Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems

[AndyStothert]

Madmick,

Thanks for all that.

Are you sufficiently technically profficient to offer an opnion as to whether these figures are high or low against others?

 

Cheers

All 2007/08 FIAT DUCATO OWNERS - please take it somewhere steep and reverse it up the hill.

If it judders contact me - andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk

[AndyStothert]

Mike,

The ratios for the 130 and 120 should be the same- I think?

[Clive]

Andy,

http://www.fiatcv.com.au/cms/default.asp?action=article&ID=21776

Is a usefull site with all the gearbox ratio,s shown for every gear.

Reverse seems to be a constant but other gears change with engine size.

 

C.

 

[Clive]

Hear are a couple of gear ratio examples :-

 

 

[AndyStothert]

Nick,

I've received several different versions of the ratios from different sources, but one thing which is now apparent from the replies I've had is that there are a vast number of juddering Fiats out there, especiially if you consider the tiny percentage of owners who look at this forum.

I will forward the chassis number to you.

What is causingthe problem is, in the great scheme of things irrelevant, because Fiat have had this complaint from so many ownesr for so long that they will know exactly what it is. My fears are (and hence all this trubble at 't mill) that if it had been something simple they would have sorted it out.

And still they are acting all surprised and telling owners they know nothing about it hwn I have a letter from Fiat to me sating they are well aware of it and are seeking a techical solution.

[Derek Uzzell]

The most complete source of X250 Ducato technical information I've come across on the internet can be found on the following link:

 

http://www.waltonsummit.co.uk/fiat/brochures/New_Ducato_Goods_Technical.pdf

 

Incidentally, I note that, on the other 'juddering' forum posting

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=10481&posts=29

 

it's been suggested that a reason why vehicles with the 2.2-litre/5-speed gearbox seem to judder less when reversed compared with the larger capacity motors with 6-speed gearboxes may be because the 2.2-litre transmission has a lower final-drive ratio. In fact, the 2.2-litre power-train's 'overall' reverse-gear ratio (reverse-gear ratio x final-drive ratio) - which is the ratio that matters - is some 10% higher than that of the larger-engined vehicles (assuming the latter's chassis are non-Maxi).

 

If 2.2-litre Ducatos do indeed judder less in reverse than their bigger-engined siblings, it's more likely because the basic design of their (Ford-derived) motors differs significantly from that of the 2.3-litre and 3.0-litre (Iveco-derived) power-plants. Mk 7 Transits with look-alike 2.2-litre motors apparently don't demonstrate the juddering symptoms, so it's not unreasonable to assume that, if a 2.2 Ducato is less juddery, it's the motor 'package' that's at least part of the cause.

[colinfrier]

I have started a thread on www.fiatforum.com regarding reversing judder if you have a problem add your comments it may help I think Fiat monitor the forum

Colin

[Brian Kirby]

Somehow, I don't think this problem is going to be primarily due to gear ratios, either individual ratios or overall ratio.  A high first/reverse gear will cause problems in driving away on a hill, but those problems will usually be a tendency to stall, resulting in a need for higher revs, and hence a longer period before the clutch can be fully engaged.  Clutches will wear quicker in the process, but these factors alone should not cause judder.

Conventional causes of clutch judder are:

1 heavy clutch wear,

2 a contaminated clutch plate (usually from oil),

3 rust due to lack of use,

4 rust due to water entry,

5 broken clutch springs, or

6 a loose or damaged clutch lining.

These are new vehicles, so I guess lining and/or friction surfaces not fully bedded in might be added.  However, because they are new vehicles, I think 1 above can be discounted.  The other causes shouldn't arise on a new vehicle, but it must be accepted that any of them might.  2 should be easily checkable, since an oil leak sufficient to contaminate a new clutch on a new vehicle should be visible as leakage from below the clutch housing.  3 really should not be the case, unless the new van is one of those that was a victim of recent floods.  Any rust haze due to standing prior to delivery should burnish off quite quickly.  For this to be our problem it would be common to virtually all vehicles.  4 could possibly be part of the problem, but I don't know where the water people report entering the engine bay runs to after it overflows the cylinder head.  If it runs into the clutch housing while the van is standing, I'd guess the steel components could get into quite a mess in wet weather.  5 and 6 are, I think, too rare as faults to be appearing with the reported frequency, so should be discounted.

Juddering, is when the engine/gearbox jump about while the clutch is slipping, and is usually due to a clutch fault.  However, nearly all vehicles can give a slight judder when the transmission is caught out by an unusual combination of events.  For example, to leave home I must negotiate a slightly uphill T junction.  At times, with a cold engine, if I have almost stopped with the clutch out, but see the road is clear to join and bring the revs back up and re-engage the clutch to pull away, there is a transient slight judder on almost every vehicle I have driven from this junction.  I think it is a case of slow harmonics, where a slight unevenness, possibly from overnight rust haze, causes a slightly uneven bite on the clutch which starts the engine mountings and suspension bushes all wobbling around.

It is in this area that I rather think the Fiat judder problem probably lies.  The dual mass flywheel carries its damping springs at the periphery, whereas the conventional clutch plate carries its near its centre.  The effective lever arm dictates that the DMF springs have to be "softer" than those for a conventional clutch, for the same damping effect.  Soft springs have very different harmonics to stiff ones.  These harmonics, possibly amplified by the quite soft engine/suspension mountings now used to damp transmission harshness on diesels, may well prove the cause of the problem. 

Remember the famous bouncing "Blade of Light" bridge by Foster/Arup?  That was an example of what can happen when tried technology is put into a new context and the expected harmonics don't present.  Then someone has to analyse the components of the problem, so that a remedy can be produced. 

Without the analysis and understanding of what exactly causes the problem, any proposed remedy may just as likely make matters worse.  If the problem is harmonics the eventual solution is likely to be deceptively simple, but arriving at that solution will be far more difficult.  Harmonics are notoriously difficult to track and eliminate, potential remedies often merely moving a problem around the wavelength to emerge at some other frequency. 

All that can realistically be expected in the short term, is for Fiat to acknowledge the problem, commit resources to solving it, and agree to retro-fit whatever remedy is discovered.  In the meantime, unless you have a van that you regularly reverse uphill, this is not really a problem of great magnitude, but I do think you would be very well advised to make sure your dealer, local Fiat service centre and Fiat customer services are all advised of the problem, in writing, making clear that you regard this as unsatisfactory, and that you are seeking remedy under warranty.

[dshague]

some very good information here .than you for the quality posts..

[AndyStothert]

Today's subejct to keep this at the front of the forum queue is that the firm which supplied our lightweight MWB panel van conversion, Nu Venture Campers, have once more offered us our money back.

I'm tempted, but in truth that would be unfair on them. Why should a small company suffer for the mistakes of a huge concern like Fiat. And it was I who chose the base vehicle.

 

IF YOU HAVE A 2007/2008 Fiat Ducato which judders when reversing up a steep hill then please email me - andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk

 

If you have one of these vehicles and have never reversed it up a hill then do so soon, because it may very well carry the defective gene which so many seem to suffering with. IF THE JUDDERING GOES UNDETECTED AND UNREPORTED YOU MAY WELL FACE A HUGE BILL FOR GEARBOX REPAIRS IN THE FUTURE (if out of warranty) WHEN A STEEP HILL IS ENCOUNTERED.

[Guest Tracker]

WOW Andy, that is a huge advert and publicity coup for Nu Venture - I'm impressed - not something I am given to!

 

However the cynic in me has to wonder how much of their wonderful gesture is down to your position in the media?

 

Nevertheless all credit to Nu Venture.

[Edgeley]

I e.mailed Andy Re.my ;07 juddering Ducato and have an ongoing situation. Rest assured after 40 years with a Ford main dealer in Mannchester selling up to 4000 cars trucks & vans this situation will not persist. Food for thought friends Italian vehicle testers drive many thousands of miles forwards they only engage reverse in war situations.

[Edgeley]

Iam trying to ascertain how many vehicles are involved please e.mail me at ,william.yarwood@tesco.net

[Guest Tracker]

Edgeley - 2008-02-08 2:40 PM

Food for thought friends Italian vehicle testers drive many thousands of miles forwards they only engage reverse in war situations.

 

That explains the Peugeot connection then!

[Clive]

How is the list growing?

[AndyStothert]

Clive,

It's growing but to ensure Fiat take this seriously everyone who owns one of these otherwise (almost) excellent vehicles should go out and find a steep hill to reverse up and see what happens.

If it judders email me

andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk

[fred grant]

us as got a 1999 and the only time it judders me ansums is when alice is in the kazi. i as to drive very steddy my biddies, mostly in gear three, as thetferd dont supply seatbelts - at least not big enough for er majesty.

 

f

[dshague]

look at what cross say on subject..  http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=10500&posts=25

[AndyStothert]

dshague - 2008-02-09 9:02 PM

look at what cross say on subject..  http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=10500&posts=25

Yep, they don't have Welsh hills there for reversing, nor do they read the Fiat Service News Ciculars.

[Mike H]

Just going to try mine again, goes into Fiat tomorrow, for recalls, watergate, and investigation into clutch juidder. Going to try different styles, no revs, let clutch out and then rev, if it hasn't stalled. Rev to 1300 then let clutch out or try 3000 revs and see what happens.

Mike H.

[Clive]

Would appreciate some feedback on what you think of Fiats "cure" for the water ingress problem. Some have suggested its not exactly an engineered solution but a bit of a bodge.??

 

 

[colinfrier]

Hi

Below is a copy of a recent post from www.fiatforum.com regarding reversing judder "It's a characteristic of the van" so all questions now answered???????????????????????

Colin

 

 

Originally Posted by Joiner

Hi

I also have a new Ducato Maxi van and suffer the same judder, but also sometimes it can snatch and judder in 1st when the drive is taken up.

I have spoken to the dealer and the response was that if it didn`t happen at 1300 rpm or above then Fiat won`t recognise it as a fault. Try driving when you have to use 1300 rpm and above!!. Some of the comments from friends are that it could be too high a reverse gear, too small a clutch, clutch material.

 

I do quite a lot of trailer work and it is hopeless trying to reverse up any incline with an empty trailer never mind when there is any weight on it.

Lots of revs and slip the clutch!!!!

 

Also am I the only one to be suffering from poor fuel economy?. Without any trailer etc I can`t get better than 23mpg.

 

Hi, I have the same van, and the same judder, took it back to the dealer today and the official word form Fiat is that is a characteristic of the van . Never read that one in the brochure!!!!!!!!!1

 

 

[Andy T]

Joiner may be interested in this quote from a piece in ComputerActive about faulty goods.

"The six month protection (under the Sale of Goods Act) states that within that time period the consumer doesn't have to prove the goods are faulty; the retailer must prove otherwise. --- Repairs must be made in a reasonable time and the inherent fault corrected to make the product fit for purpose. If the same thing happens again, the product is still not fit for purpose. The law allows another chance to put things right, but after this (the owner) does not have to put up with having continuing repairs for recurrent faults and can demand a refund or damages."

I guess that "inherent fault" may equal "characteristic" in these circumstances.

And relating to another post can we cut the comments about Italians and reverse gear. Very old, no longer funny, not very grown up and not very likely to help our case if indeed Fiat are monitoring this forum.

Regards,

Andy T

[Clive]

You can,t be as old as some of us then Andy!

But from an Engineering Viewpoint the Sevel vans seem to jump from one under developed model with a clutch of faults and just when they seem to have got it right then change to a new model with another different load of faults. Its a pitty as the basic engine seems OK - if you can keep the water out that is! Oh and don,t select reverse.

 

[Clive]

Andy will be back from his working week soon I guess!