Electricity debate

[crinklystarfish]

OAL Moderator - 2008-02-08 12:18 PM Is there an environmental case for installing meters on hook-ups? ...

Indisputably. It seems to me a no-brainer that paying via metered supply would reduce consumption and if everyone reduces consumption just a little there could only be environmental benefit; especially with the current reliance upon fossil fuels. From the environmental perspective the case is in the bag. There’s no serious argument anymore that burning fossil fuel in the least worst scenario is exacerbating the warming problem.

Basil - 2008-02-09 10:46 AM When thinking in the 'normal' way that pitches are set up in the UK the above does appear to be a problem, however a couple of the sites in France we have stopped on over the years used plug in meters that were numbered and you just plugged the meter into the outlet then your lead into the meter (different plugs and sockets by the way) and when you left you returned your meter to the office when you went to pay. There is no additional effort required by the site owner/ manager with this system and seemed to work very well. Another advantage of this system is that you did not need to have a hook up for the duration of the stay, as we didn't we just topped up the day and night before we moved on. Bas

 

So why is it hard to bring about? 

Away from the environmental argument, given that there is clearly so much profligate usage of supplies on site (I didn’t realise, I only use CL type sites; if on a site at all) it seems to me perfectly reasonable that those who consume little or no power should not be forced into the position of subsidising the heavy consumers, particularly if they are simply wasteful.

[Corky 8]

Tracker - 2008-02-09 6:59 PM

 

Oh come on Dennis - even I cannot be accused of storing the entire polar ice caps in my freezer - not even by this crazy government surely?

 

8-) I,m only going on what J9 told ,Mel C, who told syd who then told buttercup and she told her mum who let on to Alf the butcher who then through no fault of his own told me, it was you . *-) Hold on I need to put some more coal on the fire, :-> I use slack then it cant be counted as solid fuel.

[Peter42]

I'm all for metered electric, especially after an experience I had this morning. I left a campsite at Conil de la Frontera, in southern Spain where the electricity is metered and the meter read by computer when you depart. According to their computer I had used no electricity during my 10 night stop and there was nothing to pay! I'm going back for a month next year!! :-D

[Syd]

Tracker - 2008-02-09 5:40 PM

 

Remember, it was only a few short years ago that the prophets of doom were telling us that we were heading for another mini ace age.

 

So what changed in such a short time scale, in planetary terms.

 

 

 

Seeing an oportunity to make money out of us mugs quickly changed that.

Thats why it was all changed from the world heating up to "Climate Change"

Heating up couldnt be substantiated when everywhere was blinking freezeing could it

[Mel E]

I'm totally against the Caravan Club putting meters on every site pitch. I'd much rather them spend their (limited) capital resources on improving existing sites or opening new ones.

 

The continental system seems to me to work well. If we pay a site fee including electric, someone comes along - usually on a bike - to unlock the distribution box, plug us in and re-lock it. If we are only staying a couple of nights, we are self sufficient and do not need to plug in, so we pay a lower site fee, and the man on his bike doesn't come or we are put on a non-wired pitch.

 

Lockable distibution boxes would surely not be that expensive to install?

 

Mel E

====

[Guest Tracker]

Yes Mel, quite so.

 

We should indeed pay a lower site fee if we don't want electric - and therein lies the crunch, because at present we don't pay a lower site fee for not using electric

 

This not only alienates those who don't want electric plus it makes some of those who don't really want it take it anyway, because they've been forced to pay for it, and those who do want it do use more because they are not being charged by the amount that they use.

 

A lose lose situation?

 

So meters or not, ways need to be found to encourage lower or non use of electric and my fear is that site fees will tend to go up for those who do and remain as is for those who don't, rather than those who don't paying less.

[Philman]

In all of the hundreds of campsites that I have stayed at around Europe, I have always been asked if I want electricity or not. The campsites which accept Camping Cheques or the ACSI Camping Card to do not charge extra as the site fees are discounted considerably and include upto 5kW per day. Other customers on those sites pay extra if they require EHU. Campsites not in either of those schemes only charge for the EHU if you want it.

 

Phil.

[bigal55]

Philman - 2008-02-10 2:07 PM

 

In all of the hundreds of campsites that I have stayed at around Europe, I have always been asked if I want electricity or not. The campsites which accept Camping Cheques or the ACSI Camping Card to do not charge extra as the site fees are discounted considerably and include upto 5kW per day. Other customers on those sites pay extra if they require EHU. Campsites not in either of those schemes only charge for the EHU if you want it.

 

Phil.

i,ve had the same experience, also most c,ls seem to have two pricing rates. is this another example of britain obeying a e.u. directive to the letter while the rest of europe does what suits themselves best

[colin]

Tracker - 2008-02-09 4:05 PM

 

colin - 2008-02-08 10:08 PM

 

What would worry me is if more sites start charging for showers, first you go to shower block to find you need some coins, or worse still you should have brought tokens from office which is now closed, then you have to work out which way the shower works, then you are half way throu showering when the money runs out. >:-( >:-( >:-(

 

But why should sites not charge for showers and let the users pay?

 

Surely this is the very principle we are all asking for?

 

Most vans have a shower these days and whilst it may not be spacious I still prefer my own warm clean environment to one where every mucky bugger this side of christendom purports to clean themselves and leave the floor cold wet and grubby in the process!

My main objection to paying for showers is the poorly implemented regimes for using them, but your arguement leads to 'what should we pay extra for', showers, dishwashing, icepacks, toilets, chemical toilet dumps

[Basil]

colin - 2008-02-10 9:42 PM

 

Tracker - 2008-02-09 4:05 PM

 

colin - 2008-02-08 10:08 PM

 

What would worry me is if more sites start charging for showers, first you go to shower block to find you need some coins, or worse still you should have brought tokens from office which is now closed, then you have to work out which way the shower works, then you are half way throu showering when the money runs out. >:-( >:-( >:-(

 

But why should sites not charge for showers and let the users pay?

 

Surely this is the very principle we are all asking for?

 

Most vans have a shower these days and whilst it may not be spacious I still prefer my own warm clean environment to one where every mucky bugger this side of christendom purports to clean themselves and leave the floor cold wet and grubby in the process!

My main objection to paying for showers is the poorly implemented regimes for using them, but your arguement leads to 'what should we pay extra for', showers, dishwashing, icepacks, toilets, chemical toilet dumps

 

Not everybody wants the same things from a site but surely if one uses a site it should have the essentials i.e. somewhere to park up with sufficient space for safety and somewhere to use toilets and washing facilities/ shower and not expect to pay extra for those facilities. I can see no other essential requirements so I would expect to pay for those as part of using a site, although we usually use the vans facilities (shower etc) . However what we are talking of here is facilities that are in no way essential and have become more in vogue and used by the 'neuvo' campers. I would in no way want to stop them from having those facilities if they want them but I do object to paying for something that is not essential and I have no need or desire for on a permanant basis whilst I am using a pitch. So the inclusive pitch charge for me is wrong and electricity should be metered.

 

Bas

[Clive]

You miss one important point re sites in the UK. Apart from a few exceptions like CL,s , camp sites are run as a business to make money.

They provide increasingly more comprehensive facilities for you to use. Even if you don,t use these facilities they still have to be paid for. THEY WANT YOU TO USE THEM. Even if you are totally independant and only require a parking space you are taking up a place that could be used by someone less fortunate than you who need the facilities you don,t want. So YOU ARE DEPRIVING THE SITE OWNER OF THEIR PROFIT.

 

Balanced against this is that we have spend ooodles of our cash after downsizing the house to be able to have a MH that makes us independant.

Part of our justification for getting the MH was no more hotel bills and limited camp sites as we are INDEPENDANT. (Why else would anyone contemplate a solar panel, generator or a fuel cell).

 

Somewhere between these two scenarios is reality.

 

But boys must have their toys!

 

C.

 

 

 

[Basil]

You make very valid points Clive, you have confirmed to me why we tend to use only minimalist CL's and do most of our camping abroad. UK sites have, in the main, lost our custom for the past 2 decades.

Camp sites may well want people to use the facilities but when the bubble bursts, as it has before, and those that demand all facilities move on to the next fad there will be an awful lot of unused pitches if the sites don't cater for a wider audience.

But yes I think you have hit the nail on the head as usual.

 

Bas

[bigal55]

yes, valid points clive, also once the site owners have put these facilities in the costs don.t stop.

 

public liability insurance, business rates increase, yearly gas & electrical inspections, etc etc like everything else in britain it,s expensive.

 

personally i think charging is the fairest way, but the cost of meters will need to be passed on.

 

slightly off thread, friends of ours have a 10 bedroom hotel, they need to take £15,000 before they make a profit,they don,t have a mortgage,this like the majority of campsites is seasonal.

running any business in britain is expensive, but tourist related are even more so due to the public being involved therefore some jobsworth will invent another set of health & safety, fire, hygiene so it keeps themselves in a job.

 

the real sufferers will be families who have to take holidays at set times

[Clive]

Off topic but as an aside, for many years my boss at work was married to a local school head mistress. He always took his holiday during school holidays. This meant that despite having two children of our own we were never allowed to take our holidays at the same time!

So potentially our children often missed a week or so of schooling.

No now though!!!!!

 

 

[Bald Eagle]

The key thing we are told we must consider is our environmental footprint, which most of the time is pretty big. Unless of course you consider the Chinese are opening a coal fired power station each week of the year.

 

I heard the other day that the savings made in our homes in one year by the purchase of just one saver bulb over the costs of an odrinary bulb is negated by the purchase in a supermarket of just one packet of vegetables produced in an overseas country.

 

Yes, we've all got a duty to avoid waste, leaving the lights and heating on in the van and going out is wasteful and unnecessary, but it all needs to be viewed in perspective.

[Clive]

When you consider the grand scheme of things what we do here makes not one iota of meaningfull difference. Don,t forget we ARE evolution. When distances to things we can see are measured in millions of light years we are but a mear drop in the ocean.

 

Its not carbon footprint that drives me, its reducing the size of my utilities bills!

[Vic]

Maybe I'm a bit naive here. I can agree wholeheartedly with meters, ergo, the more you use, the more you pay. Forgetting the ecological argument for a moment, if you are metered and are prepared to pay, then it follows that the ampage allowed must be increased to the demand of the user!! Further, any sort of meter must have a lock on it. After all, if your neighbour decides to wander off for the day, it would be quite easy to hook into his supply and have free power while he is away.

[poochy]

We used to have a boat in a marina and were obliged to use a hook up lead incorporated with a small waterproof meter.

 

You just told the marina office the meter reading when you turned up and when you left.

 

Presume somebody spot checked now and then.

 

Lead cost me £ 150 no cost whatsoever to marina.

 

Maybe this is the way to go. ( still got it somewhere )

 

Regards John

[Guest teemyob]

Hello all,

 

As already mentioned, on the continent you have a choice. Here you generaly do not. You pay for Electricity regardless. This for us makes campsites very expensive. Indeed we do not use the club sites as not only do we find them overpriced but also snobby and regimented. In France for examples in shoulder season we tend to pay around 10-15 Euros a night with no electric. Even in high season under 30 Euros a night is the highest even with Electric.

 

We have

 

Threee 110ah Batteries

Twoo Solar Panels

Gas ONLY Heating

Gas Kettle

 

Why should I pay for those who have hook-up and often go our all day leaving electric heating on.

 

Trev

[XTRAVELLER]

STAYED ON A CAMPSITE ON THE ISLE OF MAN TWO YEARS AGO,AFTER 3 DAYS OF RAIN NO REAL CHARGE OFF SOLAR PANELS SO ASKED CAMPSITE OWNER FOR ELECTRIC ,SHE RAN ME AN EXTENSION LEAD OUT OF THE HOUSE ON A BIG REEL AND ASKED US TO PUT REEL IN VAN SO IT DIDNT GET WET!

[BGD]

On "proper" sites in Spain (we haven't stayed on too many as we prefer to wild camp over here most of the time) so far as I can recall, we have always been asked at checkin if we want mains electric hookup or not - if we do the price is about 2 or 3 euros more per night.

 

I.E., over here you have the choice.

 

Although as none of the pitches seem to be on separate meters, I don't know how the office knows whether you've hooked up or not once you've paid at Reception and driven onto site and picked a pitch.

 

Normally I have to say "yes" to hookup when we do stay overnight, solely so that the Sparkle can use her 480,0000 kilowatt hairdryer in "Martin" our Old Dog motorhome, rather than use it in the in the shower block from whence she has just emerged after 7.5 hours of ablutions.........

 

but at least she gets a bottle of chilled Semi-Sec Cava (€1.69) out of the fridge for me before commencing the 2 hour nuclear holocaust of hot-air mane-drying and (if I'm lucky, without any garments tarnishing the natural beauty of the upper portions of the Sparkle), so that's absolutely and totally and superbly and wonderfully OK with me.

 

2 euros. Fantastic investment.

 

:-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D

 

 

 

 

 

 

[djchapple]

Whilst at the NEC on a stand I got talking to a representative if the new RCN chain of French campsites. he stated that the "latest" thinking with some of the larger chains is to introduce a simple rechargeable card to the campers so that they can pay for everything on site with the card. he certainly meant pay for everything as they envisaged payments for showers, toilet emptying, games/TV rooms and anything else they could lay a charge on.

 

This is certainly a retrograde step but is the natural consequence of large money grabbing companies entering the camping market.

 

We also found out that another large chain is buying up ex-municipal sites to upgrade them and, naturally, greatly increase the charges.

[Gregory]

Tracker - 2008-02-09 4:05 PM

 

colin - 2008-02-08 10:08 PM

 

What would worry me is if more sites start charging for showers, first you go to shower block to find you need some coins, or worse still you should have brought tokens from office which is now closed, then you have to work out which way the shower works, then you are half way throu showering when the money runs out. >:-( >:-( >:-(

 

But why should sites not charge for showers and let the users pay?

 

Surely this is the very principle we are all asking for?

 

Most vans have a shower these days and whilst it may not be spacious I still prefer my own warm clean environment to one where every mucky bugger this side of christendom purports to clean themselves and leave the floor cold wet and grubby in the process!

Some of us don't have have the option of not using site showers and do actually manage to wash ourselves and even clean the shower area when we're done.

 

I for one don't want to see the return of slot meters at showers but I do agree pitches should be individually metered.

 

Cheers,

 

Greg

[chris]

Surely in this "green aware" era the big club sites should be promoting non-electric usage to contribute to the green movement. It is ludicrous that we are forced to pay for electric when we do not require it especially as they will not allow us to park on the grass!

chris

[yeti]

I have stayed on a lot of sites in Europe which have hook ups metered in a locked case. Also when refused offer of a hook up discounts have been given.

My worst experience was at Abbey Wood one October,it was freezing. We had a 500W convector to keep the van just comfortable,when we were in it.

The trips kept jumping out,the cause? A group of tuggers with the lastest wizz bang vans-all electric. Two in particular had teenage girls who had the heating on full bore,hairdryers and in one van television AND stereo.

I also overheard one caravanner complaining that they couldn't use their electric cooker because the power kept going off.Der it didn't occour that it happened everytime he switched it on. He was a real pain,he turned to me for some kind of support,I just said I was having problems getting the nebuliser going exit stage left somewhat embarrased to give the girls a barracking!!

If these major clubs blow their trumpets about being green and having green credentials,they should educate their members in good stewardship of resources. I find people who were tent campers are better at conservation that the nouveau riche caravanner (and some motohomers)!!!