Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems

[snobbyafghan]

Citroen is mentioned in the topic title but I haven't seen any specific references to them in the posts.

 

Does anyone have any experience of this problem with Citroens? (Guess what make my van is..!)

 

Doug

[michele]

bump

 

[Derek Uzzell]

snobbyafghan:

 

The Citroen Relay base used for your Dimension is a clone of the Peugeot Boxer as far as 'motorisation' is concerned (ie. only 2.2-litre or 3.0-litre motors are installed). It would seem that the severe juddering-in-reverse problem relates only to Fiat Ducatos fitted with the 2.3-litre motor. (I say this deliberately in the hope that someone will tell me it's wrong. It would be helpful if people complaining that "My Fiat has got the judders" revealed which motor was fitted.) Suggest you try reversing up a steep slope and see what happens.

 

As far as the other problems listed on the motorhomefacts website are concerned, I think you should assume they potentially apply (where appropriate) to your motorhome too. Best to have a word with a Romahome dealer (I think Moran Motorhomes at Ludlow will be your nearest) to check what's happening regarding recalls, fixes and the like.

[Mike H]

Mine is the Fiat 130. I have forwarded details to Andy.

Mike H.

[dshague]

bump

[fud3]

Oh heck, just placed an order for a new Swift Suntore 580PR on a fiat, picking up in March, should I speak with the motorhome dealer now to see if they have had this problem brought to their attention and if so has anything been done about it, or should I speak to Fiat direct now rather than wait!

[zulurita]

I have the 2.3L 130 multijet bought Nov 2nd.

 

So far no juddering on reverse but then I haven't tried to reverse uphill, only into my parking space at home which isn't completely flat but neither would I consider it uphill.

 

Of course it did have the famous water feature!

[AndyStothert]

Greetings,

According to Fiat Swift are well aware of the problem and have been putting pressure of Fiat to sort it out - which they say they haven't yet done.

Have words with Swift and Fiat if you like, but don't expect anything but denials despite what Fiat have told me.

Cheers

Andy

[AndyStothert]

Can you take it somehwhere steep and reverse the hill then let me know how it fared and what model, make, engine, gearbox cahssis it is.

Thanks

Andy

[dshague]

the dealers no of these problems ..but when you are looking for a van they  say not aware of any problem's .then  go back to them and show them a print out of these posts . all recalls will be done before you pick up on 1st march but not the revising problem. if you  have payed your deposit like me .  don't think you can cancel if you wanted to.  anyway  we  dont want to cancel.

[AndyStothert]

Has anyone got access to the technical spec which gives the gear and differential ratios used in both the new and previous model Fiat Ducato and Peugeot Boxer.

An opinion that the revese gear ratio is slightly too high is gathering strength so can anyone with the proper techical knowledge provide an answer?

[eddie123]

Many years ago (1969) when I worked for Eaton Two-Speed Axles, I used to approve axle applications. I was responsible for the calculations to ensure that axle capacity and axle ratio matched a range of lorry engine/gearbox configurations and vehicle use i.e. potential for overloading. I have long since forgotten the formulea but I suspect that there are two issues at play here; one is that the ratio of reverse gear is too high for the engine or there is some transmission dynamics at play that only occurs during reversing. Obviously during reversing the the engine continues to rotate in the same direction but the torque reactions to the transmission/engine via the vehicle wheels are reversed, if the engineered loading points through the suspension and engine mounts have a degree of extra compliance for some reason or another it could result in a sort of energy wind up and release causing the juddering. Experienced drivers tacitly sense the revs at which maximum torque is delivered and when pulling away from rest they apply that level of throttle (in the case of the 130 Multi-jet this is around or just above 2000 rpm). The reason Fiat are advising drivers to use higher revs is to move the vehicle dynamics away from the problem zone. This is a fudge to mask a basic design error in my opinion. I have witnessed the juddering for myself, and in the long term this will take its toll. I will be complaing to my dealer and Fiat Customer Care in the next few days

[rowley]

I did experience judder on the first occasion that I reversed my Adria Twin, Fiat 2.2 100 mj, since then it has been ok. However I still have not reversed up a decent incline. When reversing I do not need to press the accelerator as tick over revs seem to cope.

[AndyStothert]

Could you go and find a decent hill then reverse the Adria up it then let me know how it feels.

I suspect that lower gearing on the five speed 2.2 engine models may be less prone to it than the higher geared 6 speed ones.

But I'm not sure, so some definite feedback may help to isolate exactly where the problem lies.

 

And as usual the daily request for those owners of these 2007/08 Fiats and Peugeot/Citroens who are unhappy with the way they judder on steep hills in reverse to contact me.

I'm considering going to VOSA (govt vehicle agency) over the safety aspects of this problem and to get them to listen need a fairly long list of unhappy owners to back it up.

 

So email me if you own one and are dissatisfieed with the response from Fiat

 

andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk

[Mike H]

Have written to C&CC today asking them to publish a letter in the Magazine. Hopefully we will get some more feed back from owners who haven't visited this site yet.

Mike H.

[fred grant]

fred says see italiaspeed.com

 

for gear ratios

 

4.083:1

 

??????

 

zall beyond i me luvvers

[AndyStothert]

Thanks, will have a look at Italiaspeed.com and report back

 

Anybody with any concerns about the judder whilst reversing a latest model Fiat Ducato (late 06 onwards) plesae email me.

andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk

[Derek Uzzell]

With lengthy threads like these, it's sometimes preferable to choose "Nested" format rather than the default "Flat" format (See Format selection below the "Welcome box" towards the top-right of the screen). The Nested format prevents the thread being split into 'pages' and, in this instance, might have made it evident that the Italiaspeed website and gearing was touched on much earlier.

[eddie123]

There is another factor involved in this issue and that is the Fiat van with its 120 hp engine is offered on 15 inch and 16 inch wheels presumably with some sort of road tyre, whereas the Fiat chassis/engine destined for motor home use with its chipped 130 hp engine having a different power delivery curve and probably running on 16 inch wheels with Camping tyres will be subject to an increase in rolling radius, thus having the effect of pushing up the effective gear ratios.

However because the problem is very extreme in reverse and not at all apparent in 1st gear (which currently looks like it has a higher ratio than reverse), leads me to think that it is more to do with the suspension and engine /gearbox mounting.

[AndyStothert]

Eddie,

No, what we think is that reverse has a higher ratio than 1st.

Odd I know, but that's how it's looking. Personally I couldn't give a monkeys if it worked OK, but having paid all this cash, not wanting to buy another van for a while, and finding that the thing is useless in hilly terrain (where I spend my life) I'm all of a sudden getting concerned.

I am going to test it as long as the speedo registers going backwards, which I can't recall seeing one way or the other.

 

If you own one take it to a steep hill and reverse the thing up.

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

Eddie:

 

With latest SEVEL chassis the tyre position (as I understand it) is as follows:

 

Ducato, Boxer and Relay/Jumper chassis to "Maxi" specification (seemingly now also termed "heavy" chassis in SEVEL-speak) have 16" diameter wheels, whereas "light" chassis designed for a Maximum Authorised Mass not exceeding 3500kg have 15" diameter wheels. I believe that, when 'camping tyres' are fitted the sizes will be 225/75 R16C (heavy chassis) or 215/70 R15C (light chassis).

 

The 16" tyre has a greater rolling circumference than the 15" one, so, if the wheels from a 'heavy' chassis were transferred to a 'light' chassis, the latter's existing gearing would be raised significantly. (I haven't got exact data for the two tyre sizes, but we'd probably be looking at an increase of around 9%).

 

However, based on the information on the Italiaspeed website, it seems that the final-drive ratio of power-trains used with 'heavy' chassis vehicles is considerably lower than that employed on 'light' chassis. When a 2.3-litre motor is used with a Maxi chassis the final-drive ratio is some 19% lower than when the same motor is fitted to a 'light' chassis. Even though the Maxi-chassis' bigger wheels/tyres raise the overall gearing, this increase is more than offset by the much lower final-drive ratio. The opposite seems to occur with the 3.0-litre motor where the final-drive ratio is some 7% lower when a Maxi chassis is involved.

 

Fiat's Ducato advertising claims that (for the 130 and 160 MultiJet motors) "specific gear ratios were defined for optimised performance on a motorhome". I don't know what this statement translates to in reality (and it won't apply to panel-van conversions in any case), but it might mean that the gearboxes of 2.3-litre and 3.0-litre motors used in 'light' chassis destined for conversion into motorhomes get a 'heavy' chassis final-drive ratio.

 

The Geist ST690 (130 MultiJet motor/Al-Ko chassis) test-report in the January 2008 CC magazine speaks of "a very low first gear", but I can't decide whether the vehicle has a 'light' or 'heavy' basis. Although the Geist's MAM is quoted at 3500kg, the vehicle's sheer bulk suggests it's on a 'heavy' (4000kg) chassis deliberately limited to 3500kg to widen its market appeal. If it's actually on a genuine 'light' chassis then it's probably got Maxi-chassis gearing, and if it's on a down-plated Maxi-chassis it will have low-gearing anyway. (I'm inclined to the latter theory, as the wheels look like 16"-ers.)

 

The Italiaspeed website indicates that reverse-gear for the 2.3-litre 120 MultiJet power-train fitted to a panel-van is around 8% lower than 1st gear. I did a VERY rough calculation using the 1st and final-drive (4.222:1) ratios quoted by Italiaspeed, and compared the result with my own Transit-based motorhome (making an allowance for different wheel/tyre sizes) that has a very obviously high first gear. This seemed to show that a Fiat panel-van's overall gearing in 1st gear was even higher than my Ford's. I'm not too comfortable with this conclusion as, if the Fiat's bottom-gearing is that high, I would have expected it to have been remarked on before. However, if correct, it might mean reverse-gear (though apparently lower than 1st) could still prove to be unpleasantly high when the vehicle has to back up a steep incline.

 

If one knows a transmission's intermediate and final-drive ratios and the rolling circumference of the tyres, it's not that difficult to obtain a figure for the speed at which a vehicle will travel at a specific rpm in a particular gear. The tricky thing is to interpret such figures as far as 'drive-ability' is concerned. When I did this for my Hobby motorhome, it confirmed what I already knew from driving the vehicle - that 1st gear was high and that there was a sizeable gap between 4th and 5th. From a drive-ability point of view I couldn't care less about the 4th/5th gap, but I loathe the high bottom-gear ratio because it's impossible to adapt my driving technique to overcome the ratio's inevitable consequences without deliberately putting stress on the clutch.

 

The fact that the flywheel/clutch assembly and power-train mountings were different on the outgoing SEVEL chassis (that didn't exhibit juddering-in-reverse symptoms) strongly suggests to me that that's where the problem lies with the latest SEVEL models.

[AndyStothert]

Derek,

Yes, I think we're getting all that. I'm so good with the computer that I coudln't find the gear ratiso for the new Fiat on that website......

Strangely, bottom gear does feel a low ratio, and I think it will go faster in reverse than than 1st.

 

I've got (several unhappy owners who are prepared to get involved in giving Fiat some incentives to sort this out, but not yet enough to make it really work.

ANYBODY OUT THERE WITH A JUDDERING (IN REVERSE UPHILL) FIAT PLEASE EMAIL ME - andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk

 

I know some of you must be getting bored with this by now, but can all those helpful fok who have been keeping it at the top of the page continue to help us poor sods who havebeen silly enough to buy one of these R&D projects.

[euroserv]

Andy,

 

Please could you let me have your chassis number and I will see if there are any clues that could confirm or otherwise Derek's theories using our Fiat parts disc. I should be able to determine exactly what gears you have in your box, and whether therefore your 'light' chassis has 'heavy' parts.

 

I personally believe it has more to do with the DMF and engine mountings, but the more we know the better.

 

Nick

[madmick]

Andy,

 

gear ratios for Ducato panel vans:

 

2.2 100ps 1st 3.727:1

reverse 3.154:1

final ratio 4.933:1

 

2.3 120ps 1st 3.727:1

reverse 4.083:1

final ratio 4.222:1 (maxi 5.231:1)

 

3.0 160ps 1st 4.167:1

reverse 4.083:1

final ratio 4.222:1 (maxi 4.563:1)

 

standard van tyres 215/70R15C optional 225/70R15C

maxi van tyres 215/75R16C optional 225/75R16C

 

let me know if you need more figures old wise one

 

madmick

[Mike H]

Madmick.

Read your reply to Andy with gear ratios. Have you got the ratios for the 2.3 130ps? The one used only for motrocaravans. I looked on Italiaspeed website but they weren't shown. I'm sure Andy will want to know these, for his data collection etc.

Thanks. Mike H.