Mel B Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 Just another thought ... a naughty one! >:-) If you wanted to be cruel, you could of course visit a dealer or two and 'pretend' that you are interesting in purchasing a vehicle on a Fiat or Peugeot base, really string them along, taking loads of time and getting them really excited at the thought of a sale, wait until they are just about eating form your hand and drooling at the thought of all that lovely commission they'll earn, then walk away for a little while to 'think' about it. After 10 mintues or so, go back to them and watching their expression very closely, ask them about the 'juddergate' problem you've just remembered being told about ... see if they suddenly go pale and worried looking. If so, then they know about it ... you can then 'tease' them as much as you like from then on ... asking them to guarantee in writing that the new van you are just about to sign up for will definitely be okay ... they won't be able to of course so unfortunately you can't do the deal, well you wouldn't would you (unless you need your bumps felt!). If they get this happening enough times and spend loads of time with customers who don't go ahead with the purchase because of it, they might just start to do something about it themselves. Of course, this is all just hypothetical as I'm sure no one would be that cruel to a nice friendly sales chap/chapess! 8-) ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michele Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 And of course there is always the poor unsuspecting public whom don't know their fate as yet . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diydoolittle Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 Tracker - 2008-03-11 5:42 PM Have any of you victims (other than Andy) had any joy with any action against the converters for supplying a vehicle 'unfit for purpose' - or are you contractually stuck with the dealer as the point of complaint and/or redress? No and yes!!! No to converter and yes to stuck with dealer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 AndyStothert - 2008-03-11 5:26 PM MMM are putting a letter in next month's mag, and the Caravan Club should be doing the same. The Editor of Which Motorcaravan has declined to do so. I have asked Warners for some more positive support, such as putting a general 'summimg up' of what's happened to everybody as a 'sticky' on the forum, and perhaps writing a factual piece in one of the magazines about the issues involved for readers and consumers, but they have so far declined to assist. It's always good to know who your friends are - and are not - and it speaks volumes about just how consumer orientated the leisure press really is. Do these editors remember what a 'consumer' is I wonder? You remember the 'consumer', surely? As in the people the magazine is supposed to be informing, entertaining and educating? Lest they forget - we are the poor sods that buy their magazines and thus pay their wages and they must see the likes of Andy and all the others as an inconsiderate selfish bunch if we expect them to take arms against the likes of Fiat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huckleberry Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 Would it not be possible for all testers to carry out an uphill reverse on their road test vehicles and report on it as part of the test? In recent reports I have only noticed one report that mentioned reversing and that was on a Fifer van conversion - and it performed well. I can't remember which magazine it was. It would of course be difficult for the editor of Which Motorcaravan to offer his support in view of the fact that his magazine gave the 2008 base vehicle to the Fiat. It makes a nonsense of his editorial statement (March 2008) of loyalty to the readers, aiming to provide the best possible buying advice and not being afraid of criticising winning vans. His closing statement concerning keeping in touch with change should have mentioned this website if he wanted accuarcy - but it didn't. Huckleberry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenewellhome Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 Those of you who are criticising the mags for not publishing details of this defect ought to bear in mind that what you read in this month's mag will have been written approximately two months ago. Last month I included a piece in my monthly column of a "fellow" magazine, it will appear in the May issue! These things take time. As was the case with the water ingress issue it all takes time! D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webbocj Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 Dave Of coarse your right (creep), but my m/h-Knaus Van Ti, on Fiat !! was a "long term tester" probably with Practiclemotorhomes, as in their Nov.07 mag. the Executive Editor Dan Wright took it for a trip to the French aires without aword about it's tech. merits at all, so what did that prove for an intended purchaser. In the same edition another member of staff spent time in Kent and Essex before driving over to the show in Dusseldorf. Now the interesting point here was that he had a "sudden cutout" on the French autoroute and he asked readers to drop him a line if they had a similar experience. Thats a turn up. It had done 3000mls and only one tech. problem? what were they testing it for-the food/sun/aires nice freebies if you can get one. Must go other letters to write!!!!! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webbocj Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 Good morning After a sleep(not helped by the wind & "gearbox") I realised I was naive. There must be a contract restricting adverse reporting to the public witout the permisson of the base/converter/dealer, who ever loaned it. So the results are really cosmetic, could be wrong! When if ever was there such a bombshell? Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo3090 Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 I would think the problem for a mass demo is that not every van is doing the juddering thing. I have a 2007 Compass Avantgarde on a Peugot boxer and have had 8600 miles of trouble free motoring. No reversing judder, no cutting out, nothing. I have checked under the bonnet and there is a bit of evidence of water getting in there, but so what? The thing still runs ok and it's the engine! It is the hardest working bit in the van it gets a bit sweaty now and then! My problem is that I am getting a new van in May, a FIAT! I am now praying that the same good fairy that sent me a "working Peugot" sends me a "working FIAT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossko Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 Given that our fiat dealer technician has now told us 3 times that there is nothing wrong with our gear box & fiats stance now is that if the technician says it is ok thats it as far as fiat are concerned - can anyone advise us where we should go to get a highly qualified engineers report from someone whose qualifications would stand up in court. Would RAc/AA be any good or should we have someone more technical & if so where would we find one? Thanks to everone out ther who are offering support even though not directly involved. Lots of letter writing to do tonight!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 You need a forensic engineer, qualified in the field of automotive engineering, Society of expert witnesses may be able to help. Owners and potentially effected owners who are interested could club together a few £ and get an "opinion" and try to get it published in motoring/motorhome media. Or club together again with an action against one dealer or manufacturer which would set a “precedent” for others (if it went against supplier). I don’t think the manufacturer could ignore you then. And at least you should categorically know if there is an identifiable mechanical fault or not...... Boy, I’m glad I bought a Ford. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted March 12, 2008 Author Share Posted March 12, 2008 I was going to relate yet another tale of misery, frustration, and dishonesty from Fiat today but after ongoing discussions with the Editors of MMM, after looking at all the facts, they have decided to commission an in-depth and factual feature about the Juddering Defect, and Fiat's treatment of its customers as a result this design cock-up. There is also a main channel TV consumer programme interested, so it looks at long last that the issue will be getting a much wider airing. This will help potential buyers have all the information about this base vehicle before making any buying decision, and offer current owners a glimpse of a solution with pressure of this kind being put on Fiat. But until the fat lady sings.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zulurita Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 Looks like MMM are going in the right direction. March issue with Mike Jago's report was also good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred grant Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 mmms bin goin up for 40 odd years me ansums, so whats changed?? the price of peanuts i suppose my biddies. needleanfred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 AndyStothert - 2008-03-12 5:27 PM But until the fat lady sings.......... Andy, if it will help, I'll be the fat lady! Doo-di-doo, tiddly-pom, sing a song ... tiddly-pom! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted March 12, 2008 Author Share Posted March 12, 2008 I actually missed a trick there - it should have read 'When the Fiat Lady Sings'. CAN ANYBODY WHO OWNS A FIAT OR PEUGEOT X250 BASED MOTORHOME TAKE IT TO THE NEAREST STEEP HILL (about 1 in 5) AND TRY REVERSING IT UP THE HILL. YOU WILL BE HORRIFIED (especially if you have the 6 speed gearbox), but when you've calmed down email me and I'll send information to help you protect your investment and hopefully get this endemic defect resolved. andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 Well thats something I guess. Andy, how may cases of known juddering in reverse are in contact with you? and how many actual gearbox failures do you know of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 I reckon when the views get to 10,000 it deserves a sticky! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 If the moderators can make their own electricity debate thread a sticky because it suits their need for info for a magazine article it speaks volumes about their disinterest in an issue that is just as important to us all and a darned sight more important to the victims of Sevel reversing disease. Maybe we should all boycott any future threads that the moderators make sticky for their own ends and then maybe someone else will come to a sticky end! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob b Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 Careful Rich !.......aren't you on "probation" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 bob b - 2008-03-13 4:11 PM Careful Rich !.......aren't you on "probation" ? Warners are quite free to post their own reply and reasons if they wish Bob! In fact we would all be delighted to read that wee story I think! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted March 13, 2008 Author Share Posted March 13, 2008 As a response to JudgeMental's question of how many owners and how many gearboxes - from this one small sample of ownership relating to a fault which only arises when you take it somewhere fairly extreme we have 30 owners and out of them two gearbox failures. We have three clutch failures (different vans from the gearboxes) and all except me have now traded them in for something without Fiat or Peugot writ on the front. If only we could get everybody to risk ruining their pride and joy by finding nice narrow twisty 1 in 5 hill and reversing it up. But they won't, not until they have to, and then the warranty may very well have expired when it all goes bang......... Do it now, reverse your X250 (2007 onwards) Fiat Ducato up a steep hill. See how it judders John. Tell him Janet. Then get off y'r backsides and complain to Fiat when you realise the legacy you're leaving the next generation of second hand buyers. If anyone else wishes to take over this 'campaign' (somebody more resilient or organised) or if you're just fed up of that juddering Fiat and want to se a resolution to thsi just email me - andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 That settles it - thanks for that info Andy - there is no way on this Earth that I will ever buy a used van with an X250 base vehicle as many of them will only be used because someone else has got brassed off with the problems and I don't want someone else's semi duff gearbox thanks! Shame, because we will be in the market for a larger van by the end of this year or early next, and it now looks like it might either be a long search or a long wait! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 Sorry double posting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 Clive - 2008-03-12 10:32 PM I reckon when the views get to 10,000 it deserves a sticky! The problem is, which one would they make into a sticky????? There are at least 3 threads on here all on the same subject, maybe if only one was kept going then then might make it into a sticky!!! I suggest therefore that only THIS thread is posted on from now on, that way we can keep everything together and live in hope of a sticky!!!!! 8-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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