aandncaravan Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Brambles, I owe you an apology. I went onto the Varta and Bosch web sites last night to prove you wrong about the Varta Black and Blue ranges being completely different technology to the Varta Silver Powerframe. I was humbled to see that you were right and almost all the Varta/Bosch battery ranges seem to now have Powerframe. I have been guilty of what I accuse others of, in spouting opinion on out of date advice. Sorry, particularly so as I do rate your expertise which is clearly of a high level. When I created the battery page at the end of 2012, nothing in the market place approached the efficiency of the Power Frame Silver which was only available on the high end S5 and S6. It is fantastic to see it is now present on the lower ranges. We started repairing Caravan and Motorhome chargers at the beginning of 2012 as opposed to just swapping out the expensive boxes in the Motorhomes and Caravans we worked on. After a while it became obvious that there was some evidence to suggest the same components were failing in similar charger units. At first we jumped to the conclusion that there was a weakness in the designs. But looking more closely across the different manufacturers it became obvious that the design was good, but that the Chargers were being taken well outside the design limits. At this time there was no link by anyone on batteries and Charger failure as the cause, but we quickly joined the dots. We started to cut open the batteries that had obviously placed an abnormal load on the charger to see what had failed inside the battery. This wasn't about trying to understand batteries, as they were of no interest at all. I just wanted to understand better why the chargers were failing so we could get them to last longer. Once we sorted out a way of cutting them without Acid going everywhere (don't use a Grinder with a cutting Disc!!) it revealed a lot. A real eye opener. Whereas we were impressed by the Exide G80 construction we were horrified by the majority that we opened up. Not just the damage inside from fragile, crumbling plates, but the poor construction on the budgets. Around the same time we also noticed a lot of oversized battery banks fitted in Motorhomes so put advice on this on the web site, plus the importance to use only quality batteries. This was about June 2012? The Exide Blue dynamic failed in our first Citroen Picasso, so I cut that open and was amazed to see, not only better plate construction, but fatter plates than most Leisure batteries we had seen. I went online to get another Blue Dynamic and saw the 'new' Bosch S5 Silver Dyamic. Read about it and was impressed. Got one for the Picasso and a 'Motorhome sized' one to cut open. Perfect!! Plates that were very close to the best of the normal Leisure batteries, not the Exide G80 or Sonnenshein, but then those two are a bit special and expensive. Yes, I know the theory says the S5 doesn't and all the advertising hype says they can't, but they were very close to the best in the under £150 bracket. The Bosch S5 was a battery I could recommend that was charger friendly long life, efficient and cheap!! It's efficiency, particularly as it aged, was important for charger life. It also had the endurance to power the Inverters that were becoming the 'thing to have'. Things have moved on from there, but because restoring 1950's Citroen H vans then became a Hobby that got out of control into a business I have not taken the time to go back and ensure I have kept up to date. The website that grew out of my Citroen H van hobby ( http://www.citroenhyonline.co.uk/hy-history.php ) is now the biggest H van information site in the World. Some of you who have read our A and N Caravan web site might notice a common thread of sharing info? You will notice too that it is BIG. It took a lot of time. So Derek and Brambles you are right, if the LFD 90 has got Powerframe then it most likely will be a better choice if it has the heritage of the Varta SD. If it has a CCA of 800 it should also cope with smaller Inverters. Having seen inside a Varta Silver D, and many of the other Leisure batteries available around the end of 2012, I honestly would choose the VSD for my Motorhome Habitation area. As it has an additional benefit often not taken into account : If you have the same H3, 100Ah battery under the bonnet that most Fiat/Peugeot/Mercs take, plus the same H3 in the Habitation area you have a standby Starter battery. You can also swap the 2 batteries around every couple of years to balance the wear. You even have an emergency habitation battery under the bonnet!! This sounds like a daft thing to do (and probably is) but we have seen a VSD start a Fiat 2.8JTD when registering only 12.4v, which according to the charts is pretty low. So as long as you don't run the habitation battery too low (say 12.65v?) before you swap it with the one under the bonnet, you should be ok?. I really, really wouldn't choose a budget 'Leisure' battery. Derek, the discussions with Banner where neither fruitful or not, just an exchange of point of view. We have sent articles to the Caravan Club, MMM and various other publications without any response. We have been banned from two of the forums because they saw our attempts to publicise our Battery Technology page as 'business generating' when anyone who has been to the website pages on Nordelettronica, Battery Faults, Reverse Polarity, Schaudt (which tells you how to remove/reinstall an Elektroblock) etc will see it is about sharing information. Same applies to the Citroen HY Online website.. I think if any business does it, it will be seen as having an ulterior motive. I will try and update the Battery technology page with more current info. Thank you to everyone for a good argument and the kind words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 aandncaravan - 2015-08-20 2:21 PM I really, really wouldn't choose a budget 'Leisure' battery. Why not? Mine works a treat, holds power, and still has another 20 months left on the warranty. I also know the place i purchased from honour their warranties as a friend had the identical battery (we bought them as a pair). His stopped holding charge due to lack of use of his van which was left standing throughout winter and he forgot to take the battery off and keep it on charge. So his own fault.....but the dealer exchanged it for a replacement, without question and no fuss. Some folk seem to get a tad manic obsessive over battery 'specs' and waste an awful lot of energy trawling through figures instead of getting a battery, hooking the thing up and enjoying touring! Talking of which....it seems the OP's 'batteries' have run out of energy altogether long ago. Maybe he's gone solar....or stuck a windmill on the roof! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunseekers2 Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 What an informative thread now the 'CRAP' has been sorted the moderators really need to get a hold of this. As an engineer with quite a bit of knowledge wiggly amps is a dark art but this thread is opening this out. Also with civilised contributors with differing opinions not at each others throats this lends a more balanced view to the discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webby1 Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Yes this thread has been really informative AND despite the differing views, kept to a respectful level unlike certain other Forums I belong to. I am new to this site and welcome the style, which is as I say not unpleasant but equally not full of personal banter between mates that can leave others feeling squeezed out. Thankfully members seem more interested in their motorhomes than having thinly veiled digs, either at each other, or at migrants,lefties and the usual suspects. Was about to get the SD batteries but if the LFD90 have the same technology although 10Ah less, I might now consider them. In any case I suppose and likely warranty would be void if using the SD for a leisure battery. Thanks all for the info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 Sunseekers2 - 2015-08-20 5:02 PM What an informative thread now the 'CRAP' has been sorted the moderators really need to get a hold of this. As an engineer with quite a bit of knowledge wiggly amps is a dark art but this thread is opening this out. Also with civilised contributors with differing opinions not at each others throats this lends a more balanced view to the discussion. Non-wiggly amps can get pretty complicated too these days. I don't think it helps to knock the "moderators", as if there were an army of them, an infinite resource to which we somehow have a human right of access. There is but one and he does a good job - even if, being only one, with a day job to do as well, he simply cannot be checking all the threads all the time So sometimes there is a delayed response. Live with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunseekers2 Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 StuartO - 2015-08-21 8:14 AM Sunseekers2 - 2015-08-20 5:02 PM What an informative thread now the 'CRAP' has been sorted the moderators really need to get a hold of this. As an engineer with quite a bit of knowledge wiggly amps is a dark art but this thread is opening this out. Also with civilised contributors with differing opinions not at each others throats this lends a more balanced view to the discussion. Non-wiggly amps can get pretty complicated too these days. I don't think it helps to knock the "moderators", as if there were an army of them, an infinite resource to which we somehow have a human right of access. There is but one and he does a good job - even if, being only one, with a day job to do as well, he simply cannot be checking all the threads all the time So sometimes there is a delayed response. Live with it. Didn't take long Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 Hope this is not the start of another cycle of verbal assault and battery which will need to be terminated. Some just get so charged up sometimes its seems to blow a fuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunseekers2 Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 Brambles - 2015-08-21 10:28 AM Hope this is not the start of another cycle of verbal assault and battery which will need to be terminated. Some just get so charged up sometimes its seems to blow a fuse. LOL nice one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 It is just one of those subjects that gets people Boiling and they just Gass off without containing what can be quite Acidic comments. From now on, I for one am going to more Positive and less Negative, every Cloud has a Silver lining ad all that ...... I will also take on board all your comments and try to Gel better with the other Forum members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 Take a lead from others and get some powerframe plating to protect yourself against gas and acidity attacks but do bear in mind that as with all things - life is terminal ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 As promised we have revised the web page on 'Battery Technology' with more independent evidence. We have also moderated our view from proposing the Varta Silver Dynamic H3 Starter Battery as a Habitation battery, to proposing the Varta LFD90 Leisure battery as a Starter battery. It really is such a great Starter battery. It has more Cranking Amps/Starting power than a battery we removed from an American Truck based 7 litre, V8 engined Motorhome. The LFD90 Leisure Battery has a Marine Starter rating of 1,000amps at freezing point. An outstanding mid Winter Starter battery yet also one of the best Leisure batteries in the up to £150 bracket. See the pages for why we think this. Thank you to Derek/Brambles for highlighting it to us. The pages still downgrade the importance of Deep Cycling and Cyclic capability because, for many Motorhome owners, it has reduced importance, again see why we believe this. We think more relevant is battery efficiency, temperature tolerance, life, low self discharge, safety, etc However, we have also made suggestions for motorhome owners who live in their vehicle, or greater than '200 days a year' users. The pages provide the information, on areas not always evidenced in some advice, to help people choose a battery that suits their usage pattern. It is still controversial but because battery ranges have evolved/merged, it is less so. See : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/battery-technology.php As always it is not sales based as we don't sell batteries. Please give feedback as it is the discussions/disagreements on this thread that have developed it. The 'Reverse Polarity' page is getting a lot of hits so might also be worth a look? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyfenx Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 I would like to thank A&N for all their hard work and contributions to this debate. I have always used Bosch Starter batteries in my MH Aux Banks - currently 2 x ordinary 110AH. They were fitted in 2008 and still going strong. I must add that one of them was warranty replaced at 1 year due to faulty cell. As A&N say, you realy need starter type batteries if you use an inverter - mine is 1,000W I never use EHU or inbuilt charger, use a CTEK charger during inside winter lay up and have solar panels to take over when MH is outside. I never discharge deeply and always recharge as immediately as possible. Result is 7 years life to date - far exceeding the life the previous owner got with Banners. When they die I will certainly be looking at the Varta H3 or LFD90 if something better hasn't been inverted by then. Thanks again A&N Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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