Administrator Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Is there an environmental case for installing meters on hook-ups or should electricity continue to be included in pitch fees? Read the feature here: http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/channel/articleitem.asp?c=1&article=175 What's your view? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 I would support a meter on every pitch because we never use electric hook ups! I resent paying for something I don't want so much that I left the Caravan Club because of it. Unfortunately I am in the minority and thus my voice carries no weight with the Caravan (clue in the name) Club which specialises in towed caravans and obviously they all need a hook up when on site for a week. I fully understand that. Given the above I can't see many clubs or sites wanting to add to their costs by catering for a minority just to charge the majority a higher site fee to cover the cost of meters - plus the need to feed the meters somehow. On the other hand, early evidence suggests that fitting meters might well reduce consumption by enough to quickly cover the cost of installing them. Now that is interesting, not so much for the environment, as all the evidence shows that the vast majority of us (me included) are more interested in ourselves than we are in the environment and many of us feel that we pay so much tax anyway why should we inconvenience ourselves without incentive. There is no finer incentive than paying less! So just maybe for the first time ever people like me with no fixed awning, no extension windbreaks, no family of 6 and no tow car and caravan taking double the space might just get a fairer deal on site by not subsidising the others quite so much! Yeah - right - and pigs might fly! I don't object to the all singing all bells and whistles caravan brigade - far from it - diversity is good - so is freedom to camp according to our own tastes - but I do tire of subsidising them. Anyone got a shilling for the meter please! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordThornber Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 My view is this, if and I mean if, we all took a sensible balanced approach to using electricity then metering wouldn't be necessary. Although for the barmpots I refer to below it might be a good idea... Take this Christmas for example, the number of awnings we walked past with fan heaters blasting away was staggering. Yes you could hear them, I'm not kidding. Even worse was that a fair number of those with said heaters on that were not occupied!!! Madness. Martyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelvynT Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Sensible use would be best for everyone, however, it's unlikely to happen. I have a caravanning friend who states "I've paid for it, I'm going to use it" :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 They should install meters to all pitches. The comments in the article attributed to the Caravan Club i.e. "“We looked at the option of installing meters when OFGEM changed the rules and felt it just wasn’t feasible. Despite the numerous increases in the price of electricity since then, I can’t imagine that things are going to change. “I know from an environmental point of view we probably should meter electricity, but I think there would be uproar if we tried to impose that level of control over our membership."" I find unbelievable as the membership wanted them to install meters as they were OVERCHARGING for electric hook ups and when threatened with court action by some of the membership lumped the charge into the 'pitch fee' so that they were able to say it was free. The point being far from being uproar if they introduced metering, that is exactly what the members wanted but the CC said it would be to large an investment to meter every pitch. The upshot is that you have to have hook up whether you want it or not and therefore if you have to have it you might as well use as much as you possibly can. Bas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 A few years back, using sites in Germany, Switzerland and Austria, metereing seemed the norm. The only inconvenience was the need for the meter to be read before you could get you hook up cable back from the locked supply pillar. There is a valid point that the charge is for more than the electricity used, because part of the cost is installing and maintaining the distribution system. How that should be recovered is the commercially tricky part. Should those who occupy serviced pitches without using the service pay an increased pitch charge because they are "blocking" a serviced pitch, or should the site operator take the "loss" because although he provides the service, he let the pitch to someone who doesn't want to use it? Personal view; have pitches with and without an electrical service, charge more for those with, to cover the installation etc costs, meter the supply via locked cabinets, and accept the provision of a serviced pitch to those who don't want the service, at the lower rate - but leave the cabinet locked. That would control the "diddlers" who don't pay for a hook up, but sneak out after dark to plug in hair dryers and all their other little electrical toys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Brian - I believe the idea of lockable access points was mooted to the CC a few years back but it fell on deaf ears. They found a 'one size fits all' policy much more to their liking and because their sites are such a good standard much of the rest of the country's site owners jumped on the same bandwagon, and who can blame them. Maybe now a few chickens are coming home to roost - hopefully in heated sheds - but not at my expense - unless I buy the eggs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgeley Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 My no.1 hobby horse, I am a member of the CC and the C&CC .both these organisations are guilty of pious platitudes in respect of climate change and reckless indifference to the profligate waste of electricity on sites . In the C&CC we even have David Bellamy as President this has to be a joke ; both oganisations spend millions of pounds on refurbishing sites and at this time meters should be fitted as a legal requirement. I have a solar panel and do not require a hook up. I do not now use club sites as a matter of principle. I would resign except for the many certiicated sites both organisation have.Iwould support on a date to be decided a mass resignation, this may prompt a re-think.I witnessed at first hand the arrival of a young mother with two yougsters and a tent being forced to have unwanted electricity despite her protest to the young site manager.I would love to know how much profit both organisations derive from electricity sales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olley Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Hi why not simply reduce the ampage? We were at Piau Engaly recently and you only get 4amps, which is enough to power the gas heating, keep the batteries topped up and run the telly. Having an inverter the wife could even blowdry her hair. :-D If I can manage in an RV on that, surely you eurovan guys can. The French certainly can as there was about 60 of them there. Olley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corky 8 Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 I could not find argument against electricity meters on sites, to pay for what you use is only fair,Providing there is some standard by which they are regulated by law at what amperage per hour they can charge which would include a return on the instalation /upkeep of the supply ,but would also safeguard the consumer from being ripped off, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Corky 8 - 2008-02-08 3:33 PM I could not find argument against electricity meters on sites, to pay for what you use is only fair,Providing there is some standard by which they are regulated by law at what amperage per hour they can charge which would include a return on the instalation /upkeep of the supply ,but would also safeguard the consumer from being ripped off, That was the crux of the argument when the CC used to charge a fixed price for electric hook up, it is in fact illegal to re-sell electricity at a higher rate than you are charged by your supplier so the safeguard is already there. Also they cannot build in a 'return' to pay for the installation/ upkeep to the electricity charge for the previously stated reason so they would obviously build it in to some other fee such as the pitch fee therefore people who did not use/ want electricity would still pay for something they don't want/ use. The only answer is as Brian has already said and that is to have some pitches with electricity and some without but the site operators would probably say that there was not enough call for them, or least way that was what the Caravan Club said during the 'discussion' all those years ago. Oh yes and by the way we had a large twin axle caravan with all the electrics available then and two young children and we still did not want or need an electric hook up so the suggestion that it is caravanners that need it more than motorhomers is a red herring. The fact is as with most things some of us want it some of us don't but sites don't cater for everybodys tastes. Bas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Sites should have both pitches with and pitches without hookups. Those without pay a lower premium because less infrastructure is required. Those with hookups pay more and should be fitted with smart meters which telegraph the amount of electricity used back to the kamp kommandant. (This technology is comming to a house near you in the very near future and you will not have a choice). C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Cole Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 I am sure many of you have visited camp sites in France where you have a choice of pitches with or without power sockets, and you pay for the amount of power you wish to use eg 2 6 8 and 10amp supply, if you use more than you have paid for the trip in the box goes. I have not had a problem on any sites with this system. This could be a solution to the problem on CC sites and less costly than metering individual pitches, or limit the load of each pitch to say 1.5kw. Heating areas other than the van should in my opinion be prohibited, if every one on sites did this the system could quickly become overloaded, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djchapple Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 I think that having meters would be the best solution regarding use versus cost but for the site owners it would be a big added problem. Getting them fitted is expensive and maintaining them is a nuisance. Day to day control is also ads an extra load on the campsite. To avoid theft of electricity and to protect the vulnerable meter the meter presumably must be in a locked cabinet. A site employee must unlock the cabinet, install the lead, read the meter and then re lock the cabinet every time a camper arrives and the process reversed every time a camper leaves. It also means that the camper cannot pay the night before as the cost of electricity cannot be determined until the cable is unplugged. Campers also cannot leave unless staff are around to perform the necessary function. All in all a great hassle so its no wonder that they opt for the very simple blunt tool - everyone pays a standard charge for electricity which is included in the site fee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trigrem Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 I am all in favour of metered electricity but at the same time recognise it will not happen. The reason is both clubs took the easy way out from the OFGEM regulations and charge everybody whether you want it or not. At the time OFGEM stated in a written reply that there was no problem with organisations offering a discount to people who did not want electricity. Another option was to make the electricity free to all but charge a rental fee on the connection equipment. Neither club followed this up. Personally I avoid sites where there are no pitches without hookup, the C&cc have more of these than the CC, and we spend most of our holidays in Europe anyway so that is easy to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 What would worry me is if more sites start charging for showers, first you go to shower block to find you need some coins, or worse still you should have brought tokens from office which is now closed, then you have to work out which way the shower works, then you are half way throu showering when the money runs out. >:-( >:-( >:-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 This is the reason we actually left the Caravan Club originally, having only returned to them late last year when we had a week's holiday due in September which was too short a time to go abroad, so we joined up again and went to the Gower Peninsula and used some lovely CLs - beautiful place! As we usually do not require electricity, our motorhome being self-sufficient on it's 110amp battery, even for a few days. We don't have electric water heating or space heating, although it does require power to use the heating as it needs it for the fan. We only use electricity if it is included in the price, be it on a main site or at a CL. We do not use it excessively, regardless of whether we're on mains or not, we are frugal, much safer to be like that and ensure that we do not 'forget' to turn off lights etc - that way when we're running on our own battery power we are already in the habit of not being wasteful. Quite apart from the fact that we don't need mains electricity, and therefore would rather not pay for something we don't need if we can help it, I do understand that some people do need it, and therefore they should be able to use it if they so wish. What really gets me though, taking out of the equation the 'should I have to pay for it if I don't want it' argument, is the sheer wastage I've observed. As others have already mentioned, the number of caravanners, and some motorhome owners as well, that blatantly waste electricity for the sake of it is astonishing. Leaving awning lights on all night, having their 'vans lit up like Blackpool illuminations, TVs blaring away when they're out, obviously to let the local wildlife (furry type) watch Bill Oddie I assume! The most annoying are those who leave fires on in the awnings, either fan heaters or the halogen type ones which, in my opinion, are one of the most useless type going for heating large areas - okay if you're sat right up next to them (as I am now) but put them a few feet away and they are pretty useless. To me, people that leave appliances etc on unnecessarily when they are not using or do not need them are totally selfish. Not only do they waste energy for the sake of it, but they also could be depriving others on the campus of having the benefit of electricity when they need it. When we were on the Southport site around Christmas a couple of years ago, the transformer kept overheating and tripping out due to the massive load being placed upon it. This was partly due to the vast amount of people using inordinate amounts of electricity for their TVs, lights etc, just leaving them on because they could, plus the additional seasonal burden of loads and loads of Christmas lights, electrical decorations etc. We were without power for a few hours the first night, on the second night it went again and we were told it could be off all night, with an elderly poorly dog this was not funny at all (we ended up doing a mad dash to the vets at 3.00 am as it was and having to return home the same day). The other most annoying thing is that some of these people will say that they are doing their bit for the planet, recycling etc, but at the same time they are wasting, for the sake of it, electricity, which of course uses some of the earths dwindling resources to produce it. When in France we had meters on some of the campsites and CLs we used, if we had a choice we did not 'partake'. There was never a problem with this, if we decided to use it for whatever reason, we paid for what we used and just had the minimum level to do what we needed. We did not waste it. :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 djchapple - 2008-02-08 8:37 PM I think that having meters would be the best solution regarding use versus cost but for the site owners it would be a big added problem. Getting them fitted is expensive and maintaining them is a nuisance. Day to day control is also ads an extra load on the campsite. To avoid theft of electricity and to protect the vulnerable meter the meter presumably must be in a locked cabinet. A site employee must unlock the cabinet, install the lead, read the meter and then re lock the cabinet every time a camper arrives and the process reversed every time a camper leaves. It also means that the camper cannot pay the night before as the cost of electricity cannot be determined until the cable is unplugged. Campers also cannot leave unless staff are around to perform the necessary function. All in all a great hassle so its no wonder that they opt for the very simple blunt tool - everyone pays a standard charge for electricity which is included in the site fee. When thinking in the 'normal' way that pitches are set up in the UK the above does appear to be a problem, however a couple of the sites in France we have stopped on over the years used plug in meters that were numbered and you just pluged the meter into the outlet then your lead into the meter (different plugs and sockets by the way) and when you left you returned your meter to the office when you went to pay. There is no additional effort required by the site owner/ manager with this system and seemed to work very well. Another advantage of this system is that you did not need to have a hook up for the duration of the stay, as we didn't we just topped up the day and night before we moved on. Bas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingpete Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 I believe in paying for which ever service is available. I reject the need to buy electricity for abusers of the availability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 colin - 2008-02-08 10:08 PM What would worry me is if more sites start charging for showers, first you go to shower block to find you need some coins, or worse still you should have brought tokens from office which is now closed, then you have to work out which way the shower works, then you are half way throu showering when the money runs out. >:-( >:-( >:-( But why should sites not charge for showers and let the users pay? Surely this is the very principle we are all asking for? Most vans have a shower these days and whilst it may not be spacious I still prefer my own warm clean environment to one where every mucky bugger this side of christendom purports to clean themselves and leave the floor cold wet and grubby in the process! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 What a strange lot we are. People making comments about saving the planet and then running around in motorhomes that struggle to acheive more than 25mpg or cars towing trailors much the same. Then resenting paying for something you do not use, please, how much electricity do you actualy use on site. Now I have never measured my usage and care less but at home my average bill is £25 a month, a lot of this is standing charge so taking that out I probably average around 50p a day in a three bed house. Now on site in my motorhome I would be surprised if it is half that at most times of the year say around 20p a day, so come on guys get real, just enjoy yourself rather than sitting in your £40,000 motorhome wondering where the next 20p is coming from Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Welcome to the madhouse Henry! How do you reconcile your claim that daily electric costs 20p for a motorhome? It may cost the site that but it sure as heck would cost me more - if I paid for it. Most of the real cost of EHU's is hidden in the site fees so that we, or OFCOM, or the OFT are unable to challenge it, but where it is optional it is generally around the £2 to £3 per day mark, which for something I neither need nor want is a lot more than 20p? Over a two week holiday the saving is an extra 250 miles worth of liquid gold (diesel). I wish that I could escape with a monthly home electric bill of £25 - even with gas heating it is a lot more than that! Just for the record, sod the planet, let's look after ourselves and let the planet look after itself as it is far from proven that motorists in general, the UK in general or me specifically are solely responsible for the natural evolution of the planet's cyclical climate system. It seems that we alone are being taxed as if we are totally responsible for all the ills of mankind and not just the foul ups of successive incompetent governments jumping on a convenient passing band wagon whilst trying to cover their own grubby backsides. Remember, it was only a few short years ago that the prophets of doom were telling us that we were heading for another mini ace age. So what changed in such a short time scale, in planetary terms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 rupert123 - 2008-02-09 5:15 PM What a strange lot we are. People making comments about saving the planet and then running around in motorhomes that struggle to acheive more than 25mpg or cars towing trailors much the same. Then resenting paying for something you do not use, please, how much electricity do you actualy use on site. Now I have never measured my usage and care less but at home my average bill is £25 a month, a lot of this is standing charge so taking that out I probably average around 50p a day in a three bed house. Now on site in my motorhome I would be surprised if it is half that at most times of the year say around 20p a day, so come on guys get real, just enjoy yourself rather than sitting in your £40,000 motorhome wondering where the next 20p is coming from Well said Tracker. The last thing on my mind is following the 'brainwashed' into believing I am able to do anything to alter the planets natural cycle. Rupert the point you are missing is we know that our motorhome costs £XX000, but we don't pay £XXX000 for it knowing that. That is what is happening with the electricity, it is the principle of paying over the odds for something you may not have wanted in the first place that is annoying not the sum. Bas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corky 8 Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Ponder on this, WereTold there Has always been the same amount of water on the earth 20 million years ago as there is today ,if you think of all the Water being stored throughout the world be it as Pop, cordial, beer, spirits bottled water etc etc anything that is a fluid contains water (excluding some like Mercury ), why hasnt the sea levels dropped why arnt our rivers lower rather than flooding their banks as they have been doing , Do you think its because the worlds natural top up system is in operation this being the melting Ice fields in both artic regions , Could this not therfore be classed as man made melting of the icefields . Ohhhh me ED hurts 8-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Oh come on Dennis - even I cannot be accused of storing the entire polar ice caps in my freezer - not even by this crazy government surely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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