starvin marvin Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 I haven't read all the bits on this string or whatever its called, but am I alone in thinking that its about time a motoring journalist bought a pup? I've read so much tosh about how this new model is so much improved on the previous, better seat heights, better this, that and the other. It happens all the time whether its Ford, Fiat or anything thing else. Go back to the launch of the old model and again it would be the same, a new brilliant vehicle that knocks the socks off the old one. Fiat sold this model very much on its motorhome friendly platform and all the testers seem to have missed this problem. I've got the previous model which was then supposed to be the bees knees. I've just suffered the first alternator failure in my 40+ years driving (I know they were dynamos when I started) it managed to cook my battery by overcharging. 700 plus euros to fix in France but heh oh it was the bees knees only four years ago. The model before mine, didn't that one have a self destruct gearbox (well 5th gear anyway) but I don't recall any motoring journo getting caught with that problem and somehow that never got the interest this has. Funny that isn't it. For vehicle testers like Andy and his pals to miss something as fundemental as this, well if it that had happened to me when I was gainfully employed I would very quickly have been kicking stones down the gutter with my P45 in hand. However I do hope this issue is sorted pretty quick for everyones benefit but do not forget what FIAT stands for "F@#*ing Italian Aways Trouble" and you won't go far wrong. I'm not convinced I did the right thing myself for having bought one, although I do love it when the silver bullet cruises at 130 kph. But thats an italian motor for you all flash and no substance, you can certainly so easily get suckered. I've been thinking about a time share any advice Andy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starvin marvin Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 I haven't read all the bits on this string or whatever its called, but am I alone in thinking that its about time a motoring journalist bought a pup? I've read so much tosh about how this new model is so much improved on the previous, better seat heights, better this, that and the other. It happens all the time whether its Ford, Fiat or anything thing else. Go back to the launch of the old model and again it would be the same, a new brilliant vehicle that knocks the socks off the old one. Fiat sold this model very much on its motorhome friendly platform and all the testers seem to have missed this problem. I've got the previous model which was then supposed to be the bees knees. I've just suffered the first alternator failure in my 40+ years driving (I know they were dynamos when I started) it managed to cook my battery by overcharging. 700 plus euros to fix in France but heh oh it was the bees knees only four years ago. The model before mine, didn't that one have a self destruct gearbox (well 5th gear anyway) but I don't recall any motoring journo getting caught with that problem and somehow that never got the interest this has. Funny that isn't it. For vehicle testers like Andy and his pals to miss something as fundemental as this, well if it that had happened to me when I was gainfully employed I would very quickly have been kicking stones down the gutter with my P45 in hand. However I do hope this issue is sorted pretty quick for everyones benefit but do not forget what FIAT stands for "F@#*ing Italian Aways Trouble" and you won't go far wrong. I'm not convinced I did the right thing myself for having bought one, although I do love it when the silver bullet cruises at 130 kph. But thats an italian motor for you all flash and no substance, you can certainly so easily get suckered. I've been thinking about a time share any advice Andy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 Tony, That's a bit harsh on Andy. How many of us reverse a vehicle up a steep hill on a test drive and at the time of his purchase this was an unknown issue. I think Andy deserves support and gratitude for his perseverance with this because there is little doubt that without his 'higher than Joe Public' profile he is more likely to get the ear of those who make decisions than you or I ever will. Give the guy a break! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starvin marvin Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 Rich, You help to make my point, I don't think I'm being harsh. Vehicle testers have a responsibility, none of us asked Andy to do the job it was his wish. As you point out he perhaps has some clout to get something changed, we'll see. If this was me or you I doubt very much if the journo's would be banging the drum so loud. As I said I hope its sorted quickly for everybody benefit. Somebody, loads of somebodies tested this super, built for motorhome conversion model and missed this issue. Some testers have missed more obvious faults, but Andy motorhomes in the hills he often talks of testing a vehicle on steep hills, but it appears he never thought to assume a situation where he may have to reverse up a steep hill, well there you go, another costly lesson learned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 We've been thinking about a replacement for the van we've owned for 14 years but not being a great fan of the Sevel range found the choice a bit limiting, so I was trying to be a bit more open minded as just about everything is built on them. Like others I've followed this unfortunate situation on these threads as I'm sure many who work in the magazines, dealers and converters have too. I've spoken directly, by phone, and more recently communicated by email to several dealers and converters, asking for comments regarding this major fault and just as many of of you have found, it's a wry smile here or a surprised "oh?" there or a begrudged acknowledgement, sometimes no reply. I've also emailed Fiat expressing my concerns as a potential customer and asked for their comments (no reply as yet). This whole episode has soured my opinion of the motor-caravan industry in general. They do themselves no favours with their tight lipped response to this sorry saga, surely they have a moral obligation to use their collective power, and force the hand of the manufacturer who are failing to even recognise that something is very wrong with their product. What happened to honesty and integrity? Maybe they should remember it's we the end users who provide their bread and butter. They probably think if they bury their heads in the sand it'll go away and we'll just keep buying - what if we all decide just to hang on to our vans or put off buying that first van for another year or two? Don't think they'd like that at all. I take my hat off to you Andy, many a person would have returned their van to the converter and let them get on with it. Stick with it, there is strength in numbers and it's good to know the qualities I mentioned lacking in some, are still there in bucket-loads in others. Cheers, Greg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 If you read the mags the X/250's virtues are STILL being 'Talked Up'.At the NEC Fiat had their own stand, ALL problems under control they assured me. I didn't belive them ! But it's quite hard to find a converter that doesn't use them.. why ?? (' cause they are cheap) . I am looking for a new van, fancy a Devon Limousin, on a Renault chassis. My wife fancies the Murvi Piccolo BUT it's on a Fiat !!! No thank you ! how many Fiat vans do you see being used by high mileage delivery drivers ?? or even by the local jobbing builder ?? They know that Fiats are cheap for a good reason..... and they don't buy them. Renaults are not perfect, but you do see a lot of them on the road, being used Hard. Thanks for the valuable information Andy, and i appreciate that it was YOUR money that you spent on your flawed new van. Hope it works out for you. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo3090 Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 I've just spoken to 3 large main motorhome dealers across the country who advertise in MMM magazine. 2 have never heard of any problems with clutches/gearboxes. They had all heard of "something to do with water dripping into the engine compartment, but that's all sorted". The third one had heard of this "urban myth" about the gearboxes not going into reverse, but had no evidence whatsoever of a "mainstream fault requiring a vehicle re-call" So there you have it. Problem solved, it's all a jolly jape by some joker out there. Some people have too much time on their hands! >:-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted March 14, 2008 Author Share Posted March 14, 2008 I take offence at being called a motoring journo? I'm scenery snapper by trade, and I'm certainly not organised enough to be a journalist. Yes, I do test the odd motorhome for MMM, but its not my line of work, and it ain't that often I get to do it as the mag generally receives too many letters of complaint to the effect that I'm being too harsh on them. A few years ago I tested the new Romahome and discovered that it wouldn't go up Hardknott Pass as the front wheels came off the road. I got a lot of stick from the readers for even trying to drive it in such places. Strangely next month's MMM has one of mine in, and as it's a new model, and I've learnt some lessons from the Ducato Debacle, I drove it a lot further and a lot more thoroughly than I have before. And, in some magazines (NOT MMM) the opinion of the editor overrides that of the tester, so you never know whether what you read is what was written. So there we are - I'm not a motoring journalist. I find taking photos of mountains stressful enough. The issue here though isn't about whether I got what I deserved (which I probably did) but that this whole sitaution is resolved. And if the chap who was laughing at my situation had been following this he would have known that I could easily have cut and run with the offer of my money back, but that I'm just too old and bloody minded to do it. If this defect isn't sorted out soon the second hand market in a couple of years time is going to be chaos, with a huge number of dodgy vehicles for sale. If owners don't spot this fault and tell Fiat they are just going to keep on selling them and an awful lot of owners a bit further down the time line are going to be left high and dry with duff vehicles. SO if you haven't seen this forum before and haven't been ranted at to go and reverse your new Fiat/Peugot up a steep hill well go and do it. If it judders complain to Fiat or Peugeot, and don't be fobbed off. If you have a judderer and want want more info email me andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred grant Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 sounds to i me ansums as if sraevinmarvin as such a large chip on is shoulder that freds thinking of removin it to go with is slab of fish for tonites supper. how about it starvin, wanna lose a few pounds my biddy? fryintonitefred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 It seems to me Fiat et. al. have realy shot themselves in the foot over this one. In years gone past they would produce vehicles with faults and keep it quite, pretending there's nothing wrong, now we have the internet, people all over the country know about it now, and in dening it they are getting a bad reputation, but worse for them could be to come, if they say there's no fault, then even if they fix it, how can they say they have fixed a fault that is not there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyH Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 Hi Andy, Well said, I support you even though I am ex MH and now caravan. Only a shot in the dark but do you think the Caravan Channel (also discusses Motothomes) might be interested? http://caravanchannel.tv/ and on Sky channel 167 Mon, Wed, Fri 7.00pm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo3090 Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 Tried to ring another Sevel based dealer at 16.00 this afternoon. Their sales manager is getting back to me about the problem just as soon as he has dealt with a customer. That must be one hell of a deal he is negotiating! I am going to visit the dealer where we are getting ours from tomorrow to have a "face to face" chat. I'll be in touch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo3090 Posted March 15, 2008 Share Posted March 15, 2008 Been to my dealer today, who reassured me that FIAT have made some changes to the latest 2008 vans gearboxes. Although he wasn't sure what! The problem it seems was on some early models and as he says these have been ironed out. They had one van returned under warranty because of the gearbox/clutch failing after 500 miles, (A Frankia), in late 2007, this had the gearbox replaced and has not had any problems since. I feel much easier about getting my van now. I know some people will question his answers, (and my accepting them!), but they have been reliable to us with our existing van and he hasn't given me any reason to start mistrusting him now. There may be trouble ahead, as the song goes, but the van will have a 3 year warranty so any potential faults, if there are going to be any, will surely show up by then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted March 15, 2008 Author Share Posted March 15, 2008 Re the question of whether Fiat have made any changes to the models now being sold the answer is 'very unlikely'. The man in charge of Fiat chassis supply to the motorhome market stated categorically at the NEC in February that no changes have been made to eliminate the juddering and that he would be pursuing the mattter with some vigour. He also said that a solution was never going to be implemented quickly. But he isn't PR or Customer Relations so it makes absolutely no difference to us Fiat owners (and customers) whatever he says. And he knows it, and so do Fiat. Of course Fiat Customer Care and Fiat PR obviously don't acknowledge that a defect exists only that the juddering is a 'characteristic'. But today we have learnt that Fiat have once more moved the goalposts as Mike Hoodless, a severe sufferer of the judders, received a letter from Fiat which states, after 'testing' his van, that Fiat cannot find any manufacturing defect, and that using higher engine speeds wil help reduce the juddering. Strangely it does not address our concern that the juddering is a design defect (and not a manufacturing one) and they are now openly admitting that the juddering cannot be eliminated by using higher engine speeds when releasing the clutch. So it still isn't a fault in their technical specification if it chews the contents of the gearbox on a steep hill in reverse. In view of the fact that MMM are to publish a feature about this matter Fiat are to make a definitive and full statement next week, which may or may not be the truth. As for believing what a dealer tells you about reported faults which may prejudice a sale? An interesting concept. And don't believe that 3 year warranty covers stuff like clutches either, becausre it doesn't and the clutch is one of the components most likely to fail as a result of the juddering. I apologise if all this is getting a little boring and repetetive (you should try typing it every night and spitting feathers every time you do it) but can all of you who own one of these latest model Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen models go and reverse it up a steep hill. The 5 speed models will need a really steep hill to get the full flavour of what Fiat now believe to be excellence in engineering, whilst lucky 6 speed owners can get a taste of this modern engineering 'characteristic' on much less severe gradients. If you aren't happy with the resulting judder complain to the manufacturer, and don't be fobbed off with it the 'don't worry, used higher revs' fob off. Make an official complaint. Then email me and I'll send you information about what to do next to protect yourself and hopefully, if we get a resolution to this, the folk who buy these things second-hand in the future. andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parkmoy Posted March 16, 2008 Share Posted March 16, 2008 I would like to thank Andy for his efforts. I intended to change my MH at the end of the season but have now changed my mind because of the reversing problem. I'm revamping my van, getting a few additions, and will now keep it for a few years more at least. Maybe by then there will be a choice of nearly new fault free vehicles around. It's saved me cash as well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted March 16, 2008 Share Posted March 16, 2008 AndyStothert - 2008-03-15 5:32 PM Then email me and I'll send you information about what to do next to protect yourself and hopefully, if we get a resolution to this, the folk who buy these things second-hand in the future. andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk Anyone buying one of these new, or owning one for that matter, should really think about this last statement from Andy. Were we in the market for a new van, currently we are happy with what we have but if the Emmision thing becomes a problem we may have to rethink, I for one will not touch one of these second hand with a barge pole and I have always been enthusiastic about Peugeot chassis. So if there are many like us then the resale value for these is bound to drop like a stone, or so they will tell you at trade in time. Bas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted March 16, 2008 Author Share Posted March 16, 2008 It's now nearly four weeks since Fiat conducted the latest 'road test' on our juddering camper and despite numerous calls and emails to Justin Westnedge (Fiat Senior Customer Relations Excecutive) starting from the day after our van was 'tested', I haven't had anything in writing to state what conclusions they have come to. I've told him I don't want to know anything verbally but to just write me a letter stating whether Fiat consider my van to be defective or not. Then I can start planning what to do next in this sorry saga which started in May last year. But Fiat are unwilling to commit themselves in writing to anything. On my last call I asked him about personal integrity, and about it not being something you can leave at the door when you enter your workplace, but he couldn't quite grasp what I was talking about. And that goes for the dealers who are telling porkies too. And now the rant- If you have a latest model Fiat or Peugoet based motorcaravan and haven't yet reversed it up a steep hill (1 in 5) to experience the horrible juddering, well I'm not going to stop repeating this until you do so. Or Fiat come up with a fix - which isn't looking likely as it seems it is such a fundamental problem that they would have shut us all up by now and done it if it was a simpe matter. IF IT JUDDERS email me - andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy T Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 My X250 now tested twice by local Fiat dealer, first by technician who made the clutch smoke trying to compensate for the judder and today by their service manager who tried to reverse, found the judder straight away, said "Oh, yes" very quickly, engaged first gear and drove back to the garage. Not a very steep hill either, housing estate, 1 in 10 say? Now awaiting Fiat's comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike H Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 Fiat say, they will not accept an Independant Engineers' report, But I have booked the van in on Wednesday, 19th, for a road test and report regarding the severe juddering when reversing. With an Independant Engineer. I can't wait to see what someone not connected to Fiat has to say. I am also awaiting a reply from Fiat, with details of where and what type of hill the Fiat Engineer, tested my van on, they only said he did a full inspection, and could not find a manufacturing defect and advised that no further action is to be taken. Recommending that the revs be raised to 1300 rpm when reversing and pulling away. Will keep you updated when I get any more news or result of inspection. Mike H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyH Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 Moved to the top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joiner Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 Hi folks, I have arrived here after seeing mention of the site on the FIAT Forum ( well worth a look ). I am self employed joiner and as such I bought a new LWB Maxi van in late 07. The van has all the problems as suffered by you motorhome owners, so you are not alone. If you want to find vibrations then you should try reversing a trailer!!! I have tried to gain some action from the dealer, but all to no avail. After many phone calls to "Fiat Punter Dont`t Care" department I am still waiting for a call back from Sue. This tosh about using 1300 revs is all very good if you are wanting to take off from the traffic lights but absolutely useless at all other times. Do Fiat have shares in the clutch companies. ( guess who has to pay for burnt out clutches?? ) If there is anybody out there with a magic idea then for god sake please let us know. If it`s any consolation have a look at the Transit forum, and see what those lads are afflicted with as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyH Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 Hi Joiner, Can you post the websites of the Fiat and Transit forums please. RoyH Support Andy Stothert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joiner Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 I am note that computer literate ,but if you just type in FIAT forum, or Transit etc to any search engine then you will get to the site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyH Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 OK Joiner Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossko Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 Hi Mike H How did you classify an independant engineer & where did you did you find him. We obviously need them to be able to override the technicians opinions at the fiat dealers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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