Electricity debate

[michele]

RupertGS - 2008-03-22 10:27 PM

This site is being discussed on Motorhome Facts again. Basil comes out well!

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-42430.html

And here as well!

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-41150.html

We are so lucky to have so much to discuss that we on here dont get into slagging off the other forums or its members .I am sure Eddie got his points over and others also without the need for it to get nasty .Just remember folks you cant see each others faces so sometimes things are not quite what they seem .As for the electric is £35 per night to much ? thought so! !!!!! you see its not the amount its the principle of it some people just dont want it . Whilst that does not include my family I still think that people have the right not to be forced irrelevant to if its £2 £50 or £38 .so £12 makes it ok then is what we are saying well it does for me but not others irrelevant to what the campsite has on offer .I think we are still missing the point we in England should be able in the year 2008 to pull up and park overnight or stay just like any other camper with or without electricity and be charged accordingly for what we use be it electric or no electric .The campsite owner has to make money otherwise it would not be worth his while to be in business but in order to keep people happy why can there not be a set charge for the people whom dont want or need electricity and not an attitude of ,well its cheap enough anyway or its only £2 them £2's add up especially if you are away for months on end .This is not intended to be nasty just my opinion look at my face I am smiling can't you all see. ;-)

[Tomo3090]

Slightly off topic in that it isn't about leccy, but charging in general.

 

Why do sites charge more in the summer/ If it costs a tenner to park in December, (and use the electric!), why does it cost 15-20 pounds to stay in July/August? The charges must be based on running without loss in the first place, so why the increase. I can appreciate that profit needs to be made to invest in things but if club sites, are run for the members then a better pricing structure needs putting into place all round, and that could include electricity.

 

Just for interest, how does one propose something like this for inclusion at an AGM at one of the clubs?

[Mike Chapman]

Tomo3090 - 2008-03-24 7:20 PM

 

 

Why do sites charge more in the summer/ If it costs a tenner to park in December, (and use the electric!), why does it cost 15-20 pounds to stay in July/August? The charges must be based on running without loss in the first place, so why the increase. I can appreciate that profit needs to be made to invest in things but if club sites, are run for the members then a better pricing structure needs putting into place all round, and that could include electricity.

 

?

 

One reason the CC give is that many of the sites employ extra wardens during the busy summer months so costs are increased.

 

Why do different sites with similar overheads and costs charge different amounts for the same weeks?

 

This is probably because they charge what they can get away with, a familiar system throughout the leisure industry. Why does a cottage in Cornwall cost £150 a week to hire in March and £350 in August? I suppose it is the simple economics of Supply and Demand determining Price.

 

Regards,

 

Mike

[eddievanbitz]

Basil - 2008-03-20 10:06 PM

 

As you have side stepped the question I ask again why do they not charge a deposit abroad and also I use several marinas and have never been asked for a deposit for the meter on one of them?

You will surely have the details of the persons using your site, surely you would not allow anyone to leave your site without paying so you would retrieve the meter then would you not?

Bas

 

Because some people would loose or steal them, along with the multitude of other things that get stolen aroung the campsite.

 

You are asking me to spend circa £100 per unit, we have a total of 65 hook up points that is £6,500 plus add a few spares, and put a whole new level of work in place, for what? The site is busy, well priced and very highly recommended by most of our customers.

 

Sorry, I stick with my original arguement, the majority of our customers want hook up!

 

I would agree that had the re-sale of electricty laws not been changed we would probably offer with or without pitches, but we simply decided that we would make electricity available on all pitches and include it in the basic price.

 

Thanks to the lady that thinks that I a being jumped on from a very great height, :-D Don't worry I just think that it is like being pecked to death, by a budgie! I don't hide behind knick names or anything else. I tell the truth and the majority of people agree with me, so I dont loose any sleep.

[Basil]

Sorry Eddie but you still haven't answered the question of why they do not charge a deposit abroad, are you suggesting that the UK campers are more dishonest than those abroad?

 

Bas

[holy1hobby]

Anyone who avoids Eddies site is missing out on a realy super site and at £13 including leeky its very cheap. On the subject of "if I am paying for it I will use it", a friend of mine had that attitude and managed to damage his trauma heater and cause condensation problems in the van.

 

John

[eddievanbitz]

Not everyone wants electric hook up! Many many decent people like to camp and do not use campsites, preferring to use CL's or wild camp. However, our campsite it a modern purpose built site, about two miles from the County town of Somerset. Consequently the majority of our guests want a site that has all modern facilities.

 

If my site was on Dartmoor, we would not have installed hook up at all and keep everything to a bare minimum, as a remote barren area would attract a customer that would be looking for something more fundamental than a modern site in a town.

 

This seems to be your problem Basil, you seem to think that everything should be tailored to suit you. There will be sites out there with pricing policies that you disagree with. There will be sites that you will think are fantastic. Choose the ones that suit your preferred lifestyle and leave the ones that don't suit be.

 

I have never been to Butlins at Minehead. It has camping for caravans and motorhomes as well as chalets. I am sure if I had a limited budget and children to cater for, it would be a godsend. By your argument you should be allowed to camp there and not pay for this or not pay for that.

 

How would you work out what you would want? Pay for the dodgems but knock of the money for the Ferris wheel because you scared of heights?

 

Live and let live, don't use campsites that offer things you don't want but don't spoil it for those that do.

 

I understood your repeated question perfectly, and I understand exactly where you are trying to push me. I am not stupid. The reality of it is that we would have to charge for the meters, because the would be stolen and damaged from time to time, and (having just checked the last invoice) at £105.72 each that would be unacceptable, just to satisfy a very small percentage of the market.

 

Not every one is dishonest? I am not sure why you have never been asked to pay for a meter abroad? perhaps you have an honest face? who knows, perhaps you are making it up? I don’t know you, you could be lying you could have been lucky? I still think, that I have far more respect for posters who have the guts to post their identity that shadowy figures with completely empty profiles.

 

I work on the basis that in life there are good and bad. A forum like this is a good cross section of society. Some are here for the information they can share or indeed learn themselves. Some lurk, reading, and never contributing. Some read when they have time and contribute when they have something useful and pertinent to say. Some jump in to every thread, with out any regard for anyone else's opinion, and argue for the sake of argument, irrespective of how relevant, balanced for fair their argument is .

 

Some this and think that it is intimidating, and it deters them from posting themselves for fear or ridicule, others read it a laugh at them for the fools they are, and carry on with their lives.

 

The reason that some get away with their ravings is that the moderation on the site is rubbish and this is reflected in the sites "position" in the rankings as the number two site based on content and unique visitors. I prefer to take part in debate that is on the foremost and undoubted most influential web site, than a site that is an “also ran”

 

I know that some people think that MotorhomeFacts membership policy of Ten pounds a year ruffled a few peoples feathers, but it is the site that the trade sit up and listen to.

 

We get pestered by O&A Live staff, attempting to flog us (the trade) editorial and advertising space. This is a free for all, open to the highest bidders, where we the posters, are the commodity Whereas Motorhome Facts is run by a motorhomers, by motorhomers for motorhomers. The debate is, in the main more reasoned and moderated to everyone can put their opinion without fear of ridicule.

 

Just a thought, for the record, the closest place to Cornish Farm, to legally spend a night is Taunton Deane services. Last time we checked £17 with a breakfast voucher or £14.00 without a breakfast. Basil you will be delighted that you are not forced to plug in the electricity hook up, because there isn’t any, nor showers or grey or black water disposal, actually there is no fresh water either.

 

If you feel happy boycotting my site, paying more money and getting absolutely nothing other than somewhere to park overnight, to make a point that you don’t like having electricity included in the price! Go for it! You will understand if I don’t loose any sleep though, won’t you? (Price checked 24th March 2008)

 

 

 

[Guest Tracker]

As I see it Cornish Farm is a good site at a sensible price.

 

I don't use electric and I don't use the showers or toilets either so can I pay £4 less please Eddie!

 

I'll even cut the grass round my pitch for a £6 discount!

 

Where does it end?

 

£12 for a good site overnight is not unreasonable even for types like us who do not even carry a mains lead.

 

I've not stayed there but I would if I needed a site in the area.

 

I don't see how sniping at Eddie is going to help the situation change.

 

It is HIS site, HIS business venture and HIS commercial decision and, assuming he is happy with the t/o and profit, he does not have to justify it to anyone - not even his accountant!

 

Those amongst us not happy about paying £12 a night every night (including me) are free to camp elsewhere because until either the legal issues become more clear or the market leaders (the main clubs) find a way of either accommodating non electric users or charging only for power used things are not gonna change.

 

And even if things do change the electricity infrastructure still remains to be installed and maintained at some cost to the site owner who has only one way to recoup these costs - site fees.

 

I would imagine that when meters do become commonplace the electricity consumption might well drop to such a level that it may make their use possibly uneconomic as far as charging for the actual power consumed at a non profit unit rate?

 

Maybe the law should be changed to allow touring site owners to charge more per unit used to enable their costs to be recouped and those who do not want electric may then be allowed not to pay for it.

 

We are after all only talking short term use here and not involving a huge cost per customer and it would cut consumption and allow fairness to return.

 

That said there are still some sites that do offer a discount for not using electric hook ups but that again is their own commercial decision.

 

So rather than castigating Eddie why not have a go at the government?

 

[eddievanbitz]

Thanks Rich good post and good points made.

 

Cheers

 

Eddie

[libby]

Meters please

 

LB

[libby]

Meters please

 

LB

[fred grant]

ello ello my cornish farm biddies.

 

now try this one when u is next out and about camping.

 

book your normal pitch including electric.

 

but eres the twist, dont plug in with your orange lead me ansums, or better still leave your lead behind at home.

 

after 24 hours, how do you feel my luvvers??

 

A) Ripped off - paid fer it so should av it?

B) Stupid - for forgettin to take yer lead?

C) p*ssed off - everyone else is using lots of watts?

D) Content - us enjoys life to the full?

E) Happy - no cares in the world, want to enjoy camping?

F) uses twice the water in the shower to make up for it?

G) insist on a discount for the next visit?

H) ban the warden from the next lanzorotti sites conference?

I) nick one of the sites ornaments as a souvenir?

 

if you answered E or H my biddies you is now due a free sitenite voucher

 

if you answered any other then u as won a weeks stay at princetown holiday park in devon by the sea. Sorry freds orchard is full so no alternative prize is given.

 

fossilizefred

 

 

 

[livewire]

eddievanbitz - 2008-03-25 9:33 AM

 

Basil - 2008-03-20 10:06 PM

 

As you have side stepped the question I ask again why do they not charge a deposit abroad and also I use several marinas and have never been asked for a deposit for the meter on one of them?

You will surely have the details of the persons using your site, surely you would not allow anyone to leave your site without paying so you would retrieve the meter then would you not?

Bas

 

Because some people would loose or steal them, along with the multitude of other things that get stolen aroung the campsite.

 

You are asking me to spend circa £100 per unit, we have a total of 65 hook up points that is £6,500 plus add a few spares, and put a whole new level of work in place, for what? The site is busy, well priced and very highly recommended by most of our customers.

 

Sorry, I stick with my original arguement, the majority of our customers want hook up!

 

I would agree that had the re-sale of electricty laws not been changed we would probably offer with or without pitches, but we simply decided that we would make electricity available on all pitches and include it in the basic price.

 

Thanks to the lady that thinks that I a being jumped on from a very great height, :-D Don't worry I just think that it is like being pecked to death, by a budgie! I don't hide behind knick names or anything else. I tell the truth and the majority of people agree with me, so I dont loose any sleep.

 

When in france last, we rarely stopped more than one night on a site. You paid in the morning and declared whether you used the hook-up. The you paid accordingly. Some sites you had to put a peposit on a circuit breaker for the particular current rating you wanted.

 

This system seemed to work well and there is no reason it can't work here. You pay for the infrastructure as well as the electricty.

 

However, as is often the case when you compare France with the UK, there aways seem less of a 'bleed them dry' attitude to customers.

 

A site I use when going to Cornwall charges £3.50 a day for hook-up. Take it or leave. Fine. I often(though not always) use a solar panel. Otherwise it would cost a further £49 over 2 weeks.

 

Motorhomes are designed to be self sufficient. They simply do not need a hook-up unless stopping for more than a few days.

[rowley]

I stayed on a CL recently that was minimal facilities. It was £9 per night which I understood included electrics. In actual fact the electrical supply was via meters. Although I do not consume a lot of power I did seem to have to put an awful lot of money in the meter. It would have been cheaper to have stayed on Eddies, all singing, all dancing site.

 

I would have thought that the overcharging via meters is what the misguided legislation was supposed to stop.

[Brian Kirby]

I really think most of this discussion misses the crucial point.  It is not the electricity that costs the money, it is providing, maintaining, and testing, the installations.  The cost of underground cables, supply pillars, circuit distribution boards, and labour for trenching, forming pillar bases, subsequent reinstatement, plus periodic safety tests (for which certificates are issued), and replacement of worn or damaged parts is a substantial capital commitment with continuing revenue costs.  Once that commitment has been made it must be recovered, or the site will go bankrupt.  Similar arguments are, from time to time, advanced with regard to toilet blocks and showers.  We have washrooms/toilets on our vans, which we use, so why should we pay for sites that provide these?  Answer: you don't have to.  You can go elsewhere where neither electrical hook ups, nor toilet blocks, are available.  However, once they are provided, generally in response to public demand, there is a commercial imperative to recover the cost. 

Back to the specifics, if your electrical consumption were metered, where would you expect the costs of the distribution system to be recovered?  Under UK legislation, as explained above, it may not be charged as part of the cost of electricity consumed.  To be able to charge for electricity consumed, the consumption would have to be metered.  The meters would have to be checked periodically for accuracy, and would have to be installed somewhere, both adding to cost. 

It seems perfectly reasonable, and legal, to charge for the hook up as a supplement provided the electricity itself is either supplied free, or metered.  However, far simpler than installing meters would be to restrict the supply amperage to, say 6A, which is quite sufficient for battery charging, lighting, and fans/pumps etc.  Those with electric underfloor heating, electric hobs, fan heaters, etc would be disappointed, but these "we've paid for it so we'll have it" abuses, are in part responsible for the protective charges made for a hook up in UK, where a 16A supply has become the norm.  In Europe, as ever, things are different, and supplies limited to 5/6A are normal, with some down to 2/3A.  At these ratings, usually charged at around 2.5-3.5 Euros per night, normal life is quite possible.  You just have to consume a bit more of your own gas for heating and cooking.  :-)

However, and I kid you not, even at these prices I have seen furtive connecting of electrical appliances under cover of darkness - and experienced the subsequent tripping of supplies by users of hairdryers, electric kettles, and motorhomes/caravans that have made early morning departures!  So, do people steal electricity from campsites?  Yes, sadly some do.  Eddie has a very valid point.  To protect themselves from the thieves, some site operators lock the connection into the supply pillar, meaning you have to round up the staff to release your hook-up when you want to leave.  Not convenient.

The superficially fairest arrangements seem to be in Germany, where plug in circuit breakers or a small, pillar mounted, digital meter seem commonplace.  You are either offered a choice of supply capacity in Amps, and charged accordingly, or your supply is metered.  The appropriate plug in breaker is then inserted into the pillar and your hook up locked in with it, or the meter is read when you arrive, the pillar door locked to prevent you switching to the adjoining meter, and the meter re-read before you leave.  The drawback is the extended faffing around on arrival and departure while people wander around the sites with keys, breakers and notebooks and calculate to cost of current consumed.  With metering, you seem, generally, to pay for the connection as a "standing charge" plus the juice used, or where un-metered, just a flat charge for the breaker rating you have selected. 

Nevertheless, just paying around 3 Euros per night for a 6A supply you can plug in and remove at will is far quicker and simpler so, on balance, I prefer that arrangement.  My favoured remedy would be for UK sites to reduce the amperage to 6A, charge realistically for providing the facility, and then provide the electricity "free". 

However, you'll never actually know which cost is apportioned where by the site operator, will you, unless you can also inspect his books?  I somehow get the impression one or two on here would also like to do that, but I'm sure most of us would far sooner just pay for the hook up, and then get on with our lives.  Eddie's approach to charging is pretty much "industry standard" in the UK, so it is unreasonable to vilify him as has been done.  He has to decide how he can run his site while keeping the majority happy, without incurring time wasting procedures that cost all parties money on the one hand, or risking legal sanctions on the other.  His charging policy is commendably clear and "up front", so give the guy a break!

[eddievanbitz]

Thank you Brian for a balanced and interesting post. There are anumber of hidden costs running a site that still amaze us!

 

cheers

 

Eddie

[rowley]

I agree with all of that Brian.

[fjmike]

Reading through this debate made me ponder a few questions (sorry if it wanders off the original thread)

 

1. If eddie can run a high spec campsite (I have stayed and it is a real good un') and charge £12.00 a night, make a profit after paying out all the running costs such as maintenance, site wardens etc. Then how come for a similar spec. site both the main clubs charge double thatamount and charge an annual fee as well???

 

2.Does providing electric mean that peeps try and "get their moneys worth" and use as much electric as possible?

 

3. Would there be any call for seperate electrical supplys ie: high usage (10amps +) and low usage (4amps). I know that this system is used a lot on the continent and I am asuming (maybe wrongly) that altering the electric supply is not a big job.

 

4.Why does eddie have to have a go at other forums when it has no bearing on the topic discussed, most people have heard all the arguements before and have made their minds up acordingly. In fact someone on MHF summed it up very well with a pub analogy, you get used to your local but occasionaly you sup somewhere else

 

5.We can all find fault but its a lot better if sometimes we agree to disagree and unite to get a fairer deal for all motorhome users

 

6. Finally getting back to the original posted by the OAL mod. No I don't think there is any case for putting meters as this will only push up prices, so we all loose

[ROON]

Before I bought my motor home I used sites in a friend's caravan and believe me - although you say above that no profit is to be made on electricity by the site owner - for 50p we got about half hour's electricity. .... We ended up FREEZING to death .... I wouldn't go onto a site with meters because, although I find wildcamping brilliant, when on a site it is surprising how convenient being able to use the electricity is ... not panicking in case my leisure battery takes a nose dive.

 

Tracker, about a reduction for cutting the grass, I found myself wanting to plant some primroses round my site last week but didn't know what the owner would think of it!!!! Any owners please let me know. Roon (aka Joy)

[Guest Tracker]

ROON - 2008-03-31 1:16 PM

 

Before I bought my motor home I used sites in a friend's caravan and believe me - although you say above that no profit is to be made on electricity by the site owner - for 50p we got about half hour's electricity. .... We ended up FREEZING to death .... I wouldn't go onto a site with meters because, although I find wildcamping brilliant, when on a site it is surprising how convenient being able to use the electricity is ... not panicking in case my leisure battery takes a nose dive.

 

Kinda makes the argument for meters in a way dunnit!

 

That way people will only use what they really need and not waste power by heating up awnings etc. and having their homes on wheels excessively heated once it is no longer free?

 

The environmentalists would have us believe that climate change can be stopped by better use of energy and what better place to start than with several thousand caravan (and motor caravan - so as not to seem biased) awnings!

[livewire]

Brian Kirby - 2008-03-27 11:57 AM

I really think most of this discussion misses the crucial point.  It is not the electricity that costs the money, it is providing, maintaining, and testing, the installations.  The cost of underground cables, supply pillars, circuit distribution boards, and labour for trenching, forming pillar bases, subsequent reinstatement, plus periodic safety tests (for which certificates are issued), and replacement of worn or damaged parts is a substantial capital commitment with continuing revenue costs.  Once that commitment has been made it must be recovered, or the site will go bankrupt.  Similar arguments are, from time to time, advanced with regard to toilet blocks and showers.  We have washrooms/toilets on our vans, which we use, so why should we pay for sites that provide these?  Answer: you don't have to.  You can go elsewhere where neither electrical hook ups, nor toilet blocks, are available.  However, once they are provided, generally in response to public demand, there is a commercial imperative to recover the cost. 

Back to the specifics, if your electrical consumption were metered, where would you expect the costs of the distribution system to be recovered?  Under UK legislation, as explained above, it may not be charged as part of the cost of electricity consumed.  To be able to charge for electricity consumed, the consumption would have to be metered.  The meters would have to be checked periodically for accuracy, and would have to be installed somewhere, both adding to cost. 

It seems perfectly reasonable, and legal, to charge for the hook up as a supplement provided the electricity itself is either supplied free, or metered.  However, far simpler than installing meters would be to restrict the supply amperage to, say 6A, which is quite sufficient for battery charging, lighting, and fans/pumps etc.  Those with electric underfloor heating, electric hobs, fan heaters, etc would be disappointed, but these "we've paid for it so we'll have it" abuses, are in part responsible for the protective charges made for a hook up in UK, where a 16A supply has become the norm.  In Europe, as ever, things are different, and supplies limited to 5/6A are normal, with some down to 2/3A.  At these ratings, usually charged at around 2.5-3.5 Euros per night, normal life is quite possible.  You just have to consume a bit more of your own gas for heating and cooking.  :-)

However, and I kid you not, even at these prices I have seen furtive connecting of electrical appliances under cover of darkness - and experienced the subsequent tripping of supplies by users of hairdryers, electric kettles, and motorhomes/caravans that have made early morning departures!  So, do people steal electricity from campsites?  Yes, sadly some do.  Eddie has a very valid point.  To protect themselves from the thieves, some site operators lock the connection into the supply pillar, meaning you have to round up the staff to release your hook-up when you want to leave.  Not convenient.

The superficially fairest arrangements seem to be in Germany, where plug in circuit breakers or a small, pillar mounted, digital meter seem commonplace.  You are either offered a choice of supply capacity in Amps, and charged accordingly, or your supply is metered.  The appropriate plug in breaker is then inserted into the pillar and your hook up locked in with it, or the meter is read when you arrive, the pillar door locked to prevent you switching to the adjoining meter, and the meter re-read before you leave.  The drawback is the extended faffing around on arrival and departure while people wander around the sites with keys, breakers and notebooks and calculate to cost of current consumed.  With metering, you seem, generally, to pay for the connection as a "standing charge" plus the juice used, or where un-metered, just a flat charge for the breaker rating you have selected. 

Nevertheless, just paying around 3 Euros per night for a 6A supply you can plug in and remove at will is far quicker and simpler so, on balance, I prefer that arrangement.  My favoured remedy would be for UK sites to reduce the amperage to 6A, charge realistically for providing the facility, and then provide the electricity "free". 

However, you'll never actually know which cost is apportioned where by the site operator, will you, unless you can also inspect his books?  I somehow get the impression one or two on here would also like to do that, but I'm sure most of us would far sooner just pay for the hook up, and then get on with our lives.  Eddie's approach to charging is pretty much "industry standard" in the UK, so it is unreasonable to vilify him as has been done.  He has to decide how he can run his site while keeping the majority happy, without incurring time wasting procedures that cost all parties money on the one hand, or risking legal sanctions on the other.  His charging policy is commendably clear and "up front", so give the guy a break!

Does Brian get paid per word?

[eddievanbitz]

If he was he'd be worth every penny in my opinion! :-D

 

On a serious note, we will never please every one, so we try (very hard) to please the majority and leave the extremes of both ends to please themselves and make up their own minds.

 

In an ideal world we would all just "borrow" each others gardens and drives so we wouldn't need campsites at all!

 

Now there's an idea!

[colin weston]

Brian Kirby

You take as much space as you like. I tend to go into detail as well.

This is not a black-and-white situation.

When I go away in the winter I do want a hook-up as I don't have gas heating. I have the choice of diesel or electricity to heat the water/space heating system (Eberspacher). Therefore, I use a reasonable amount of electricity and don't begrudge the charge. However, like most old gits who have known hard times, I never waste anything. It was how I was brought up.

However, I would still like the choice of whether or not I pay for electric on a pitch.

I can't remember going on a site in France or elsewhere on the Continent where I havn't been asked whether or not I want electricity and usually, how many amps? It seems to work OK abroad or don't they have these various regulatory bodies?

 

PS livewire

I'll connect you to the mains supply (16 amp) if we have any more criticism!

[Playtime]

As someone who is new to this motorcaravan m'larky, I'm probably not best placed to speak out on the matter, however sometimes being an 'outsider' means things are viewed from a all together different angle. So here goes, if you go to a pub and by a pint you still pay the same price for the beer whether you use the loo or not. Perhaps this is a little simplistic and clearly the cost of spending a 'penny' somewhat different to electricity, however the principle is still the same, a cost will be inherent in both. Just playing devils advocate. I'll get my coat.

[MelvynT]

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with paying for what you use by meter, if the charges are set fairly.

We once stayed at a flat that ate 50pences, the only coin it would take, at about 15 times the normal charge rate.8o|

Now we're motorhoming, that will not happen again.

The charge needs to reflect the unit cost, the meter cost, the installation cost and the maintenance cost. ;-)

Of course if there's no individual meter, then there's a lower cost for installation and maintenance.:-)

So as the debate started, put individual meters on and potentially pay more, or fixed charge? (?)

Potentially paying more will keep usage down in a manner that fixed charging will not.