a tribe of hunter-gatherers, until the Romans invaded and it was the Romans (ie Italians) who established Londinium as a permanent settlement which under thier control later grew to become a city and port.

The systems of trade, of science, of culture, of parliament (known then a plenaries) of the rule of law, of the Christian religion, that we nowadays think of as "British" inventions all in fact came via the Roman occupation and subsequent "civilisation" of the previously tribal island.

 

Perhaps wearing the English flag rather than the flag of the Union might be more appropriate, if you consider yourself English?

As I'm sure you know, the Union Flag represents the United Kingdom, not Britain.

 

I'm intrigued: why is the action of the Sudanese authorities stupid?

An immigrant broke their law. She was arrested, tried, found guilty on one of the two charges, and was given a sentence at the very lightest end of the possible sentences for the breach of Sudanese law that she committed.

I think you are right. You have to tolerate the rights of other countries to have and to enforce their own laws if you are not to be accused of racism.

 

I'm uncertain as to whether, if you were to ask the citizens of most other countries around the world nowadays, they would mention England as the most admired nation.

I don't think the wholesale invading, and subsequent raping and pillaging of the people and raw material resources of dozens of those countries helped our polularity (although it made England rich of course), neither did our brand of gunboat diplomacy (in the same style that the USA has been recently adopting and which has now made it villified around most of the rest of the world).

And neither did our totally illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq.

Nor the recent sleaze and continued lying and dishonesty of British politicians.

Nor the continued insistance of the British to those few people elsewhere in the World who still bother occasionally to even listen to them, that the tiny island of Britain is better than their country, and that British citizens are somehow superior to other human beings. QED your own post.

 

Like you, through a similar accident of birth I'm English too. I have a lot of affection for some elements of that country.

 

But the more I have matured, and read and expereinced, and the more I travel and see of the rest of the world, the more I see the true bigger picture, beyond the little-island jingoistic cultural blinkers that I grew up with.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mel B]

What do you think would've happened if the teacher was a Muslim, working in a British school and allowed the children to call the teddybear 'God'.

 

I'm sure there'd have been an outcry here, maybe not to such an extent and to the level it was there, but would we really be that 'understanding'? :-S

[donna miller]

Thing is Mel, our country would be sh#t scared to even reprimand a muslim teacher, for fear of the race issues, because in the minds of the do-gooders (aka trouble makers) you would only be making an issue of it because they were muslim, not because they might have broken a law.

[Guest Syd]

Have you seen the length of these posts and the complicated detail they contain.

 

Such a serious attitude to life is displayed here that anyone would be forgiven if they had thought something serious had happened somewhere.

such a writing a name on a teddy bear or something !!

 

Anyway Im sure that some sort of agreement, as I mentioned, was entered into and fairly recently too.

Could it have been to protect any NATO troops??

[BGD]

donna miller - 2007-12-01 5:55 PM

 

The problem arising at the moment, is not the sentence she received, but the baying mobs of backward,inbred fanactics who mistakenly call themselves human, who are gathering in mobs on the streets and calling for her to be bought out and murdered.

These are the same pathetic creatures who sat looking into the cameras and begged us to send them aid, the figure announced by the bbc for 2007/2008 was somewhere in the region of £117 million or was it billion.

 

This government hasn't got the dedication for it's citizens anymore.

 

With respect Dona - the people gathered on the street in the mob were NOT the same pathetic creatures who begged for us to send them aid.

That is the problem with sweeping generalisation - of making a judgement about tens of millions of people in country based upon the actions on one day of a single group.

 

The individuals in the mob appeared (at least to me) to be predoiminantly well fed, fit, young men, who werre as I recall protesting in the Capital city Khartoum.

They are not the people who are dying of starvation, of disease, or who are watching their children slowly die of starvation or disease in the outlying regions of that country.

I wonder - how does it make you more human than them, for suggesting in your post that help to prevent those other human beings, men women, children, babies, actually starving to death, from the comparitively incredibly wealthy country Britain, should be stopped?

 

 

 

[BGD]

donna miller - 2007-12-01 6:13 PM

 

Thing is Mel, our country would be sh#t scared to even reprimand a muslim teacher, for fear of the race issues, because in the minds of the do-gooders (aka trouble makers) you would only be making an issue of it because they were muslim, not because they might have broken a law.

 

Facts, or sources please for this allegation?

 

 

[Guest peter]

Can't think of anything highbrow enough to post so won't bother.

[Guest Syd]

peter - 2007-12-01 6:22 PM

 

Can't think of anything highbrow enough to post so won't bother.

 

Im well out of my depth too, but I agree ha ha

[Guest Tracker]

Syd - 2007-12-01 6:37 PM

 

peter - 2007-12-01 6:22 PM

 

Can't think of anything highbrow enough to post so won't bother.

 

Im well out of my depth too, but I agree ha ha

 

Me too!

 

Any more?

[KD]

try never to get too involved in political arguments for fear of becoming unstuck but i am outraged for the poor woman

[Guest Le Thou]

It would seem that the root of most wars, killings, assasinations the list is endless is all done in the name of religion, in which case you can keep it.

And something I heard on the news the other night about the Sudanese people is that Muslims are generally peace loving people, was this before or after 9/11 and all the other atrocities in the name of religion.

 

Nothing more than a collection of hypocrytes

[J9withdogs]

I agree K (or is it D?).

 

'When in Rome etc applies unless you are in Britain' seems to be they way of the world nowadays.

[Guest Tracker]

I personally dread the day when we in this country lose our tolerance of foreign 'guests' - but, that said, maybe it is time to be seen as kind and tolerant but not soft?

 

Legal and invited immigrants should always be made welcome and encouraged to retain their own culture but it should be made clear that this will be in addition to and not in place of being part of their 'adoptive' British culture.

[donna miller]

BGD - 2007-12-01 6:22 PM

 

donna miller - 2007-12-01 6:13 PM

 

Thing is Mel, our country would be sh#t scared to even reprimand a muslim teacher, for fear of the race issues, because in the minds of the do-gooders (aka trouble makers) you would only be making an issue of it because they were muslim, not because they might have broken a law.

 

Facts, or sources please for this allegation?

 

 

You have obviously been away from this country for far too long, and are out of touch with the realities of life in real britain. Never mind Bob and Vera in their nice semi in suburbia, take a look in the inner cities where the real problems exist.

The leader of the BNP was secretly filmed by a newspaper and immediately prosecuted for inciting racial crimes, these alleged offences took place in a private meeting, And yet a hook handed terrorist supporter is allowed to spout racial hatred in public for months on end, and something is only done about it when another country calls for his extradition.

Muslim fanatics protest in london ( over cartoons published in another country) holding up banners calling for the murder and beheading of westerners, how many are arrested. NONE. on the same day, (mainly)white British anti violence protesters were arrested and moved away from the muslim marches.

White christian 15 year old schoolboy suspended for wearing a hoodie to school, same school has muslim girls allowed to wear burka. And no it isn't a religious requirement, it's a personal choice.

Do I need to continue.

 

As for your other comments, the animals ( and that's all they are) baying for her murder were outside the original station she was held in, she was moved for her own safety.

 

Why do people continually bring up what Britain was like 100s of years ago everytime we make a comment about the barbaric customs being practiced by these muslim countries. We evolved out off it, they haven't.

 

And lastly, the Sudanese government apply for aid, if they can't control the people that live there, and protect the ones who go out there to assist, help and educate their citizens, then they deserve nothing.

 

I dont do politics, but I do have the right to voice an opinion.

[Wingpete]

I find many of the comments raised here, regarding my thoughts are as I would have imagined and expected.

Here we are, suffering as never before, the intolerances and biases of illogical perceptions of political correctness, by arguing the merit amongst these people who are supposed to be British.

Stand up and be counted.

I do not need a lesson in my history, recent or otherwise. Nor do I need lessons in other countries perception of Englishness.

For the record, as they ! say, I have travelled extensively, as an ambassador, to such places as Israel, Holland, Lichtenstein, Iceland, Singapore, New Zealand, Spain, France, Belgium, Denmark, Andora, Monaco, Germany, Ireland, Canada, Haiwai, Kenya, Italy, Malta, Switzerland, Austria, Luxembourg, and just 48 Staes of USA.

Hong Kong & Oz next for Christmas.

And everywhere, my Englishness has been favourably commented upon, and admiration for the legacy of Great Britain praised, still.

I am not seeking a debate on the wisdom of being English, nor to be confrontational with fellow Brits, but you need to get out and talk to our admirers, to find there is more truth from the mouths of innocents than there is from bigots and apologists from within our own borders.

Terrorists will succede by subverting your patriotism and make you feel sorry for being good at what we did. Bringing improvements to cultures that want to live in a violent and paternal, tribal hierarchy past.