Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems

[Clive]

I see that the MMM editor has given a full page to this in the June issue and requests more input. Hope you guys are obliging!

 

Email address is mmmeditor@warnersgroup.co.uk

 

Good luck and keep the pressure up.

 

C.

 

 

[Mrs Sea]

We have had our Adria Twin just under a year. We have read all the posts on the problems with the new Sevel van based motorhomes. We can report that though we have the water ingress problem with the scuttle under the windscreen we have not had any problems with the judder when in reverse. We have taken the van for a test reverse up several hilly stretches of road near here and, so far, have experienced nothing untoward. Maybe we're lucky, maybe it is because it is a panel van conversion and therefore not as heavy? We only have the basic 5 speed 100 model.

 

We have taken up the matter of the water ingress with the dealer and also the problem of the hard to close sliding side door. Will keep you posted as to how we get on.

 

Thanks to the forum for warning us about the problems.

[Basil]

Those of you who are not members of the Caravan Club may be interested to know that they have an article in the latest issue regarding this issue of the club magazine (and the water ingress with a particular mention of the Peugeot version not being repaired to the same standard as the Fiat) and suggest that purchase of these vehicles should be avoided with the exception of the 3.0 litre automatic until the situation is satisfactorily resolved.

 

Bas

[duettoman]

Same standard as the Fiat fix??? I assume that was a joke! My fiat still leaks like a sieve. Fiat maintain (to me) that there is no permanent solution. Anyone who has had a half decent solution that solved the water ingress problem had it is as a direct result of local expertise in an individual garage. Fiat are still working on a permanent fix which should be ready some time never and will issue a recall if/when it ever did happen. The 'temporary fix' is to put a cover over the rusty injectors, as much to hide the rust underneath as to protect the injectors! It doesn't involve sealing windscreens, the scuttle join or the gaping gaps at the bottom edges of the windscreen.

 

 

[Basil]

Hi Duettoman, that was the point Peugeot are not even offering the cover for a fix, unless you were prepared to pay over £150!!

So despite the Fiat 'fix' not being up to your (or anyone else perhaps) reqiuirements Peugeot are offering nothing.

 

Bas

[Derek Uzzell]

It's perhaps worth highlighting that the factual and critical full-page June 2008 Caravan Club Magazine article (headed "A Shaky Situation") mentioned by Basil, doesn't directly suggest that people in the market for a new motorhome should delay purchase of current Ducato/Boxer-based motorcaravanners until the juddering problem is sorted out.

 

As Basil says, the article does claim that automatic Ducatos have Juddering Disease immunity, and its author (George Hinton) is clearly pessimistic that existing vehicles that do display this characteristic will be satisfactorily cured. The general tone of the article certainly means that anyone reading it who had intended to purchase a new Ducato/Boxer-based motorhome should surely give serious consideration to changing their mind (unless they had planned to buy a Ducato automatic), but George Hinton doesn't actually come out and say "Don't buy one until Fiat/Peugeot have resolved the problem". I accept that this may be hair-splitting, but non-CC members reading Basil's posting might otherwise believe that the Caravan Club has been more emphatic with its advice to motorcaravanners than it in fact has.

 

Mike P:

 

There's nothing new or controversial about Honest John's advice. Damaged DMFs do produce judder as the clutch is engaged (it's a sign that they are on their way out), but they normally (and logically) do it irrespective of which way the vehicle is moving.

 

A little while ago there were two letters in the CSMA's "Motoring and Leisure" magazine. Both were from Ford Mondeo-owning caravanners. Both owners reported clutch failure while the caravan was behind the car and (reading between the lines) both were giving the clutch a hard time when the failure occurred. The complaints seemed to be twofold, a) that the latest Mondeo's DMF clutch-assembly was more vulnerable to stress than earlier Mondeos' 'solid' clutches and b) that, when a DMF failed, the cost of repair was far higher than for a traditional clutch-assembly.

 

Slipping a vehicle's clutch naturally produces heat: the higher the engine speed and the greater the load on the clutch-assembly when it's being slipped, then the more heat that will be produced and the higher the likelihood that the clutch friction-materials will be irreparably damaged. This is just a Fact of Life, as is the higher cost of replacing a heat- or abuse-damaged DMF compared with a 'solid' clutch.

 

I raised the Fiat juddering problem recently with a motorhome dealer who agreed that some Ducato/Boxer-based motorhomes were prone to this. He thought that the vehicles' particular design of DMF might have something to do with it, saying that DMF-equipped Porsche cars were tricky to reverse smoothly. I mentioned that some Ducato owners had reported gearbox and clutch breakages. He said that this didn't greatly surprise him as moving a heavy motorhome slowly on a steep incline placed considerable load on the transmission and demanded very careful control by the driver. He felt that most experienced drivers could adapt their driving technique sufficiently to live with the unwelcome juddering characteristic.

[Basil]

Hi Derek,

 

I also do not want to split hairs but if you read my post again I actually said 'avoid' buying until resolved not 'do not buy'. I believe that is an accurate reflection of the tone of the article.

 

Bas

[Basil]

Not sure what happened it said 'Server Error' and I only pushed the button once!

[Basil]

Ditto

[Derek Uzzell]

Basil:

 

I agree that the 'tone' (and content) of the George Hinton's CC article should make any reader with an ounce of sense very wary of purchasing a manual-gearbox motorhome based on the present SEVEL chassis whilst the juddering problem remains unresolved.

 

I'm just pointing out that the article's wording doesn't say "avoid buying" or provide any similar specific discouragement to prospective buyers. Hopefully CC members will get the message implicit within the article, but non-CC members who don't read the magazine may be led to believe that the CC has recommended non-purchase of these vehicles and that's not so.

[mike 202]

It is a case of "Mind over Matter " Fiat/Peaugeot dont mind and we dont matter. Seriously what about the likes of Swift who only use Fiat, will they adapt and use Ford, VW etc or go out of business (Remember Autocruise) when we refuse to buy Sevel products. I am changing my Sevel based van before its too late and dealers dont want to know.

[Rayjsj]

If this Problem 'Juddering enough to cause damage to Vehicle doing a perfectly ordinary thing like reversing up an incline' is down to a 'new' type of Clutch/Flywheel assy. then, perhaps changing away from the old type is a MISTAKE and the 'old' but reliable(and proven over decades) type should be Re-Introduced........and bloody quick. 'New' things and designs stand or fall on their reliability NOT on how cheap they are or how they OUGHT to perform BUT on how they ACTUALLY perform.Dual Mass Flywheels DON'T appear to be perfoming??????.////t0. :D

[Derek Uzzell]

Rayjsj:

 

The Dual Mass Flywheel has been around since the mid-1980s and I believe all 'light-commercial' vehicles used as the basis for European-built motorhomes now have them, as do the majority of diesel-engined cars (and some petrol-powered ones too). So the DMF technology SHOULD be fully tried and tested by now.

 

Personally, I remain unconvinced that the DMF used on the latest X250 chassis is the root cause of the juddering, but, if it is, then it's hard to see why, as the fault seems to be unique to the SEVEL vehicles.

 

There's a useful DMF-related comment on:

 

http://htdig.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/?t=61626

[peterjl]

Hi

 

In the same CC magazine with the article you mention the CC have results of DESIGN & DRIVE 2008 competition. It seems Fiats did quite well!!!

 

I wondered what the drive consisted of - it did not say - do you think they should be asked if they reversed them up a slope?

 

I wondered how they could give a fair result if they hadn't.

 

Peter

[madmick]

Thanks to all those MMM readers who have taken the trouble to respond to the article in March issue, the letters in April and June issues, and various bits in Interchange.

 

All your responses have been logged and are forming part of our ongoing investigation into the situation.

 

Our recent correspondence with Fiat UK indicates that a statement from Fiat Italy is expected imminently.

 

We'll keep you up to date if and when that happens.

 

And keep watching MMM...

 

 

 

[colin]

Seemed an interestingly diplomatic but telling way of getting message across in MMM, for those who haven't read it, Three letters taking up a full page and an editoral comment about a growing post bag.

[Derek Uzzell]

A reliable confidential source in Rome has informed me that Fiat has consulted the Vatican for a definitive opinion on the juddering problem and the Pope, in turn, has referred the matter 'upstairs'.

 

It's to be hoped that Fiat's eventual statement will not follow the one that resulted from the infamous 1921 Mike O'Riley incident also involving the Holy Father. O'Riley, an Irish bricklayer, accidentally dropped his meagre lunch from a high scaffold. Praying to his favourite saint for help as his bread-and-butter tumbled through the air, he was amazed to see it hit the ground with the buttered-side uppermost. Now, it's universally accepted that, if one drops a piece of bread-and-butter, it will always land buttered-side down, so that evening O'Riley insisted to his local priest that a miracle must have occurred through the saint's intervention. The priest tended to agree, but felt it necessary to seek more authoritarian advice. O'Riley's 'miracle' was passed up the Catholic Church's chain of command until it finally reached the top. After much deliberation the Pope issued the following statement: "A miracle had NOT occurred - O'Riley had just buttered the wrong side of the bread".

 

It will be intriguing to learn what Fiat comes up with, but an 'O'Riley-style' statement might be "As Boxers/Ducatos/Relays do NOT judder when moving forwards, owners are clearly causing the juddering by driving them in the wrong direction". In fact, when one thinks about this, it's a perfectly reasonable and logical explanation that should surely satisfy any present or prospective owner of a motorhome based on these vehicles.

[Rayjsj]

After my 'Last Post' I realised that I had no idea how a DMF , Dual Mass Flywheel worked, and as I had been 'adding my twopence worth' that made me a bit of a hypocrite ! So, here it is folks a really super 3D Animation on how they (DMF's ) Work.

I think I understand how they work now,but as to why Fiat can't produce one that ACTUALLY smoothes out the Power Flow from Engine to Transmission (and ONLY in Reverse) is the £64,000 question ??? dollar Da T :D

[davenewellhome]

I tried a Compass on the Peugeot yesterday and it did exhibit some transmission vibration when reversing up hill. Interestingly trying to take off forwards in 2nd gear produced the same vibration. What does that tell you?

 

D.

[Derek Uzzell]

Dave:

 

George Hinton's article in the CC Magazine describes the vibration problem as "occurs when the clutch is fully engaged and manifests itself as an apparent shaking of the entire engine/transmission unit on its mountings as you begin to ascend a rise from the level". Is this an accurate analysis in your experience, please? (It's the "when the clutch is fully engaged" bit that rather perplexes me.)

 

I believe I recall you saying that the vibration felt more engine-mountings-related rather than being due to the clutch (and this would certainly be my guess) and I think Andy Stothert had also come round to this view.

 

While it's easy (and perhaps logical) to cite Fiat's DMF clutch-design as the cause of the vibration on the basis that a DMF clutch was only introduced for Project X/250 vehicles, it might be asked why Iveco vehicles with essentially the same 2.3litre and 3.0litre motors, and DMF clutches that (presumably) match those of Boxers/Ducatos/ Relays, don't display this unpleasant characteristic. If it's the Ivecos' RWD configuration that makes the difference, then this would point to the root cause of the defect being the manner in which the engine/transmission is mounted in X/250 vehicles.

[Dave Newell]

Hi Derek, of those vehicles that I've tried very few produced anything like a judder but most exhibited some vibration of the engine transmission unit. My earlier feeling was that it was mounting related and I'm still generally of that impression but having discovered I could replicate the vibration going forward by pulling away in 2nd gear I'm not entirely sure now. I'm leaning more towards too high a reverse gear as the major culprit but without having tried one that REALLY does it I don't know. Perhaps a few of the owners who have complained of this judder/vibration could try pulling away uphill in second and saee if it vibrates/judders then. That would surely put suspicion upon the high reverse gear.

 

One thought that did cross my mind was wheel sizes. If those that don't do it are on smaller wheels that would further suggest its a gear ratio issue.

 

Maybe I'll start a new thread asking for these details.

 

D.

[colin]

If we are not carefull we may end up looking for a judder when any vehicle gets one, how many T25 owners complain of judder? non that I'm aware of, yet I've managed to get severe judder from mine, I had a fully laeden van with a heavy 4 wheel trailer on back loaded with a P&W 1830 + ancilories, I may have been a bit close to GTW *-) pulled up in very rough layby and when trying to pull away felt like engine was trying to jump out the back, only got out with help of 4 other van drivers pushing, whislt the van needs to work correctly in any normal circumstast that can be expected to be found on road I'm sure any van can be made to judder if overloaded.

[brom]

It's not the case that the judder only came in with the X/250. We had a Tribute (2.3 litre, 110 horse LWB, 5-speed box) on a '54 plate, and when we moved to a house on a hill (about 1:8), we found it juddered badly, but only in reverse. There was a bad smell of burning clutch (a bit like burning cheese), if you reversed into the drive. We gave up and thereafter went in forwards, which was inconvenient. Whether our 'van had a DM flywheel, I don't know.

When we tried the Ducato 100 (on the Fifer SWB), we were pleased to find that it would reverse up a medium hill without judder, so it was a great improvement on the previous model LWB. I have driven an AutoQuest, also on the 100, on a moderate slope without trouble, but also a basic Citroen Relay 'white van', a 100 SWB, and that did judder to a degree on our hill. It was certainly not as good as the other two, though it should have been identical, and was empty at the time.

The 120 Peugeot I have driven, on the same hill as the AutoQuest, was absolutely shocking. Worse than our Tribute. You couldn't get to the stage of letting the clutch fully out, it was a question of riding the clutch and revving the engine and hoping to smooth out the judder that way. That didn't work, and as it wasn't my 'van to wreck, I desisted when the clutch started to smell, after a couple of minutes.

On the other hand, I was talking to a man the other day, who had a 120 Relay MWB work van, and he said he had had no trouble at all, reversed it anywhere and everywhere (in the Lake District) as part of his daily routine, and thought it was the best van he had ever had. So, I suspect that they aren't all the same, and my experience of other vehicles (like 2 theoretically identical spec. T5's ) tells me that each one is slightly different. Like people.

If anyone with a non-juddering 120, 130 or 160 is likely to be in the Shap area and would be prepared to demonstrate its capablilities to me on our 1:8 hill, I would be most interested to hear from them.

[fred grant]

theres an offer you cant refuse my biddies!!!

 

fredd'll thro in a flagon of best cornish cider for everyone that turns up at broms place.

 

judderfreefred

[colin c]

I have read many tests on new motorhomes, but this problem has never been mentioned. Do the testers never reverse? *-)