Leisure batteries -- again!

[ChrisD]

Evening everyone

 

I have to replace my two year old leisure battery.

I'm convinced that this is a vehicle battery with a leisure label stuck on.

I have nurtured it, no over use, no huge loads and regularly charged it.

But it seems to now have very limited capacity.

 

Can anyone point me in the direction of a good brand, I have heard Varta are

good. And AGM technology?. I have a 100w solar panel and like to spend time without EHU.

 

Any suggestions gratefully received

 

Chris

[Guest mikethe bike]

Banner

[bigrab1888]

Definitely Banner

[Cliffy]

I have two 110 ahr Trust Orange batteries, one two years old one four years old. They hide under the settee and just do what they do. When one decides to give up the ghost I pay out £79 and fit another one. The solarpanel looks fter the leisure batteties and they in turn look after the engine battery. I just check the electrolyte levels once a year and check the charge daily when in use. Almost fit and forget. I think the majority of complaints about batteties is a result of bad set up not bad batteries. I will of course stand to be corrected.

[ChrisD]

Cliffy

we will all stand to be corrected no matter our opinions right or wrong. And I thank you for

your reply as I do for the others prior to yours.

 

You have all given me the direction I needed. My sincere thanks.

 

Can you still buy Eveready batteries?

 

Chris

[Full-timer]

After reading a series of posts from A&N Caravans regarding batteries and Solar panels I decided to try a Varta Silver Dynamic 100AH (£85 Delivered) to replace my two year old 130 AH Elecsol which was dying big time, this battery cost £320 after much shopping around (I could write a novella about this battery).

I have only had the Varta two months but it appears to be performing faultlessly. Charges twice as quickly as an AGM battery, No gassing and of course cheap. I only run LED lights and a 12Volt Fridge with a 180watt solar panel though and never go on hook up. The Elecsol was really well looked after kept fully charged etc I understand Elecsol have gone out of business which I can understand, others may not have had problems with Elecsol.

Early days for the Varta but I will post a further update after six months

 

Regards

Peter

 

[aandncaravan]

Chris, a modern Starter Battery is not necessarily a poor base for a Habitation battery.

If you were Exide and sold Millions and millions of Starter batteries every year, but only a few hundred thousand Leisure batteries, where would you put your R & D?

Battery technology has moved forward massively in the last three years, all because of 'Under Bonnet' demand like never before. I remember buying a new battery for my Citroen BX Diesel (it was a very long time ago) and finding it was nearly 25% more powerful than the old battery. It had nearly 240 cranking amps!! My 'modern' Xsara Picasso has a Starter battery capable of 780 cranking amps yet is smaller than the BX Diesel battery of long ago.

 

A good Varta 100Ah battery has over 900 cranking amps, that shows just how far we have come since I put my first Leisure battery (ok, so it was the tired old starter battery I took out of the BX) in my very preloved (unloved?) Bailey Maru.

 

The modern starter battery is a completely different animal. The Starter battery in an Audi A6 is only 100Ah but has to cope with a 2.8 V6 Diesel, Air con, Heated Seats, 5 speed Wiper Motors, Heated Mirrors, heated windscreen and Rear window, Headlights powerful enough to rival the South Stacks Lighthouse, 124 LED daytime running lights, Sat Nav, reversing Camera, Fog Lights brighter than a Theatres Light Board, a 280watt Stereo, Electric Fuel pump, etc.

Worse still for the poor battery, it has to cope with all this when the engine cuts out after the 'Stop/Start' activates at Traffic Lights. The Aircon doesn't stop, the wipers don't park, your bottom doesn't get cold, the lights don't switch off, everything keeps sucking life out of the poor battery but without any Alternator help!!

The modern car battery has to be incredibly strong and tough. It has to be able to discharge quite low and be capable of taking a hefty charge from the Alternator when the engine restarts.

 

My poor old 280amp Citroen BX battery that I thought was so wonderful back then would not have stood a chance. It would die in weeks.

Quality Starter batteries have to be 'all singing all dancing' creatures, they can now discharge low without damage and have a long life. So a quality Starter battery will now outperform a leisure battery in the same price bracket, in every area.

 

Back when I had my BX/Baily outfit I had to make the battery last a week but that was not hard. Usage was very different, I only had one light bulb and a 'modern' fluorescent tube.

Water pump was foot operated and that was it. No TV, no satellite, no mains EHU. Nothing.

Even so a Starter battery was not up to the job and Leisure batteries were constructed differently with fatter plates.

 

How different is usage now? We have Motorhomes with 2 x TV's (honestly, I worked on one last week and one of them was 28"!!), Sat box, 6,987 Halogen Spotlights, an Awning light that lights up the next Caravan site across the road, Stereo, powerpoints for the X box, Computer, and iPad. An Inverter etc.

A modern Motorhome draws nearly as power as it takes to Start a Car!!

 

So doesn't logic suggest our current usage dictates we need a more 'Starter' like battery??

Ok so a rather extreme example, (your Motorhome has probably only got 1,765 lights and you have probably converted them to LED's?) but you get the point.

 

Not only has Motorhome power consumption gone up to Starter Battery levels but good Starter batteries have improved by a factor of about 4 since those days of the eighties.

And finally, yes nearly finished (who said thank goodness?) a starter battery is much, much better value. Why? Exide sell millions of the Starter things, but only a hundred thousand Leisure batteries, so which is going to benefit from the economies of scale?

 

So please don't be put off by a quality Starter battery, and I don't mean one of those budget things that still have the battery constructed the way that Oldham Batteries did it in the 1960's.

 

Please don't get AGM batteries. No Motorhomes currently in production have a battery charger optimised for AGM batteries. You won't get the best out of it, it will cost a lot of money and it will expire long before you have a right to expect. The Banner Batteries website warns against retro fitting AGM batteries to Motorhomes that did not have them fitted as original equipment.

Additionally few Motorhomes have an Alternator able to outputh the 14.7v that an AGM likes.

 

Read more about battery technology on our web site, it is not sales based as we don't sell batteries : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/battery-technology.php

 

I wonder what happened to that Baily Maru, I used to like reading the Beano by that one light bulb. Life was so simple but we ..............

 

 

[ChrisD]

Thanks AAcaravans. Very interesting post

[keninpalamos]

Get yourself a Sterling BB1250 and 2x 6v Trojan traction batteries 250amp hr. I've had mine 6 years, but has cost me a fortune in distilled water! :D

[rupert123]

Full-timer - 2015-08-12 6:49 PM

 

After reading a series of posts from A&N Caravans regarding batteries and Solar panels I decided to try a Varta Silver Dynamic 100AH (£85 Delivered) to replace my two year old 130 AH Elecsol which was dying big time, this battery cost £320 after much shopping around (I could write a novella about this battery).

I have only had the Varta two months but it appears to be performing faultlessly. Charges twice as quickly as an AGM battery, No gassing and of course cheap. I only run LED lights and a 12Volt Fridge with a 180watt solar panel though and never go on hook up. The Elecsol was really well looked after kept fully charged etc I understand Elecsol have gone out of business which I can understand, others may not have had problems with Elecsol.

Early days for the Varta but I will post a further update after six months

 

Regards

Peter

I to have one of these bought a year ago. It has performed without fault and has a three year warranty anyway. I can easily run three nights without hook-up and only have one leisure battery, although do not run a tv.

[Derek Uzzell]

aandncaravan - 2015-08-12 10:36 PM

 

Chris, a modern Starter Battery is not necessarily a poor base for a Habitation battery...

 

 

Allan

 

Your website recommends a Varta Silver Dynamic H3 (SD H3) as being very suitable as a motorhome 'leisure battery' despite it being advertised by Varta for starting purposes only.

 

Varta also markets the Professional Dual Purpose LFD 90, advertising this as "Designed for motorhomes, caravans and boats with lower energy requirements – ideal for starting and light service applications”.

 

The SD H3 and LFD 90 have the same dimensions, with the former having an advertised Ah and CCA of 100/830 and the latter of 90/800. There is a weight difference though, with the H3 weighing in at 21.92 kg, whereas the LFD 90 is heavier at 24.60kg. It’s generally suggested, as a reasonably reliable rule-of-thumb, that (where leisure batteries are concerned) when two batteries have the same dimensions and one is significantly heavier than the other, the heavier battery should be the better choice.

 

Regarding earlier comments from Full-timer and rupert123, Elecsol gained a reputation for supplying over-hyped, very average, far-from-cheap batteries and I would expect any good quality starter battery to meet rupert’s unchallenging 12V demands.

 

This has been discussed (sometimes acrimoniously) on this forum previously, with me suggesting that, while there’s no particular reason to think that a Varta SD starter-battery will not make a perfectly adequate leisure-battery for many motorcaravanners, it seemed to be a perverse choice when Varta marketed the "Dual Purpose” range with ‘leisure’ duties in mind.

 

Based on a cursory on-line search an LFD 90 battery can currently be bought for less than an SD H3. Varta advertises the LFD 90 for leisure-vehicle applications but not the SD H3. I replaced my Ford Transit-based motorhome’s elderly starter-battery with a Varta SD H3 as a precautionary measure, but I would not have chosen an LFD 90 instead any more than I would have chosen an SD H3 instead of an LFD 90 as a replacement for the vehicle’s leisure-battery.

 

I guess what I’m querying is why should a motorcaravanner (like rupert123), with non-onerous leisure-battery requirements, feel persuaded to buy a SD H3 starter-battery when he could buy an LFD 90 that Varta advertises as being ‘fitter for purpose’ and save some money?

[aandncaravan]

Good questions. One answer that immediately springs to mind is the extra 10Ah. Ask yourself where that has come from in the same physical size battery? Doesn't that suggest greater efficiency? Isn't that worth another £9?

 

As you say the LFD 90 is listed as : "Ideal for dual power applications (can be used for both STARTING and overall energy supply)".

 

In other words the 'Motorhome specific' Battery you have selected to challenge my argument has a Starter Battery base, and the entire point of the thread above. Most manufacturers have a Dual Purpose battery based on Starter construction/technology. However, it is fairly ordinary technology, even in the LFD 90.

 

The Varta Silver Dynamic Battery is special because of the 'Powerframe' technology and high Silver content. It is this technology that makes it more efficient and durable.

 

Your point about a battery being heavier and so better quality was the case in the 1980's, but battery performance is about the technology, not the Lead content. It is acknowledged that both Silver and Calcium endow a battery with better qualities than 30 years ago when little was present in a battery.

Any battery that uses these materials will be stronger and better in almost every way, yet both materials are lighter than Lead so will result in a lighter battery. The heavier a Battery is these days, the less technology it is likely to contain. A heavy high lead content battery is bad on other levels, pollution for one, bad on my Back for another and extra payload.

 

A Powerframe/Silver battery will not only use less power to charge up but will do it more quickly. How fantastic a characteristic is that when you only have short drives between Wild Camping stops or are charging one up with a Generator? They will charge at least twice as fast as the best Gel batteries.

Powerframe really does make a battery special, particularly over time. It has been Patented by Bosch/Varta so is unique to them. No other manufacturer we know of has anything even remotely similar.

 

And before anybody starts telling me that the Hing Ding Sung Helicopter battery at £900 will outperform a Varta SD H3, please remember that we are talking here 'in a similar price bracket". Yes of course there are better batteries out there, but for less than £89 with a real world 5 year guarantee?

 

But the final advantage of the Varta SD/Bosch S5 is it's Labyrinth Top that prevents the escape of any Fluid. The battery is designed to fit inside the passenger compartment of a car, like a BMW without an external vent. I have one under the seat in my Xsara Picasso, again no vent pipe fitted. Isn't that worth an extra tenner to never have to check the levels, top it up or risk being gassed?

It is so clever a design that with the High Silver content, Powerframe technology, Varta/Bosch guarantee the battery not to lose any fluid over 5 years.

 

We make the point on the website that we do not recommend all Starter batteries for use in the Habitation Area, just the Varta SD H3 and the Bosch S5. There are some other good Starter based Dual Purpose Batteries out there from other manufacturers, not just the LFD 90, which no one should be afraid to buy if used sensibly.

 

But please don't make the assumption that one battery is like another. They really, really are not.

 

 

[Brambles]

I will refrain from commenting on batteries and the technology because it does get tiresome. Derek has made very many valid points and no need for me to go over them again.

However I must point out safety regarding venting. These are NOT sealed batteries and they can emit gasses especially when they age or under fault conditions. Please always fit a vent tube unless in a well vented external locker.

[Derek Uzzell]

aandncaravan - 2015-08-14 8:45 PM

 

...But please don't make the assumption that one battery is like another. They really, really are not.

 

 

I would never make that assumption.

 

It’s plain that you are very enthusiastic about Varta SD/Bosch S5 batteries, but I’m still uncomfortable with the idea that those battery ranges (marketed by their manufacturers with no suggestion that they should be used other than as starter-batteries) are sufficiently unique to replace any (dimensionally) equivalent-size original-equipment (OE) motorhome leisure-battery.

 

As far as I’m aware no major motorhome manufacturer installs a Varta SD/Bosch S5 battery as OE for ‘leisure’ purposes and the primary reason those batteries have been suggested on motorhome forums as excellent replacements for deceased OE leisure batteries is because of the recommendation on your website.

 

I’m certainly not going to attempt to challenge you on the technical issues, but I still wonder why Varta/Bosch should bother marketing ‘dual purpose’ batteries when it would be simpler to advertise the SD/S5 ranges as having a dual-purpose capability. Or, to look at it another way, why do Varta/Bosch not advertise the SD/S5 ranges as being dual-purpose if they are superior to the Varta/Bosch ranges being marketed for dual-purpose applications?

 

There’s also the OE issue. As I’m sure you are aware several major motorhome manufacturers (eg. Auto-Trail, Chausson, Dethleffs, Hymer, Rapido) fit Banner batteries as OE for ‘leisure’ purposes.

 

My Rapido motorhome has a Banner “Energy Bull” 100Ah leisure-battery which has the same dimensions as Varta’s SD H3 or LFD 90. Energy Bull batteries are not marketed as starter-batteries, nor as dual-purpose batteries - they are marketed simply as ‘leisure batteries’. My first motorhome (1996-built) had a Varta battery as its OE leisure-battery and it should be as straightforward for a motorhome manufacturer to choose Varta SD/Bosch S5 batteries as OE rather than the Banner products - but they do not.

 

Now this could be because all these motorhome manufacturers get such a super-duper deal from Banner that fitting Varta/Bosch batteries instead would be financially ridiculous, or it could be that they genuinely believe that the Banner product is the best choice.

 

On the basis that Varta/Bosch batteries are not fitted as OE leisure-batteries, whereas Banner batteries are fitted as OE leisure-batteries and marketed specifically for that purpose, it’s hardly surprising that the first two responses to this discussion’s original inquiry suggested Banner, particularly when all the articles in leisure-vehicle magazines have reported that Banner batteries have performed well under test conditions.

[Guest Joe90]

Although only used as a starter battery, my Bosch S5 gave up the ghost after just 14 months, so much for quality eh,

 

and noting Ancaravans comments about people using 3000 watt inverters, do they really, maybe it's not representative but of the five motorhomers in our village none have an inverter of any description, in my experience given the advent of LED lighting, and very low wattage consumption TVs combined with solar panels now widely adopted, my battery seems to have less demands on it than a decade ago, not more.

 

 

[aandncaravan]

Brambles, Bosch are a quality company that I would trust. They guarantee the batteries maintenance free, with no loss of fluid for 5 years under normal conditions.

How can they not be sealed, yet have a guarantee that they will not lose any fluid in 5 years?

Not even so called 'sealed' battery manufacturers give that guarantee.

We have a lot of customers deliver them to us for subsequent fitting with a repaired charger/Alternator (we do not sell batteries so customers have to supply their own) and never once has a Varta SD or Bosch S5 arrived with leakage of Acid in the packaging. That is about as sealed as you can get in my eyes.

Can I point out again that we do not sell Batteries? Can I also point out that we see an awful lot of Motorhomes for Habitation checks (that are usually fault free) plus many with failed Chargers/Alternators. We see the setups that are working well, usually with quality batteries. We also see the Motorhomes with multiple issues, and usually poor quality or tired batteries.

We see what works well and what doesn't : the batteries that fail at 18 months and those that last a long time -

Real World everyday experience.

 

As for your comment that they can gas under fault conditions, well that applies equally to all technology batteries. Even 'sealed' Gel and AGM batteries. When a fault condition does occur a Wet Acid Varta SD battery is far more tolerant of both abnormal high voltages and temperature. They also respond to the failure in a much less dramatic way. Gel and AGM batteries tend to explode throwing their contents around the compartment.

We repair Motorhomes and Caravans as well as Repair the charging systems (both mains 240v chargers and Alternators). When a Gel/AGM battery does go, it's scary. Ask our junior technician, that cleans up the mess after an exploded AGM battery, which batteries he thinks have safety issues!!

 

Sorry to disagree because I have great respect for your knowledge, but when it comes to safety the Varta Silver will tolerate both Higher temperatures and voltages than either AGM or GEL plus all other fault conditions in a much more passive way.

 

 

Derek, Everybody knows that a true Leisure battery is designed to give a few amps over a long period, as a result it will have a very low CCA/'Starting Amps' figure.

A true Leisure battery with Fat Plates will be destroyed very quickly if you use it to start a big Diesel engine. Yet almost all Wet Acid 'Leisure' batteries under £150 have a very high CCA figure capable of starting Diesel engines of both Marine and Leisure vehicles. This applies to batteries from Yuasa, Exide, Numax, etc.

The Numax XV31MF is listed as a Motorhome/Marine Leisure battery, we see it in a lot of Motorhomes. Yet has a CCA high enough to start a 8 litre, V10 Diesel, so clearly not a proper 'Leisure' battery. People have been buying these for years and they work well.

 

The facts are, that Starter battery technology is the basis for some of the very best batteries out there (in the under £150 price bracket which is where the majority of Caravan and Motorhome owners buy),

If a Starter battery base is so 'bad' why do Exide and Yuasa do it? They are about the two biggest in the World.

Your reluctance to believe they work well is from years of being told that you can't use a Starter battery when almost everybody already is.

All we are saying is that most people buying a Habitation battery in the under £150 bracket will be getting a Starter battery base. So why not get one with the best Technology going with heaps of advantages over any other battery or technology in the price range?.

 

It isn't Rocket Science.

 

If you NEED a Victron or Trojan Energy style battery at £290 each, then that is a whole different argument again, but for 99% of Motorhome and Caravan owners it would be a huge waste of money.

In many cases it would actually cause problems with the majority of Modern Motorhome Charger/power units and Alternators.

 

 

[Bulletguy]

ChrisD - 2015-08-11 8:38 PM

 

Can anyone point me in the direction of a good brand, I have heard Varta are

good. And AGM technology?. I have a 100w solar panel and like to spend time without EHU.

 

Any suggestions gratefully received

 

Forget brand name and look at warranty length.

 

My leisure battery is a 125ah Xplorer. Never heard of 'em? Not surprised.....but at £80 with FOUR YEAR warranty who bothers what name is on the label? I certainly don't! Had it two fault free years now and if i get another three out of it i'm content with that.

 

This is who i bought mine from; http://stores.ebay.co.uk/THE-BATTERY-MANs-SHOP/Leisure-batteries-/_i.html?_fsub=373176010&_sid=207197280&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322

[kevina]

On the other hand neither Varta nor Bosch, nor any of their retailers , and not one "expert" website that I can find have recommended the silver dynamic battery as a leisure battery. In fact no one but aandn recommend it and they admit they are not battery experts.

[Derek Uzzell]

aandncaravan - 2015-08-15 2:01 PM

 

...Your reluctance to believe they work well is from years of being told that you can't use a Starter battery when almost everybody already is...

 

 

I’m not reluctant to believe that a Varta SD/Bosch S5 will be adequate for motorcaravanners with undemanding 12V ‘domestic’ requirements. But a Banner “Energy Bull” 100Ah battery marketed specifically for ‘leisure’ applications is fitted as OE by several major motorhome manufacturers and can be obtained retail for, say, £110. I have that battery as OE in my Rapido motorhome and, if I needed to replace it, logic tells me that replacing it on a like-for-like basis would be the common-sense thing to do. I don’t intend to use my present Banner battery to start the vehicle’s motor, nor to power any 12V high-demand appliances, so I can’t see any persuasive reason to take the Varta/Bosch route. I’d be very happy to choose a Varta SD/Bosch S5 instead of a Banner “Energy Bull” if I were convinced that this would be a logical thing to do, but I’ve yet to be convinced.

[StuartO]

Derek Uzzell - 2015-08-16 9:25 AM

 

aandncaravan - 2015-08-15 2:01 PM

 

...Your reluctance to believe they work well is from years of being told that you can't use a Starter battery when almost everybody already is...

 

 

I’m not reluctant to believe that a Varta SD/Bosch S5 will be adequate for motorcaravanners with undemanding 12V ‘domestic’ requirements. But a Banner “Energy Bull” 100Ah battery marketed specifically for ‘leisure’ applications is fitted as OE by several major motorhome manufacturers and can be obtained retail for, say, £110. I have that battery as OE in my Rapido motorhome and, if I needed to replace it, logic tells me that replacing it on a like-for-like basis would be the common-sense thing to do. I don’t intend to use my present Banner battery to start the vehicle’s motor, nor to power any 12V high-demand appliances, so I can’t see any persuasive reason to take the Varta/Bosch route. I’d be very happy to choose a Varta SD/Bosch S5 instead of a Banner “Energy Bull” if I were convinced that this would be a logical thing to do, but I’ve yet to be convinced.

 

Isn't it a matter of choosing the Banner option if you want to make regular use of fairly deep discharges (i.e. you are regularly off EHU for days at a time, maybe with weak solar panel support) and the Varta/Bosch option if (as I do) you make lighter use of 12 volts off mains, because they will do the lighter job and are also easier on the mains charger.

 

I would however like a clearer basis for knowing when my leisure batteries are failing and I don't like the idea (as aandacaravans suggest) of replacing based on achieving the battery age of twice the warranty period, which seems too arbitrary.

[aandncaravan]

Derek, A lot is talked about Deep discharge capable Batteries in Motorhomes when most quality post 2009 Motorhomes will not allow you to go to the very low volts for which the battery is designed, as the Power distribution/charger unit will cut all power to prevent battery damage.

 

Secondly, even where a Motorhome user has a genuine requirement to deep discharge a Leisure battery to very low volts, it is something that has a very high cost as it will shorten the life of all but the very, very best (and hugely expensive) batteries.

For example Victron Energy have some excellent products, one of the few companies that we rate. They are open about their battery specifications. They have some excellent long life Gel batteries with a life of up to 10 years. However, if the battery is taken down to low discharge levels on a regular basis the life drops to a staggering 2 years. This is how all batteries behave, it is not a Victron Energy thing.

 

Any Battery, in the under the £290 bracket (we are not talking about very expensive special characteristic batteries) that can deep discharge, will have a very short life if you use that capability.

 

So when you talk about true deep discharge, it is a characteristic that just doesn't make sense to actually use, unless your situation is such that you accept that compromise.

That is why Banner recommend their AGM battery is not taken below 50%. Even though, as with most AGM batteries, they will allow a greater discharge, but not without a penalty. Be careful about batteries advertising very low levels of Deep discharge to low volts. They will usually do what the advertising says, but you should research the side effects.

 

I don't understand why you keep proposing a Banner battery?

Cut open both a Banner Energy Bull and a Varta Silver Dynamic. Study the Plate construction of both and then present your evidence that the Banner Energy Bull 'Leisure' battery has superior Plate construction that will allow it to discharge deeper?

 

Just because it is OE equipment, very rarely means its the best. Look at almost every aspect of your Motorhome to see the compromises between cost and quality, the balance usually favouring cost savings. We repair Motorhomes, we have got to know, for example, which of the Bathroom fittings and furniture are the best, yet usually find anything but.

The sole fact they are OE equipment would, in my book, be enough to discount them.

 

Let us put Bosch/Varta to one side for the minute, please can I ask you to list the outstanding technology, characteristics, etc that puts the Banner above an Exide or Yuasa in your ratings? What is it that, in your opinion, that puts the Banner above the two generally most highly regarded battery manufacturers in the World? Isn't the Exide 'Surelife' with 'Graphite' technology superior to anything from Banner?

 

We have laid on the table for open examination why we make the recommendations we do, that allows anyone to do their own research and make up their own mind.

 

.

 

 

[Guest mikethe bike]

The information offered on forums is no different than Wikipedia. Which is open source to be added to or modified by anybody. Therefore you have to take it at face value and do further research from someone who hopefully has some qualification to make the claims that they do.

You can't believe all you read on Forums or elsewhere on T'internet.

Do your own research, as everybody on the WWW is an expert on something or other, after all they don't have to deal with the aftermath of their self indulgent advice.

[StuartO]

mikethe bike - 2015-08-16 10:06 PM

 

The information offered on forums is no different than Wikipedia. Which is open source to be added to or modified by anybody. Therefore you have to take it at face value and do further research from someone who hopefully has some qualification to make the claims that they do.

You can't believe all you read on Forums or elsewhere on T'internet.

Do your own research, as everybody on the WWW is an expert on something or other, after all they don't have to deal with the aftermath of their self indulgent advice.

 

I think you mean that forum advice shouldn't be taken at face value in case it's somebody's ego trip, don't you?

 

What you should do is build up confidence in a source based on your view of the quality and consistency of what that source delivers - and likewise learn to disregard those contributors who have nothing reLly useful to say. There are contributors to this Forum who fall into both categories, so you have to learn to distinguish skilfully. Generally speaking it's best not to respond to those who indulge in personal criticism lest you give them attention that they seek; leave them to the Moderator to deal with.

[Derek Uzzell]

Allan

 

I do not “...keep proposing a Banner battery...”

 

I have pointed out that a number of major motorhome manufacturers currently choose to install Banner products (either ‘wet acid’ or AGM type) as OE batteries to power habitation 12V electrics, and that (to the best of my knowledge) no major motorhome manufacturer currently uses Varta/Bosch batteries for the same purpose. I have said that, if I needed to replace my Rapido’s Banner “Energy Bull” battery, the likelihood is that I would replace it on a like-for-like basis. If the Rapido had been fitted with a Varta/Bosch/Yuasa battery as OE, rather than the Banner, the likelihood is that I would do the same and replace on a like-for-like basis (provided, of course, that I had been satisfied with the OE battery in either instance).

 

When it comes to replacing batteries advice for UK caravan/motorhome owners tends to come from specialist leisure magazines or the UK clubs and in articles like this one

 

http://www.campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk/helpandadvice/technicalhelp/power/a-guide-to-leisure-batteries/

 

Over the years there have been a small number of independent tests of batteries that have been marketed for ‘leisure’ applications as it was suspected that some of these products were poor quality and unfit for purpose. The tests proved that the suspicions were correct, with some of the ‘leisure’ batteries providing poor performance ands, when opened up, having all the technical characteristics of a cheaply-made ‘starter’ battery. Banner “Energy Bull” batteries came out well in those tests, which may be why earlier posters suggested them.

 

Received wisdom nowadays - perhaps as a result of those tests - is that a 'leisure-battery' differs significantly from a 'starter-battery' and, consequently, the former type of battery should be chosen for powering the habitation side of caravans/motorhomes, not the latter.

 

However (again as far as I’m aware) no independent tests have been carried out deliberately comparing batteries marketed particularly for leisure applications with modern batteries from reputable companies like Varta, Bosch, Yuasa, etc. that are marketed as starter batteries.

 

It might be that such a test would overturn current received wisdom and that motorhome owners (including me) could happily replace, say, a Banner “Energy Bull” 100Ah (or any other battery marketed for ‘leisure’ or even ‘dual purpose’ usage) with, say, a Varta SD 100Ah marketed as a starter-battery and not think it would be a strange thing to do.

[Brambles]

 

aandncaravan - 2015-08-15 2:01 PM

Brambles, Bosch are a quality company that I would trust. They guarantee the batteries maintenance free, with no loss of fluid for 5 years under normal conditions.

No one is disputing Bosch are a good company. I have dealt with Bosch for many years. However they do not manufacture batteries. Johnson Controls own the Varta brand and they supply the Bosch batteries which are rebranded Varta batteries.

Yes they do guarantee the batteries under normal conditions but leisure use is not normal conditions and cycling a battery down to 50% numerous times is firmly well outside normal conditions for a starter battery even the very advanced stop start AGM versions.

How can they not be sealed, yet have a guarantee that they will not lose any fluid in 5 years?

The Labyrinth covers are sealed into position to prevent any leaks and meet the requirements of EN specs and 55 degree tilt angle when no fluid should be lost. This is probably what is being referred to when they say no fluid loss. The covers on the Silver Dynamic range all have vent ports so hardly making them totally sealed. The labyrinth prevents fluid reaching the vent ports and also allows condensing of any vapour so it can return to the cells. The labyrinth is designed to also help reduce water loss through evaporation. Under normal use (that is as a normal starter battery) there is enough reserve of electrolyte to last the expected life of the battery. Gassing from the batteries is minimal and very low, but as a battery ages this increases a lot. Therefore you cannot regard these batteries as fully sealed. They are not sealed batteries in the sense Gel are. Like ALL batteries if not fitted with venting tubes they must be used in a well ventilated area.

So under normal conditions they will not SPILL any fluid, and have enough reserves to allow for evaporation and gassing.

We have a lot of customers deliver them to us for subsequent fitting with a repaired charger/Alternator (we do not sell batteries so customers have to supply their own) and never once has a Varta SD or Bosch S5 arrived with leakage of Acid in the packaging. That is about as sealed as you can get in my eyes.

I would hope not. The lids are sealed onto the battery case top to prevent any leaks at the joints, and if the vent plugs are inserted for transit then there should be no spillage. Also chances are the batteries have been kept upright so even without the plugs should not spill.

 

Can I point out again that we do not sell Batteries? Can I also point out that we see an awful lot of Motorhomes for Habitation checks (that are usually fault free) plus many with failed Chargers/Alternators. We see the setups that are working well, usually with quality batteries. We also see the Motorhomes with multiple issues, and usually poor quality or tired batteries.

We see what works well and what doesn't : the batteries that fail at 18 months and those that last a long time -

Real World everyday experience.

As for your comment that they can gas under fault conditions, well that applies equally to all technology batteries. Even 'sealed' Gel and AGM batteries. When a fault condition does occur a Wet Acid Varta SD battery is far more tolerant of both abnormal high voltages and temperature. They also respond to the failure in a much less dramatic way. Gel and AGM batteries tend to explode throwing their contents around the compartment.

. Generally AGM and Gel are regarded as being safer when it comes to exploding. But in my view really depends on the age of the batteries and their condition along with what the charging fault is. Battery explosion is rare but does happen. I would hope you have not had enough explosions of batteries or evidence of such to form accurate statistics or an opinion of what is more likely to explode .

We repair Motorhomes and Caravans as well as Repair the charging systems (both mains 240v chargers and Alternators). When a Gel/AGM battery does go, it's scary. Ask our junior technician, that cleans up the mess after an exploded AGM battery, which batteries he thinks have safety issues!!

It is OK, I take your word for it that it makes a mess. How many AGM explosions has he cleaned up?

Sorry to disagree because I have great respect for your knowledge, but when it comes to safety the Varta Silver will tolerate both Higher temperatures and voltages than either AGM or GEL plus all other fault conditions in a much more passive way.

I am not quite sure what you are disagreeing with. If it is my comment a vent tube should always be added if not in a well ventilated external locker or area then I stand by that. Varta, Yuasa and Exide will all agree with this for a flooded battery of any type. The Varta operating temperature range seems to be much the same as any other supplier’s equivalent. As to comparing between different types as far as I am aware AGM and Gel can perform better at higher ambient temperatures than standard Flooded or EFB. I get the impression you have been reading specs and marketing information for Stop start silver AGM and applying it across the range of all the varta batteries.

However I do accept AGM and Gel are less tolerant of over voltage faults and will more rapidly reach a point where they can heat up and therefore is a higher risk of explosion. So in this respect you do make a good point in favour of a flooded battery. However there are many adva ntages in using AGM or Gel and all depends on conditions of operation and profile of use.

Derek, Everybody knows that a true Leisure battery is designed to give a few amps over a long period, as a result it will have a very low CCA/'Starting Amps' figure.

A true Leisure battery with Fat Plates will be destroyed very quickly if you use it to start a big Diesel engine. Yet almost all Wet Acid 'Leisure' batteries under £150 have a very high CCA figure capable of starting Diesel engines of both Marine and Leisure vehicles. This applies to batteries from Yuasa, Exide, Numax, etc.

Depends on its specification and it’s max current capabilities which will be related to its capacity. It may actually cope very well with starting duties when fully charged because of surface charge on the plates assisting the current. A typical leisure dual purpose may have a starting current of around 600 Amps which is more than adequate for many engines. The typical deep cycle flooded batteries of a semi traction nature will be around 400 Amps. Again sufficient for many engines when fully charged. However as they discharge the available current falls off very quickly and there will be more wear on the plates as a result of the high currents so life is reduced faster but it is so wrong to say they will be destroyed very quickly. It is not really relevant though as most will not be using a deep cycle type battery as a starter. Especially as a good starter battery is a lot cheaper than a good leisure battery with a life of around 400 cycles at 50%. We are side tracking far too much from the discussion regarding Varta Silver starters.

The Numax XV31MF is listed as a Motorhome/Marine Leisure battery, we see it in a lot of Motorhomes. Yet has a CCA high enough to start a 8 litre, V10 Diesel, so clearly not a proper 'Leisure' battery. People have been buying these for years and they work well.

Well maybe people are just not discharging very much or very many times, or indeed the CCA is way over stated and I just do not see how you can use this to back up your argument in so far as a a varta silver must be good because the Numax dual purpose works well.

The facts are, that Starter battery technology is the basis for some of the very best batteries out there (in the under £150 price bracket which is where the majority of Caravan and Motorhome owners buy),

If a Starter battery base is so 'bad' why do Exide and Yuasa do it? They are about the two biggest in the World.

The technology used in starter batteries has changed a lot over the last 10 years. It is not so much the technology has advanced in itself but the implementation of the newer manufacturing methods forced upon manufacturers to make starter batteries for stop start and heavy power consuming vehicles. The knock on affect is they can then use these processes across into their leisure range of batteries as well, improving them. Yes, the starter is the basis for dual purpose batteries but they apply more lead to the plates which often is implemented by making the paste more dense and viscous. This reduces the batteries ability for high start CCA and also reduces the surface charge on the plates available for assisting starting. It does however improve the robustness of the battery and its ability to be deep cycled.

Often with a starter battery it is the surface charge on the plates which is managing to start the engine. So a van which is stopping and starting all the time hardly wears out the battery. However we have a problem on modern vehicles which have much heavier loads on the battery when the engine is stopped and this drains away the surface charge built up so therefore now relying on the battery to do its job by chemical reaction. This wears out a normal starter much faster. So we need much better batteries and hence why AGM and EFB batteries have been advanced. Manufacturers have then used that technology in the basic range of batteries. It is convenient to do so. If you make advanced batteries using stamped rolled lead plates with fancy computer generated patterns to improve current paths then why continue to make poorer plates and keep a separate production line and the space need for such going. Just use the later plates in your basic batteries as it will also improve them. Hence as a development of the Varta EFB, AGM and start stop batteries the basic flooded batteries have also adopted the technology and become the Varta Dynamic Trio. The Varta Silver, Varta Blue and Varta Black flooded batteries for older technology cars. All having different variations of the plates with lighter or more dense lead paste.

Every time you discharge and recharge a battery you lose some of the active material on the plates. this is lost for ever. So the more you can develop the plates to holds more surface charge the better, and also develop so there is less active material lost when cycling. So the more lead you can pack onto the plates such as making thicker or more dense the better but still maintain porosity of the plates. For high CCA start purposes this is not desireable, but for cycle use it can double the cycle life. The Varta Silver is developed as a starter battery and not a battery for deep cycle use.

Now let us look at the Silver flooded and the Varta Leisure dual purpose. I do not know what actual plates they use for the dual purpose but the battery is very much based on the silver starter. It is basically the same battery but with thicker/denser lead on the plates so for cycle use has to in every possible way be better than the silver dynamic starter. As it is slightly heavier I suspect all they have done is use a more dense paste. So yes you are right most of our leisure batteries are based on starter batteries but THIS IN NO WAY makes the varta silver flooded the best battery to choose, far from it. As you see so many failed batteries after 18 months it would be interesting to know how many failures you see of each battery type along with information of how they have been used so it has some meaning. Maybe those using starter batteries are doing so because they are light users, and those with say semi traction are heavy users and hence why they selected a deeper cycle battery. Therefore reporting what battery you see failing more often and what appears to last longer is totally meaningless without knowing how that battery was used and looked after.

The exact same arguments can be used for Yuasa and their latest offerings. One of their advanced batteries as an example has a cylcic capability of around 50 cycles at 50% dod. By just merely thickening up the paste it then turns it into a dual purpose capable of 70 to 300 cycles depending on conditions such as temperature and length of time before recharging and other factors. The older Yuasa leisure batteries used to have a typical cycle life of around 100 cycles the new ones are comparable with the varta leisure of around 200 cycles. As a dual purpose battery the Yuasa offerings are worth looking at.

Now lets compare the Varta flooded offerings with the Banner. It is is a semi traction design. Much thicker plates and is capable of twice the cycle life of the varta leisure and more than twice that of the silver starter. There is no argument which makes the silver starter better as a leisure battery than the Banner, unless of course it is being used in a dual purpose application.

Your reluctance to believe they work well is from years of being told that you can't use a Starter battery when almost everybody already is.

All we are saying is that most people buying a Habitation battery in the under £150 bracket will be getting a Starter battery base. So why not get one with the best Technology going with heaps of advantages over any other battery or technology in the price range?.

Because the best technology going in that price range, I think that is what you mean, is not ideally the starter version but the leisure version. If you mean best technology going full stop that I disagree as EFB an AGM stop start batteries use far more advance and better technology.

 

It isn't Rocket Science.

No, and your logic to take what is a brilliant starter and say it must therefore be a brilliant leisure battery is very seriously flawed and that is not rocket science either.

You mentioned somewhere about Exide graphite batteries. As far as I am aware they are not available in Europe so is academic. Please correct me if I am wrong. However, they do only have a low cycle life when discharge 50%. Their advantage is as a stop start battery with regenerative braking as far as I undertstand. They would make a very expensive leisure battery especially with a low cycle life at 50% dod .

If you NEED a Victron or Trojan Energy style battery at £290 each, then that is a whole different argument again, but for 99% of Motorhome and Caravan owners it would be a huge waste of money.

In many cases it would actually cause problems with the majority of Modern Motorhome Charger/power units and Alternators.

Agree, but this is all confusing mentioning this when not relevant to the choice between Varta Starter, Varta Leisure, and Banner.

…and I sure am confused by most of what you post and requires a lot of work to decipher what you are really saying. Apologies to anyone else reading this but it is time this discussion was put to bed and the Myth by A&N caravans a silver starter/Bosch S5 make a brilliant leisure battery. 10 to 15 years ago as a light duty maybe. But not today.

………

Now for something really worthwhile considering.

Get yourself three YUASA REC22-12 AGM batteries. You should be able to source for under £30 each. So that’s under £90 for 66 Ah which you can discharge 80% dod and get 600 cycles of 53Ah. The recharge is around 5 amps each so total is 15 Amps so quite a respectable recharge rate over all.

Compare this with a Varta SD 100AH you can only take 50% out safely and maybe get 100 cycles if you are lucky. What does a 100Ah SD cost – around £90. For the same money you are streets ahead of any dual purpose being used as a deep cycle and all for same cost. It is even better than the Banner and if for the additional banner cost you make it 4 batteries it is a pretty good suggested alternative isn’t it if your charger can charge AGM, but even using flooded setting they will perform extremely well.

So, Allan, all due respect, but please to not condemn what others are saying in these forums as they really do actually make very valid points and raise very pertinent questions. Real world experience is one thing but often what you see is coloured and you need to take a lot more into account. Such as why you see more failures is because those with ‘better’ batteries actually use them more than those with cheap starters who bought cheap because they only use once a year.

 

(jeepers, on reading the preview I really have gone on a lot. What the heck, will post as it is. )