zulurita Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 Tried my Fiat .23L 130 multijet as I was leaving Minehead site on Monday. It has a steep hill. so stopped and put mh into reerse gear and started to reverse and I could feel the judder so stopped as I didn't want any damage. Also from Williton had to stop on a hill due to road works and found that starting off in 1st gear uphill is not good either!!! Have contacted Fiat today to report and obtain my case number and also contacted Vosa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred grant Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 steep hill in minehead my luvver, you must come from linconshire? flatulentfred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwaviation Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 I dream of having just a reversing judder... I split a fuel line on the A14 today, lost power and died on the non hard shoulder 8-) Judging by the amount of smoke I suspect I might have a problem with a piston or two as a result :'( Currently sat outside the Peugeot dealers. Let's hope the warranty is worth the paper its written on.... May 07 plate - 6000 miles :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zulurita Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 No Devon Fred. There is a steep drive from Minehead CC site reception up to the pitches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted February 28, 2008 Author Share Posted February 28, 2008 Just in case you were wondering if all the juddering Fiats were motorhomes Tonight's Tale of Woe from the abominal list of owners whose complaints are being ignored by Fiat concerns a van. Admittedly not white, but Brian Reid is a self employed joiner who bought a LWB 2.3 litre 6 speed Ducato in November last year. He immediately notice the vilolent juddering in reverse gear when attempting to reverse up a hill. To make matters worse Brian tows a trailer and he recksons that it impossible to reverse the trailer anywhere, level or uphill, as the juddering is that bad. Fiat have told him that the juddering is a characteristic of the vehicle, shrugged their shoulders and told him to go away. The problem with the trailer is not their concern, apparently. Brian is absolutely sure that the juddering will lead to premature failure of other components such as the gearbox or clutch. He placed a thread on the 'fiatforum' web site relating his experiencies and questioned the wisdom of anyone buying a Fiat Ducato until this (very undesirable) 'charcteristic' was rectified. Fiat haven't actually been silly enough yet to tell me that my broken gearbox was just a characteristic of the vehicle, nor the smoking clutch when a steep hill is tackled, but I'm expecting it anyday now. But surely in telling customers that this major component destroying juddering is a 'characteristic' they are admitting they are all doing it? IF YOU HAVE A FIAT/PEUGEOT X250 MODEL BASED MOTORHOME (2007 onwards) FIND A STEEP (1:5 or steeper) HILL AND REVERSE IT UP THE HILL. IF IT JUDDERS IT IS IN YOUR OWN BEST INTEREST TO COMPLAIN TO FIAT. DO NOT BE FOBBED OFF. If you want further information, or wish to help get this matter resolved email me - andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 zulurita - 2008-02-28 4:00 PM No Devon Fred. There is a steep drive from Minehead CC site reception up to the pitches. Yes, it is a steep site - very steep in places - and so are some of the pitches - so take some very large ramps if you go there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted February 29, 2008 Author Share Posted February 29, 2008 Tonight's unlucky victim of the Fiat Ducato fiasco is Mike Hoodless. He bought his Ducato 2.3 litre 6 speed Auto Trail Tracker from Elite Motorhomes in Banbury, and on getting it home and reversing it up the drive, which is fairly steep, the 'van juddered like mad. He went to his local Fiat dealer, Stormont in Dunstable, who agreed that indeed something was definitely not right with the juddering clutch or gearbox, and booked it in to investigate. However when they rang Fiat to get authorisation for the work Fiat said they's send one of their technicains down to the garage to exmamine the van. Of course the Fiat technician agreed that it was juddering, but said they are all like that - ITS A CHARACTERISTIC OF THE VEHICLE. One which eats clutches and gearboxes, but hey, what the hell, what's the odd clutch or gearbox? DONT BE FOBBED OFF. IF IT JUDDERING INSIST ON IT BEING SORTED OUT. FIND A HILL - REVERSE IT UP - IT IT JUDDERS COMPLAIN TO FIAT. I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyH Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 Thought I'd try ro get them all to the top at once Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred grant Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 Tracker - 2008-02-28 8:39 PM zulurita - 2008-02-28 4:00 PM No Devon Fred. There is a steep drive from Minehead CC site reception up to the pitches. Yes, it is a steep site - very steep in places - and so are some of the pitches - so take some very large ramps if you go there! SO whos cider were you on when you stayed at minehead tracker my luvver. for zummerset, or even deben, the pitches cood be best described as fairly level. in fact, me old biddy, some pitchers are so level they cood be best described at horizontal. unlike fred after a session at the local kings arms. farragofred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred grant Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 Tracker - 2008-02-28 8:39 PM zulurita - 2008-02-28 4:00 PM No Devon Fred. There is a steep drive from Minehead CC site reception up to the pitches. Yes, it is a steep site - very steep in places - and so are some of the pitches - so take some very large ramps if you go there! SO whos cider were you on when you stayed at minehead tracker my luvver. for zummerset, or even deben, the pitches cood be best described as fairly level. in fact, me old biddy, some pitchers are so level they cood be best described at horizontal. unlike fred after a session at the local kings arms. farragofred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted March 1, 2008 Author Share Posted March 1, 2008 Does anyone out there have a decent enough understanding of the internet AND the French or Italian languages to find out if there are simlar concerns about the Fiats and Peugeots being aired in Europe? German as well come to think of it. It may help in the end, or it may not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zulurita Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 The French motorhome magazines: Camping Car Magazine etc have had articles relating to water ingress etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 AndyStothert - 2008-03-01 10:54 AM Does anyone out there have a decent enough understanding of the internet AND the French or Italian languages to find out if there are simlar concerns about the Fiats and Peugeots being aired in Europe? German as well come to think of it. It may help in the end, or it may not? Perhaps someone at Warners may have 'connections' with journalists in other countries who may be able to help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 The reversing judder has been mentioned once in a letter last year to Le Monde du Camping-Car. A quick search got me five other mentions on French motorhome forums. Many of the French live in Flats, and put their motorhomes into storage over winter, so winter use is not so common as may be assumed. This is still quite a new model, and many will only have ordered their new vehicles after last years major RV shows. These vehicles will only now be being delivered, so I don't expect the rumpus to really start until well into the summer. All those who referred to the problem said it arose when reversing on steep hills. By and large, this is not that common an activity, and it will take a while before folk become aware there is a problem. One owner, in particular, was so impressed with his new toy he seemed to be prepared to forgive its inability to back up hills.However, on that evidence, it I'm sure it will be around on the German and Italian forums as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted March 1, 2008 Author Share Posted March 1, 2008 This is becoming a kind of diary of despair, and tonight's unconnected, but vaguely associated thoughts turn to the second-hand market for these vehicles. I've had four emails from ex-owners who bought the new Fiat, fairly soon became aware of juddering in reverse problem and because they use the vehicles in hilly places, complained to Fiat about the juddering. They were met with Fiat's then standard fob-off telling them, tough, they are within 'Fiat's designated operating parameters' and that was that. So, being of bigger financial girth than most of us (or predicting the aggro involved in trying to get it sorted out) they went back to the motorhome dealer and part exchanged them for a combination of Mercedes and Renault motorhomes. Spending many more thousands of pounds. Which made me wonder......... Fiat are now admitting they are all juddering as they have changed their fob-off line to 'It's a characteristic of the vehicle (so sod off we've got your money and that's all we wanted anyway), it's just like all the others, so how can it be a defect?' But what happens in two or three years time? Do you want to buy a second-hand motorhome for perhaps £30,000 which has probably got a gearbox on its last legs? Or a clutch about to throw its hand in? Will your three year old Fiat (not rectified) be worth anything when Fiat have been compelled to make the necessary changes and only modified the ones owned by those who have shouted loudest? Will we able to tell which ones have been sorted out? Buying a second-hand Fiat will be the same lottery as buying a new one. All this and I could have bought a Renault for two grand less, and had no stress? Tomorrow the matter of our warranties, and their apparent worth. IF YOU HAVE A 2007/2008 X250 FIAT/PEUGEOT MOTORHOME IT HAS WHAT FIAT CALL A 'CHARACTERISTIC' JUDDERING WHICH PUTS THE CLUTCH AND GEARBOX AT RISK OF PREMATURE FAILURE. REVERSE IT UP A STEEP HILL (about 1:5) AND DECIDE FOR YOURSELF IF THIS IS A CHARACTERISTIC BASED IN SOUND ENGINEERING PRINCIPALS. IF NOT COMPLAIN TO FIAT AND INSIST ON IT BEING FIXED. DO NOT ACCEPT FIAT'S NOW CHARACTERISTIC FOB-OFF, NO MATTER HOW POLITELY IT IS OFFERED. After that let me know - andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 News is spreading far and wide across many forums Andy. Its new name is "juddergate" Fiat must be starting to feel the heat by now with converters looking more favourably at Merc and Renault bases for new models. Also ordinary white van man has said he is brassed of with reliability problems with Fiat Ducato as well. Keep up the good work. Loss of the ambulance business will be next I guess. C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted March 2, 2008 Share Posted March 2, 2008 AndyStothert - 2008-03-01 10:54 AM Does anyone out there have a decent enough understanding of the internet AND the French or Italian languages to find out if there are simlar concerns about the Fiats and Peugeots being aired in Europe? German as well come to think of it. It may help in the end, or it may not? Andy, try PMing Randonner as she lives in France, she may be able to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyH Posted March 2, 2008 Share Posted March 2, 2008 Moved to the top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted March 2, 2008 Author Share Posted March 2, 2008 Thanks, I shall try the Randonner when I work out how to work it out.... Today's Depressing Ducato moment concerns warranties. All those who bought their Fiat from a domestic source have, in theory got 3 years warranty, whilst those who purchased imported vehicles have only two years. So it would appear that the clock is ticking a little more urgently (for finding a cure) for the owners of the imports than we who bought here. In some respects this is true - if you find yourself with no choice but to reverse up a steep hill within three years and the gearbox drops to bits (as happened to ours at two months old) then it should get replaced under warranty. After two years the owners of the imports may have expensive repair bills to face. But what if the clutch goes? And this is quite likely. Well here we are all on sticky ground, no matter when it happens, because the clutch is an item which is subject to manufacturers telling you it is 'fair wear and tear' or in other words, it wore out because of your driving technique. More tellingly I don't think it's covered in the 3rd year anyway on a van bought in this country. So, in view of Fiat's unsympathetic approach to customers over the juddering, and indeed originally telling us all our driving technique was at fault - and not the vehicle - how do you think they will treat a claim for a ruined clutch because you have had to rev it so hard to make it move backwards up hills? Is the Fiat warranty worth anything? We all bought new vehicles for the security of knowing we would have stress free motoring for a period of time, but what have we got from Fiat? Nothing but aggro and dishonesty. IF YOU'VE ALREADY BOUGHT ONE OF THESE VEHICLES GO AND REVERSE IT UP A STEEP HILL AND EXPERIENCE THE JUDDER. FIAT NOW ADMIT THAT IT OCCURS (AFTER REFUTING IT ORIGINALLY) ON ALL OF THEM BUT SAY IT IS A CHARACTERISTIC OF THE VEHICLE. IF YOU AREN'T HAPPY WITH FIAT'S EXPLANATION E-MAIL ME - andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk On the other hand if you haven't bought one, and are considering it well.................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abb Posted March 2, 2008 Share Posted March 2, 2008 Hello Andy, My mother tongue is French and I'll be glad to be of help if you wish me to translate a letter to French for you to send to Camping Car and Le Monde du Camping Car magazines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted March 2, 2008 Share Posted March 2, 2008 Come on Andy, Go for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted March 3, 2008 Author Share Posted March 3, 2008 Allo Allo, I shall formulate a plan. A cunning plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyH Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 Hi Andy I spotted these two websites mentioned in an answer to a reader's query in the Honest John column in the motoring section of the Saturday Telegraph. They may be worth contacting if it comes to some legal issue. http://www.lawanswers.co.uk/ http://www.roadsidelawyer.co.uk/ In fact Honest John himself may be interested since it is such a major issue so may also be worth a try www.honestjohn.co.uk Keep going, nothing wins like persistance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyishuk Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 You could always invite BBC Watchdog in for a cuppa tea in the M/home. BBC Watchdog enjoys a good hand tohand with motor manufacturers (Volvo and the Clio problems where picked up by them.) http://www.bbc.co.uk/consumer/tv_and_radio/watchdog/reports/transport/transport_20080116.shtml Et al ( seems that Vauhall have the old park it here , find it there, problem now. ) Rgds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaun Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 I can't help feeling that if Fiat now acknowledge this 'characteristic', they won't be able to ignore a mountain of claims for clutches and gearboxes, as and when they fail. Surely, there's a precedent been set elsewhere in the past, which will serve as to a guide to what happens where a vehicle manufacturer suggests a perceived problem is merely a characteristic, but which then transpires to be a widespread fault? Shaun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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