Leisure batteries -- again!

[Guest Joe90]

So in just a couple of words what wet lead acid battery should folk be buying for leisure use. 8-) *-) ;-)

[Brambles]

Joe90 - 2015-08-18 5:15 PM

 

So in just a couple of words what wet lead acid battery should folk be buying for leisure use. 8-) *-) ;-)

 

Joe90, Can do it in only ONE word.......

 

Depends! :-S

[Guest Joe90]

Brambles - 2015-08-18 5:56 PM

 

Joe90 - 2015-08-18 5:15 PM

 

So in just a couple of words what wet lead acid battery should folk be buying for leisure use. 8-) *-) ;-)

 

Joe90, Can do it in only ONE word.......

 

Depends! :-S

 

Well that covers a multitude of options, perhaps tossing a coin is the way to go. (!)

[aandncaravan]

At one point you write, ".. to take what is a brilliant Starter battery...".

But then ignore all of it's very special characteristics, and just argue it's not a specialist Deep Discharge battery, when I don't claim it is.

 

My whole argument is about it being a Starter battery but one with some very special, unique characteristics that are very relevant to the modern Motorhome owner. It is great that everybody seems to acknowledge it is an outstanding battery, but a shame they then ignore it's strengths. No one on the thread has yet remarked on the complete lack of internal corrosion from it's amazing technology and the myriad of benefits this and the other features bring to the Motorhome table.

 

Sorry but there any many errors in what you write. The Varta Silver batteries do not have an excess of acid as you claim. They are genuinely sealed with out loss of either Gas or Water. As it says on the Varta/Bosch website they are guaranteed not to lose any Fluid (Fluid is a term that applies to Gas and Liquid) in 5 years.

In Motorhome habitation area terms, a guarantee that the battery will not expel any fluid (Gas or liquid) is exactly what is required for safety.

None of the battery contents will reach the Motorhome habitation area.

Nothing, no Gas or liquid will escape the casing into the atmosphere.

No loss of any fluid into the Motorhome.

Sorry but it doesn't matter how I write it, I just can't get to your interpretation?

We have discharged them down to under 11v and charged back up at 35a without any sign of gassing or odour. Bosch categorically state they do not lose any fluid (surely that means no Gas or liquid escapes the casing?), guaranteed for 5 years.

Gel and AGM batteries are 'sealed' in the same way a Varta Silver Dynamic is, in that there are vents to the atmosphere controlled by valves. Under normal use they will not vent any fluid yet It is acknowledged that both Gel, but particularly AGM, are very intolerant of the wrong charging voltage. Sometimes with serious consequences.

 

Not one Motorhome currently being made has an AGM optimised charging program. Yet AGM batteries are being recommended for fitment by people who know it won't get the correct voltage. That very fine defined voltage is not only critical for it's safety but to ensure it gets fully charged.

Not really a surprise we are seeing so many failed ones that have clearly been gassing to the atmosphere? Considering the relatively small number fitted in Motorhomes, we have seen a very high proportion of exploded cases.

 

When it comes to safety and gassing we suggest the hazard is AGM not any wet acid battery?

 

We get all manner of batteries delivered to us by customers for fitting, only the Varta SD and Bosch S5 never have acid in the packaging. Banner Energy Bulls are amongst the ones that have leaked.

 

The trio of Varta batteries you claim are the same, are not. Only the Silver batteries have Powerframe. The LFD leisure range highlighted by Derek also does not, hence it's lower price and lower capability in most areas.

 

The Varta 'Black' range and 'Blue' range are variations of standard technology and not in the same league as the Silver by big margin.

 

My previous Picasso had a Varta 'Blue' range battery under the Passenger Seat with noticeable odour inside the passenger compartment when being used until we discovered the vent tube had come adrift.

As stated before the current Picasso is fitted with a Varta SD inside the passenger compartment with the tube detached to see how good they are. There is no odour, not even when it was rapid charged by the Alternator after we left the lights on. The battery ran right down to 6.9v before we noticed.

We Jump started it and drove it around 60 miles. That was nearly two years ago. We usually advise against a Battery Jump start followed by a rapid charge on the Alternator if you want to preserve the battery.

A modern Alternator tends to throw in a much bigger charge than a battery likes, causing damage. The Varta SD (VSD) is not showing signs of any issue nearly 2 years on. It has run flat twice. Something the book says they can't survive. For a battery that can't be taken right down to pancake flat twice is still doing pretty good.

 

You write, "Gassing from the batteries (Varta Silver) is minimal and very low, but as a battery ages this increases a lot".

Varta/Bosch say gassing from the battery is not minimal, it is zero. This is backed up by our own testing. As you will be aware a battery with a high Silver content is highly resistant to Gassing and High Temperature damage. If you throw in Powerframe it behaves even better. You will see that one of its Star qualities is that it doesn't deteriorate with age. At 5 years it will be more efficient than any other battery in the Class by a big margin. It won't have any of the corrosion that blights ALL other acid battery technologies including Gel and AGM.

Bosch and Varta guarantee this characteristic for 5 years.

 

As for statistics :

Three of the exploded batteries were Gel, and four AGM. None of them related to charging faults. Each was from internal failure.

 

No Wet Acid batteries have yet exploded but had some with obvious Acid expulsion.

 

Also I would guess we have seen about 12 Bloated Gel casings and 3 AGM's with Bloated casings, all showing signs of serious gassing, but the valves vented the case before explosion could take place. All the exploded and bloated AGM batteries were Banner.

 

One of the Gel failings was a charging issue caused by a poor Solar regulator.

 

In the last year we have had around 20 charger/power units sent to us (as in 'by post' not a visit with the Motorhome). The worst was a Calira 38/20 from Vikki Gates who described the battery as 'exploding everywhere'. I can't remember if that was a Wet or Gel battery, Vikki reads the forums so might enlighten us?

Running that close was a melted and utterly destroyed Schaudt EBL109 that was sent from New Zealand.

 

As for saying I have been reading the specs for different batteries and that a VSD has the same temperature tolerance, that is incorrect on both counts.

 

You are fully aware that a high content silver battery, like the VSD, is much more tolerant of both gassing and high temperatures.

On their web site Victron list a Gel battery with a 12 year life, very good it is too. But if it is discharged and recharged at a temperature of 40 degrees C it's life plummets to less than two years. Typical temperatures abroad in summer plus the heating of the battery from chemical reaction of use will regularly bring a battery to the high thirties. The life of a VSD, because it does not gass until way beyond that of almost all AGM and Gel, is much greater in the same conditions. Also because the acid is much more mobile in a VSD it can move around the plate by convection carrying away the warmer acid at the plate surface and enabling the temperature at the plate surface to be much cooler than either Gel or AGM. The temperature at the plates of a Gel battery can be over 10 degrees higher than the case temperature.

 

On the subject of CCA you write, "A typical leisure dual purpose may have a starting current of around 600 Amps which is more than adequate for many engines. The typical deep cycle flooded batteries of a semi traction nature will be around 400 Amps".

 

The Traction batteries we have seen are down nearer 300CCA?.

Your suggested CCA of 600amps are typical figures of more than 7 years ago, but not now.

Current figures are nearer 1000CCA, see the Numax CXV31.

Even Dereks own example of his "deep Cycle Leisure" battery has a CCA of 800 vs a VSD's 'only' 830. Does this suggest you haven't realised just how 'Starter Battery like' a Leisure battery has become?

 

In response to my claim about technology changes in the last 10 years, you write" It is not so much the technology has advanced in itself but the manufacturing...".

Exide might disagree with you that their Surelife and Graphite are new technologies. Powerframe is a patented technology. Don't you also propose at the end of your thread a battery with technology that was almost unheard of in a Motorhome 7 years ago?

 

You write, "your logic to take what is a brilliant starter and say it must therefore be a brilliant leisure battery is very seriously flawed".

That is applying a twist to my argument, I wrote that, If the majority of people buying a so called leisure battery in the budget price bracket, are actually buying a Starter based battery, then why not buy a Starter battery with outstanding technology that puts it head and shoulders above the rest?

 

We are all aware that AGM is a better technology but when used in a Motorhome it won't get the ideal charge rate. It will take longer to charge up and on some Motorhomes never reach full charge. If any battery sits at 80% of its potential, it will deteriorate. That deterioration will eventually lead to internal failure, and most likely the reason we have seen so many bloated/explode AGM's. Some Motorhomes have chargers with a fixed 13.8v, how can that possibly get the best out of an AGM that wants 14.7v?

 

My whole argument is that the lower end leisure batteries are now Starter battery based, that was how I started my response at the very beginning of this thread.

 

The owner of the thread, in his first opening, made the same claim that he thought his Leisure batteries were Starter like in construction. I responded saying that he should not be afraid of buying another such battery as the better Starter based habitation batteries are often better than the budget so called leisure batteries.

 

You focus on DOD as though it is the primary consideration, with a capital P, when choosing a battery. Yes there are some great, indecently expensive batteries, that will go to very low levels of discharge and allow you to use almost every amp.

 

As I state very early in the thread, Victron energy make an outstanding Long Life Gel that can be discharged to almost nothing. However their figures show that if you discharge it very low, it's life drops from 10 years to just 2 years. This same usage pattern applies to ALL batteries.

 

Discharge any battery very low and it will have a very shortened life.

So how does it make sense to take a battery to very low levels as the penalty is unbelievably high.

Isn't it better to create a bigger battery bank of cheaper batteries and not take them below 60%?

All the way through your thread the argument is all about Deep discharge. But Mr Stacey who visited today in his Burstner has a Schaudt EBL that stops him running the batteries low by shutting down the 12v. What use is it to him if the battery 'might have given him another days power'? He can't use it even if he wanted to.

Same applies to most modern, quality motorhomes.

 

We would argue that the focus of Deep discharge is completely out of step with today. With so many Motorhomes now having Solar power or Generators, deep discharge is the wrong focus. Someone with Solar power wants every amp that the setup can muster to become usable to them at a later date. They don't want their Solar Panel to put 150amps into a storage vessel that only returns 90amps because of internal battery losses and leakage.

 

They usually harvest enough during the day to see them into the next day wthout taking the battery very low.

The whole point of their setup is to last weeks away without running out of power so the Solar setup is built accordingly. We think efficiency is now most users primary consideration. The best batteries can make as much a difference as a 20% bigger Solar Panel over the least efficient batteries. As a battery ages this can be more than double.

 

We think most Motorhome owners are now savvy to the cost of running a battery very low so it is avoided.

 

A budget leisure battery will be no where as efficient as a VSD, typically losing 10 - 20% in conversion losses. As the battery ages so the losses increase.

 

Do what we did and take a 3 year old conventional Leisure battery (in seemingly good condition) and charge it to a set level, monitoring the exact amps applied. Then discharge it back to the level it was at and you will find that (we only tested 10 batteries ) you will get back around 60 and 81% of what you put in. The rest is lost in overcoming the corrosion, chemical conversion losses, etc. We estimate that on a typical battery at 5 years of age, of every 100amps you put into a battery, you might get back less than 40a. In terms of a Solar setup that is like covering up nearly two thirds of your Solar Panel.

 

Not many old VSD's around to test but we found a 28 month and 32 month battery to test. We recovered 93% and 92% of what we put in. My old Picasso, twice flat battery that won't survive going being run low recorded 89% which exceed the best of the 'Leisure' batteries.

 

We believe the VSD, because of it's unique, patented technology is more efficient than any other battery around. Because of this efficiency it places a lighter load on all the charging systems. The lack of internal corrosion at 5 years means that when your Solar regulator pumps the amps into the battery, most of them can be drawn again later.

From our own selfish view point it means the load you place on the Charger means they last longer.

 

Like in all we do, we try and look at things in a different way. We think that he cyclic capability and Depth Of Discharge is not the only focus of the majority of todays Motorhome owners. However, the VSD will handle sensible DOD and discharge/recharge cycles better than anything in it's price class.

 

[StuartO]

So we shouldn't shy away from choosing a new technology battery for use as a leisure battery simply because it's sold primarily or nominally as a starter battery because modern "stop-start" vehicles have led to a demand for starter batteries with characteristics which make them good leisure batteries as well.

 

And nor should we assume that using a deep discharge battery as a leisure battery on a motorhome is a good choice anyway because deeper discharging shortens the life of any battery, is associated with less efficient recharging and your Electroblok (or equivalent) will prevent you from making really deep discharges anyway by shutting things down.

 

So if you are a typically light user of 12v when off hook-up, as I am and many MH owners are, a Varta Silver is a better choice as a replacement leisure battery than an Exide gel battery. This is because it will recharge from a shallower discharge more quickly and with higher efficiency from your solar panels. The Varta Silver also costs less than half of an Exide gel.

 

So you buy enough Varta Silver capacity (maybe two 100 AH batteries) to ensure that your solar panels will have an easy job recharging them the following day after a relatively shallow discharge each evening. As long as you park where the sun can reach your panels (or at least daylight can reach them) and you have enough panel capacity, you should be self-sufficient in solar power.

 

Have I got that right you experts?

[Duncan MMM]

Thread has been moderated. There's no need to debate who is most knowledgeable, who is the biggest expert. It's all opinion, from different perspectives. Also, the OP asked for recommendations, not an enormous and almost unreadable technical argument.

[Brambles]

hi again, you are misled on so many counts its really difficult to construct a response.

Try reading my response above again, but this time put more trust in what I am actually saying instead of reading with the view it is all wrong. Then maybe you might understand.

 

The Varta SD flooded is NOT SEALED. The Varta Blue and Black use the same plate technology.

I agree the grids might have extremely high corrosion resistance, but the lead paste is what does the real work when discharging and it sulphates, oxidises and erodes over time and use. It is a Starter Battery and whilst twice the cycle life of a conventional starter it is not as good as a Varta Dual purpose flooded in a cyclic appication .... and is around the same price.

 

I really respect your knowedge on systems and chargers, one of the most useful chaps to have on the forums because of your experience of them. I just strongly feel you have been misled when it comes to the Varta SD.

[webby1]

About to buy new batteries so this is a very interesting(and technical thread)

 

Based on Allan's website I wrote to Varta for their comments.........they sent back a catologue. It would be good to hear their technical people engaging in the discussion.................as to why their Silver Dynamic "is not as good as Allan says it is" that would be interesting.

 

If I discount the arguments in favour of the Silver Dynamic then I am still left with which other battery to choose.I would like to have heard from Varta as to "why Allan is wrong and why their leisure battery is technically more suitable than the Silver Dynamic"

 

So I think I am decided....................anyway Silver Dynamic is a snappy name for a battery and they are a really nice colour rather than black !!!!!

 

[Guest Joe90]

I had a Bosch S5 battery that gave up the ghost after just 14 months, and quite suddenly, no problem I thought it's got a 5 year warranty, and I have the receipt clearly dated, and with my Rapidos number plate, both the supplier ( The RAC ) nor Bosch wanted to know..................they found some wriggle room, that the battery was supplied and fitted by the RAC to the previous owner of the van a few months before I bought it :-(

 

Perhaps it was a Friday afternoon battery, but it didn't inspire me to buy another Bosch, warranty or not.

[Brambles]

webby1 - 2015-08-19 9:56 AM

 

About to buy new batteries so this is a very interesting(and technical thread)

 

Based on Allan's website I wrote to Varta for their comments.........they sent back a catologue. It would be good to hear their technical people engaging in the discussion.................as to why their Silver Dynamic "is not as good as Allan says it is" that would be interesting.

 

If I discount the arguments in favour of the Silver Dynamic then I am still left with which other battery to choose.I would like to have heard from Varta as to "why Allan is wrong and why their leisure battery is technically more suitable than the Silver Dynamic"

 

So I think I am decided....................anyway Silver Dynamic is a snappy name for a battery and they are a really nice colour rather than black !!!!!

 

Hi. The Varta dual purpose flooded is also silver in colour so that solves the asthetics for you. LOL

 

[StuartO]

Brambles - 2015-08-19 9:54 AM

 

hi again, you are misled on so many counts its really difficult to construct a response.

Try reading my response above again, but this time put more trust in what I am actually saying instead of reading with the view it is all wrong. Then maybe you might understand.

 

The Varta SD flooded is NOT SEALED. The Varta Blue and Black use the same plate technology.

I agree the grids might have extremely high corrosion resistance, but the lead paste is what does the real work when discharging and it sulphates, oxidises and erodes over time and use. It is a Starter Battery and whilst twice the cycle life of a conventional starter it is not as good as a Varta Dual purpose flooded in a cyclic appication .... and is around the same price.

 

I really respect your knowedge on systems and chargers, one of the most useful chaps to have on the forums because of your experience of them. I just strongly feel you have been misled when it comes to the Varta SD.

 

Does it matter whether your definition of "sealed" is slightly different than Alan's?

 

Does it matter whether a battery is sold primarily as a "starter" battery if it also has value as a leisure battery?

 

It's clearly important to avoid buying a cheap starter battery for use as a leisure battery but are you saying the Varta Silver falls into this same category?

 

Please try to see the positives in Alan's posting, so we can get the value of the expertise which both of you clearly have.

[aandncaravan]

Stuart0, Exactly what I was trying to say. Why couldn't I say it as well as that.

Great summary, so I will rest it here, thank you.

 

 

[Brambles]

For me the summary is the Varta dual purpose is more suited to cyclic use then the SD flooded for effectively the same cost.

I shall leave it there as anymore I say is just a repeating what I have already said.

[Derek Uzzell]

For some additional light reading, this is the December 2014 forum thread that originally started the Varta Silver Dynamic battery is ‘best’ discussion...

 

https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Leisure-Battery-choice-and-usage-on-holiday-/36790/

[webby1]

That is why a response from Varta would be really helpful.

 

As I said they just sent me a catalogue and stated that for leisure use they recommended their leisure battery???

 

I would love to hear from one of their techies that they have read Allan's views on the Silver Dynamic but they still recommend the LFD 90 for leisure use............BECAUSE.

 

Just calling it a leisure battery is not really enough.

[Tracker]

Here are a few personal observations and opinions based on no technical knowledge whatsoever but years of practical experience.

 

I've been motor caravanning for over 50 years and over that time I have had many vans with two (or three) batteries, one for the engine and one (or two) for the habitation.

 

Engine batteries have proven to be remarkably resilient over the years with surprisingly few ever needing to be replaced.

 

Habitation batteries however have been an absolute pain in bum with almost every van I have ever had needing new one(s) at some point in time.

 

Far and away the best and most reliable service I have had from so called leisure betteries has been from starter batteries used as leisure betteries and the worst service has come from using alleged leisure batteries most of which were not cheap and generally cost more than similar capacity starter batteries.

 

Some of these failures may well have resulted from poor charging regimes and this aspect does not seem to have improved in newer vans with a low alternator charge rate to prevent gassing but at the cost of poorly charged batteries that are prone to plate sulphation.

 

Can't speak for built in chargers as we don't use EHU.

 

Apart from Halfords who were very good with two warranty failures some years ago everyone else seems to issue warranties that are worthless. But Halfords batteries are now ridiculously expensive for what they are.

 

So when I need new leisure batteries I will once again look to buy good quality engine batteries - like the Bosch!

 

But that is just a personal view - others will no doubt disagree - but please do so politely!

[Derek Uzzell]

webby1

 

Varta and Bosch website’s both have “Leisure” sections

 

http://www.varta-automotive.com/en-gb/products/leisure

 

http://de.bosch-automotive.com/en/parts/parts_and_accessories/specials_1/leisure/batteries_6/batteries_leisure_special_parts

 

and these list the applications that the company considers each range of batteries suitable for.

 

Obviously I don’t know exactly how you framed your inquiry to Varta, but their website indicates that (ignoring ithe "Deep Cycle” 6V range) there are three “Professional” 12V ranges - “Dual Purpose”, Dual Purpose AGM” and “Deep Cycle AGM” - that Varta say are designed for with motorhomes in mind having (respectively) increasing energy requirements, plus a starter battery aimed at small outboard-motor boats.

 

None of the batteries in the “Leisure” section of Varta’s website is referred to specifically as a “leisure battery” but it’s plain that Varta markets the ranges that include “motorhome” in the suitability description as what motorcaravanners refer to as ‘leisure batteries’. Conversely, in Varta and Bosch’s descriptions of the Silver Dynamic and S5 ranges there is no mention of motorhomes, nor that these battery ranges are designed to be suitable for ‘leisure’ applications, whereas the ability of Silver Dynamic and S5 batteries to reliably start a vehicle is strongly emphasised.

 

It would be very optimistic to expect a Varta technician to comment on Allans’s views - you’ve seen what’s happened in this thread and in the earlier one I’ve just given a link to. You have the Varta brochure and access to Varta’s website, and these (as far as I can see) make it clear which of the battery ranges Varta say have been designed for motorhome-leisure purposes and which for vehicle starting. You’ve been told by Varta that a ‘leisure battery’ should be chosen for ‘leisure’ applications (which is logical) and it would be peculiar if a Varta representative was prepared to advise otherwise.

[Colin Leake]

Tracker - 2015-08-19 4:42 PM

 

Here are a few personal observations and opinions based on no technical knowledge whatsoever but years of practical experience.

 

I've been motor caravanning for over 50 years and over that time I have had many vans with two (or three) batteries, one for the engine and one (or two) for the habitation.

 

Engine batteries have proven to be remarkably resilient over the years with surprisingly few ever needing to be replaced.

 

Habitation batteries however have been an absolute pain in bum with almost every van I have ever had needing new one(s) at some point in time.

 

Far and away the best and most reliable service I have had from so called leisure betteries has been from starter batteries used as leisure betteries and the worst service has come from using alleged leisure batteries most of which were not cheap and generally cost more than similar capacity starter batteries.

 

Some of these failures may well have resulted from poor charging regimes and this aspect does not seem to have improved in newer vans with a low alternator charge rate to prevent gassing but at the cost of poorly charged batteries that are prone to plate sulphation.

 

Can't speak for built in chargers as we don't use EHU.

 

Apart from Halfords who were very good with two warranty failures some years ago everyone else seems to issue warranties that are worthless. But Halfords batteries are now ridiculously expensive for what they are.

 

So when I need new leisure batteries I will once again look to buy good quality engine batteries - like the Bosch!

 

But that is just a personal view - others will no doubt disagree - but please do so politely!

 

50 years Tracker you've worn well looking at you picky!

 

[aandncaravan]

We have been contacted by Bosch. The first contact pointed out that they have specific battery ranges and while there might be significant overlap it was confusing for the buyer to suggest that one type is used as another.

 

It was primarily that we were confusing their marketing not a Technical agree/disagree.

 

 

We later got a call from a technician who said that we should be recommending the Bosch S6 AGM battery for use as a Motorhome habitation battery as it was a much more capable battery than the S5 as it had both high Silver, Powerframe and AGM.

 

We had quite a long discussion, he clearly was a very Technical guy. However, he did not have a clue about the Motorhome environment.

 

When I pointed out that Motorhomes have around 200 variations of Charger/Supplies and one of them had a fixed 14.8v output, he quite correctly pointed out it would damage an AGM battery. We said he was close with the word 'damage' because the one we saw had exploded.

We then ran through the various charger types and output voltages, including the power supply types with fixed 12.8v and the quite common low power (12amp) 13.8v charger, etc.

 

We talked about Inverters, Solar and B2B's. He was amazed at how complex 12v had become in a Motorhome. He seemed to view it as a bigger version of a 1980's Caravan.

He acknowledged that without an AGM optimised charger AGM batteries were unlikely to be a good choice in a Motorhome.

 

He was proposing the S6 AGM as being superior to the Banner Running Bull without understanding the environment.

Bosch still propose AGM batteries as 'leisure' appropriate when they will rarely be the best choice. In some cases an extremely poor one!!

 

I would suggest that this doesn't necessarily mean the marketing department always gets it right? Just because Bosch, and Banner although they now have warnings on the website, propose a battery for a market it does not necessarily mean it is suitable.

That may also mean that just because a battery is not targeted at a market that it is also not suitable as such?

 

 

We did not ask what he thought about our presentation of the S5 and he didn't offer.

 

It made me very aware that even if you got to talk to an expert on his subject it didn't necessarily mean you would gain any useful information.

 

Just depends on who you talk to I guess.

 

What would be good is a Bosch technician with a long History of Motorhoming.

 

Not long after that we were contacted by Sales people from 2 other manufacturers, one of whom was Banner.

 

 

[Tracker]

Colin Leake - 2015-08-19 7:05 PM

50 years Tracker you've worn well looking at you picky!

 

Thanks Colin - but you don't know when the piccy was taken !

 

I sort of converted my first van - an ex GPO Morris Minor with rubber wings - remember them? into a camping / fishing / love nest in 1963 and have never stopped from there apart from a few foolish years in a tent and a few more even more foolish towing a caravan with a car !

 

So all in all 52 years of camping and gradually increasing the level of comfort that it takes to rough it smoothly!

[Derek Uzzell]

aandncaravan - 2015-08-19 7:20 PM

 

...Not long after that we were contacted by Sales people from 2 other manufacturers, one of whom was Banner.

 

 

Allan

 

Was your conversation with the Banner sales representative productive, please?

 

At a 2014 NEC Show I had a long discussion with representatives of Banner and C-Tek about charging the Banner “Power Bull” AGM battery that had been fitted to my Hobby motorhome when its original Exide gel battery had failed when I was in France. I remember the Banner rep being sniffy about Varta batteries and the conversation rapidly becoming very technical moving into high-voltage charging regimens that had little to do with motorcaravanning applications.

 

As far as I’m concerned deliberately opting for a gel or AGM battery for leisure use in a motorhome is very questionable unless orientation is a factor (eg. the battery needs to be installed on its side) though motorhome handbooks insisting that leisure-battery replacement be on a like-for-like basis is bound to encourage people to replace gel with gel or AGM with AGM.

 

I’ve no problem with using a battery sold for vehicle-starting as a motorhome’s leisure battery. However, it will be evident from postings earlier in this thread that motorcaravanners requirements for 12V power differ substantially and, while a single Varta SD 100Ah battery will be plenty adequate for many people (including me) some motorcaravanners may want/need more. I don’t think your views are ’new thinking’ exactly, but they do conflict with ‘old thinking’ that strongly recommends that starter-batteries should be avoided for providing leisure-vehicle domestic 12V power.

 

The latest issue of MMM magazine includes several battery-related articles, including one about a motorcaravanner choosing to have a lithium-iron battery installed at a cost of well over £2000 for the battery alone. You might want to consider submitting a piece to one of the major UK motorhome magazines that would reach a wider audience and perhaps provoke an official response from the battery manufacturers. At the moment (as far as I’m aware) there is just the information on your own website and forum discussions with contradicting opinions.

[Brambles]

Yuasa have a lot of information on their website now regarding diffrent types of batteries and provides a lot of useful information and knowledge.

http://www.yuasa.co.uk/info/technical/understanding-leisure-batteries/

 

Not just the page linked but also look through menu at other topics.... A lot of reading but most of it fairly informative.

[StuartO]

Brambles - 2015-08-19 3:46 PM

 

For me the summary is the Varta dual purpose is more suited to cyclic use then the SD flooded for effectively the same cost.

I shall leave it there as anymore I say is just a repeating what I have already said.

 

For me this has been an excellent Thread and thank you Brambles for your helpful contribution.

 

I can see that in isolation of MH-specific considerations, the Dual Purpose batterywould be better for cyclical use because it's an AGM - but there has been mention of the difficulty of charging AGMs in a MH and that the SD battery will charge more quickly and easily, so doesn't that override the general point about an AGM being better for cyclical use?

 

I think we have learned that manufacturers, even their technicl people, don't necessarily understand motorhome charging systems and the variations of use of MHs which affect charging, like EHU, solar panel, regular running or static use etc.

 

I'm not choosing between experts because I think you all have advised us well but so far I find Alan's recommendations for using the Varta SD convincing for my particular pattern of light 12v use combined with solar panels and a Schaudt Electroblok. Thanks again for your contribution.

[Brambles]

StuartO - 2015-08-20 9:21 AM

 

Brambles - 2015-08-19 3:46 PM

 

For me the summary is the Varta dual purpose is more suited to cyclic use then the SD flooded for effectively the same cost.

I shall leave it there as anymore I say is just a repeating what I have already said.

 

For me this has been an excellent Thread and thank you Brambles for your helpful contribution.

 

I can see that in isolation of MH-specific considerations, the Dual Purpose batterywould be better for cyclical use because it's an AGM - but there has been mention of the difficulty of charging AGMs in a MH and that the SD battery will charge more quickly and easily, so doesn't that override the general point about an AGM being better for cyclical use?

 

I think we have learned that manufacturers, even their technicl people, don't necessarily understand motorhome charging systems and the variations of use of MHs which affect charging, like EHU, solar panel, regular running or static use etc.

 

I'm not choosing between experts because I think you all have advised us well but so far I find Alan's recommendations for using the Varta SD convincing for my particular pattern of light 12v use combined with solar panels and a Schaudt Electroblok. Thanks again for your contribution.

 

I think there may be a little confusion here.

Just to clarify Varta offer both a Flooded and an AGM version of leisure battery.

My comprisons have been with the flooded version ( Flooded Dual Purpose) which is around the same price (edit) as the flooded SD.

[Brian Kirby]

StuartO - 2015-08-20 9:21 AM............For me this has been an excellent Thread and thank you Brambles for your helpful contribution.

 

......................................I think we have learned that manufacturers, even their technicl people, don't necessarily understand motorhome charging systems and the variations of use of MHs which affect charging, like EHU, solar panel, regular running or static use etc.

 

I'm not choosing between experts because I think you all have advised us well ....................... Thanks again for your contribution.

Hear, hear! Very much agree with this Stuart, and we shouldn't forget Aandy of A&N, whose contributions have exposed some very interesting issues.

 

The first, for me, is the revelation that the battery manufacturers may not understand this sector of their market that well, and that the term "leisure", when applied to a battery, is a bit of a catch-all that probably doesn't reflect the differing demands to which the batteries are subjected. After all, there is quite a difference between the battery bank installed in a boat, where the same batteries are frequently used to start what may be only an auxiliary motor, installed in a caravan, where it will be more or less permanently on EHU when in use, and in a motorhome, where it may never seen an EHU, and rely on charging form solar and/or the vehicle alternator (not itself optimised to charge a leisure battery).

 

The second, of which I have become aware over the past 10 years, is wide variation in the ways motorhomes are used. Of contributors to this thread, I would place myself at one end of that range, generally using campsites with EHU, and probably Rich (tracker) at the other end, with his almost total reliance on non-mains charging methods. Our respective batteries lead very different lives.

 

The third is the variation in charging systems installed in motorhomes, where even the most recent types of smart chargers may not be optimal for all battery types, and where some batteries may require a charging regime that would damage other equipment (fridges, LED lights, etc), that is not designed to cope with the higher Voltages necessary to optimise battery performance.

 

The fourth is that motorhome manufacturers seem to lack some of the technical expertise needed to specify the optimum alternator size (with suitable control for charging the leisure battery), the optimal type of leisure battery, and the optimal type of mains charger to integrate all three. And, all that is before one throws solar into the mix with its ranges of controllers and the fact that they are often an aftermarket fit item with insufficiently knowledgeable people making the installations.

 

It seems to me that all the players are working in "silos", with inadequate cross-border contact. I think Derek's suggestion that Aandy consider composing an article to provoke, one hopes, the other players to enter the debate would be at least extremely interesting and possibly highly productive - especially if it got the technical designers out of their silos and into contact with each other and users. We might then all come to understand better the limitations of the various bits of equipment we rely upon to maintain our 12V power source, and how to get the best equipment for our mode of use.