Mel B Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 I've just been reading an interesting thread on the Swift-Talk forum regarding the above fridge which, I assume, could affect ALL electric only fridge freezers. The issue appears to be that once the ambient temperature IN the van drops below +16deg C the operation of the fridge will be affected and the freezer compartment food will slowly defrost. I've taken the below excepts from the ST forum which were posted by two of the Swift staff in response to queries: Dometic have confirmed that the fridge operation you have described is not something specific to Swift (Autocruise) installations - as with many domestic appliances, if the room the fridge is in, falls to a low temperature, the operation of the fridge can be affected. We hope that keeping the room (motorhome) temperature within the range of +16deg C to +42deg C is acceptable - Dometic tell us these are the optimum conditions for the operation of the fridge. The optimum operating temperature of the fridge unit is between 16-42 degrees Celsius. Outside this range, the performance of the unit is reduced. While the fridge operation is less likely to be affected, the freezer will be. So at 9 degrees, the operation of the unit is affected. While I would not expect that a few hours use at this temperature would have any major affects, a complete night at Christmas (where the highest temperature at night will be but a few degrees) will certainly affect the operation. While the definition of a temperate climate maybe true, I would not expect anyone to sleep in their Grade 2 Panel Van without the heating on, through a complete winters nights. As I understand the system, it is a sliding scale of efficiency, whereby the further you move outside the optimum range, the less likely the system is able to freeze items in the freezer. To read the full thread on Swift-Talk you need to be a member, however if anyone is interested in reading it please PM me and I'll cut and paste it for you (but will NOT post it on this public forum!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 Obviously designed by youngsters who weren't brought up in houses without central heating where the bedroom window had layer ice ice on the inside fist thing in the morning. :D Been in our van when it's been -10 at night never run the heating overnight, what planet do these designers live on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 The situation with domestic fridges and freezers is also this bad! Most (but I stress not all) domestic fridges and freezers will not operate correctly if the temperature of the room they are in falls below something like 15°C. So all of you with fridges and/or freezers in garages and unheated buildings take note. When we wanted fridge and a freezer to go in an unheated out building we could only find one make which was suitable. Check the technical spec very carefully before buying. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 I think that has always been the case with upright freezers but chest ones are OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 As this applies to compressor fridges in this instance I don't see what the problem is. As a compressor fridge is installed totally inside the motorhome and you will be living in the motorhome you're unlikely to let the temperature inside the motorhome (i.e. where the fridge is) drop below 15 deg C. Unless of course your heating fails during a very cold night as ours did a couple of winters ago when temperatures dropped to minus 17 near where we were and we woke to minus 8 inside the camper. The only things that didn't freeze were inside the fridge! Trust me when this occurs you ain't worrying about the contents of the freezer compartment. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gocro Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 This would mean that you will need to have the heating on all day as well as all night,the temp is rarely above 15 in Angleterre.Or so it seems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crinklystarfish Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Dave Newell - 2013-03-04 7:13 AM As this applies to compressor fridges in this instance I don't see what the problem is. As a compressor fridge is installed totally inside the motorhome and you will be living in the motorhome you're unlikely to let the temperature inside the motorhome (i.e. where the fridge is) drop below 15 deg C. Unless of course your heating fails during a very cold night as ours did a couple of winters ago when temperatures dropped to minus 17 near where we were and we woke to minus 8 inside the camper. The only things that didn't freeze were inside the fridge! Trust me when this occurs you ain't worrying about the contents of the freezer compartment. D. Tend to agree - I've noticed my blown-air heating system is rubbish when the ambient temperature is in the 30s too. Seriously though, it seems to me to be a largely academic point. The tech info supplied would seem to indicate that the freezer compartments don't fail totally but operate on a sliding scale of increased inefficiency outside of their designed operating range. Also, because of the heavily insulated qualities of the fridge unit it would take a long time with the 'vans interior temperature being below 16deg to make much real-world difference. Compressor fridges have been around in 'vans, boats, trucks etc for years and there's been no torch-brandishing mobs outraged at a lack of ice cube making capability in winter. We've done loads of winter touring and I've personally never noticed any lack of (compressor) fridge performance. I suppose if you do like to live and sleep in temperatures of single figures, and absolutely can't do without your ice-cubes then you might be in for a rough ride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 crinklystarfish - 2013-03-04 9:54 AM Tend to agree - I've noticed my blown-air heating system is rubbish when the ambient temperature is in the 30s too. Use your van as Sauna then? :D :D :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolero boy Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 I also saw this thread on ST. The issue was around a couple who did not like their heating on at night even during chilly spring/autumn nights. They went to the freezer early one morning (perhaps to remove something for defrosting during the day) and discovered that it had already defrosted. Further, their concern was that this food could then refreeze as the temp in the van rose and the efficiency of the fridge/freezer improved. There was a real possibility of this cycle re-occurring regulary without being noticed along with any associated food health risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 What I fail to understand is why you wouldn't want your heating on overnight when the weather is cold though? All heating systems have an adjustable thermostat so you can set it to a lower than daytime temperature but still maintain a comfortable enough temperature for the nocturnal visits even if its just so you can shake the drips off rather than break them off. I just don't understand spending tens of thousands of pounds on a sophisticated motorhome with a reliable and efficient heating system and switching it all off to suffer low temperatures. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Sorry Dave I don't understand why you would want your heating on at night I never have heating on at night in the van or in the house. In a well insulated van temperature never drops much below 8-10deg which is plenty warm enough when sleeping under a duck or goose down duvet. It's not about saving gas cost of heating the Motorhome is negligible compared to the house (just checked the house usage over the last month £50 a week). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 lennyhb - 2013-03-04 1:30 PM Sorry Dave I don't understand why you would want your heating on at night I never have heating on at night in the van or in the house. In a well insulated van temperature never drops much below 8-10deg which is plenty warm enough when sleeping under a duck or goose down duvet. It's not about saving gas cost of heating the Motorhome is negligible compared to the house (just checked the house usage over the last month £50 a week). Because I like to be comfortable and don't like getting out of bed when the temperature is low and I consider 8-10 deg C low. When we're away and the outside temp is likely to be around zero we leave the heating on overnight set to about 17/18 deg C which we consider to be a comfortable temperature. The heater will cut in as required to maintain that temp and our compressor fridge works perfectly. Each to their own of course but I like to be comfortable. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted March 4, 2013 Author Share Posted March 4, 2013 bolero boy - 2013-03-04 1:15 PM I also saw this thread on ST. The issue was around a couple who did not like their heating on at night even during chilly spring/autumn nights. They went to the freezer early one morning (perhaps to remove something for defrosting during the day) and discovered that it had already defrosted. Further, their concern was that this food could then refreeze as the temp in the van rose and the efficiency of the fridge/freezer improved. There was a real possibility of this cycle re-occurring regulary without being noticed along with any associated food health risk. I think that's the point the original poster on ST was making - the HEALTH danger - it isn't good to defrost and refreeze food, regardless of what it is, and if a fridge freezer is likely to do this it should be CLEARLY SHOWN/MENTIONED to the prospective purchaser BEFORE they buy the vehicle as it may not suit their lifestyle. Until I read the thread on ST I was unaware of the limitations/implications of a Waeco electric fridge freezer, the only concern I'd ever had about them was their battery drain potential, the fact that they don't work as well as a traditional 3-way fridge freezer never crossed my mind. Personally IMV they appear to be not much better than an electric cool box! Dave - we DO NOT have our heating on overnight - ever, not at home or in the van! Not because we can't afford to but because we have nice snug duvets! When we go away we take stuff in the freezer to eat as/when we want to, NOT when the fridge dictates it's gonna defrost! Having to have the heating on to keep the fridge freezer 'happy' is just plain stupid! *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maggyd Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 As we havent used our new van yet so dont know how the Waeco fridge will work when the temps; drop! but I do know that the upright fridge/freezer I had in my shed that is outside my back door didnt work properly when the temps were low I would go in and see the red light on! and looking it up in the Hotpoint user instructions it did state that if the ambient temp; dropped to below 10deg the freezer wouldnt freeze! so Im not surprised by this revelation. But as they is no way I would sleep with the temp as low as even 15deg I wont complain until Im affected. :-D Apart from anything else my dogs would be coming in under my duvet if they were cold (lol) and there is no room in a 4 foot wide bed >:-) I might yet be kicking O.H out into the single!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Mel B - 2013-03-04 3:50 PM bolero boy - 2013-03-04 1:15 PM I also saw this thread on ST. The issue was around a couple who did not like their heating on at night even during chilly spring/autumn nights. They went to the freezer early one morning (perhaps to remove something for defrosting during the day) and discovered that it had already defrosted. Further, their concern was that this food could then refreeze as the temp in the van rose and the efficiency of the fridge/freezer improved. There was a real possibility of this cycle re-occurring regulary without being noticed along with any associated food health risk. I think that's the point the original poster on ST was making - the HEALTH danger - it isn't good to defrost and refreeze food, regardless of what it is, and if a fridge freezer is likely to do this it should be CLEARLY SHOWN/MENTIONED to the prospective purchaser BEFORE they buy the vehicle as it may not suit their lifestyle. Until I read the thread on ST I was unaware of the limitations/implications of a Waeco electric fridge freezer, the only concern I'd ever had about them was their battery drain potential, the fact that they don't work as well as a traditional 3-way fridge freezer never crossed my mind. Personally IMV they appear to be not much better than an electric cool box! Dave - we DO NOT have our heating on overnight - ever, not at home or in the van! Not because we can't afford to but because we have nice snug duvets! When we go away we take stuff in the freezer to eat as/when we want to, NOT when the fridge dictates it's gonna defrost! Having to have the heating on to keep the fridge freezer 'happy' is just plain stupid! *-) OK Mel ,no need to shout. I didn't suggest anyone should have their heating on over night just to keep the freezer happy did I? What I said is we put our heating on overnight if temperatures are likely to be low and I struggle to understand why anyone else doesn't do the same. That's not saying they're wrong or I'm right at all, what it is saying is I personally do not understand it. We don't normally have our heating at home on overnight either, simply because several tens of tonnes of masonry has a high thermal mass compared to a tin box. But when the outside temperature drops below zero for extended periods we do have it on 24/7 for the duration but turn the stat down at night and when we leave the house. We have done this for a number of years and yet our gas bill is not excessive (£34 a month if memory serves as British Gas have just reduced our monthly DD). In edit: correction £60 a month but that is both gas and electric. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maggyd Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 There are a few views on for and against http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/12-volt-fridge/30468/ We will just wait and see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Dave Newell - 2013-03-04 4:00 PM We have done this for a number of years and yet our gas bill is not excessive (£34 a month if memory serves as British Gas have just reduced our monthly DD). In edit: correction £60 a month but that is both gas and electric. D. I reckon you must be by-passing the meter ours is £120 a mouth but having read our meters I'm expecting it to go up to at least £160 a month. :D :D :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted March 4, 2013 Author Share Posted March 4, 2013 Dave, I am not saying that not having the heating on is any more right (?) than you having it on, what I am trying to say is that it is ridiculous that in order for the fridge to work correctly you have to have it on! 8-) I am so glad I've got a 'normal' one! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 since we installed the wood burner last year gas bill fallen considerably.....Then daughter decided to move back from Uni for last year and its on all day..I cant say anything as she bully's moi :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 What is so ridiculous about having the interior of your motorhome at a slightly cooler than daytime but still comfortable temperature? Not just so your freezer works but because its comfortable? A vitally important point about thesee fridge freezers is that while 16 to 42 deg C is the optimum operating range it does not mean that it will suddenly stop working at all and defrost rapidly as soon as the temp drops below 16. What will happen, as Crinkly mentioned earlier is that the efficiency will drop off as the temperature drops but as the temperature is dropping so the temperature differential between the inside of the freezer and the ambient reduces. This will mean the freezer compartment will lose heat at a lesser rate and therefore take longer to completely thaw out. One possible reason that this particular couples freezer allowed its contents to defrost is that it was set too high to begin with. Most compresor fridge freezers have a single control for temperature and it takes time and experience to establish the optimum setting where food stays cold in the fridge but not frozen and food in the freezer stays well frozen. For example if I set my fridge thermostat to give a 5 degree temp in the fridge it might give -5 in the freezer. A different model with a better freezer compartment might give minus 12 in the freezer with plus five in the fridge. When the ambient temperature gets into the range where efficiency is compromised the freezer temp may increase by five degrees perhaps. In this scenario fridge 1 will have a freezer temp of zero but fridge 2 will still be at least minus 7 if not lower. When we look to buy domestic fridges and freezers we look at the specs of the relevant models and choose accordingly but when we buy a motorhome (well those who buy factory made motorhomes) we get pretty much what we're given. does anyoe ask what the various pieces of equipment fitted can do? How long will it take the heating system to raise the internal temp from zero to 20 deg C for example? What efficiency rating does the fridge/freezer have? etc. Does anyone look at the individual spec sheets of the equipment fitted to the motorhome they're buying? And in view of the number of people who didn't know about using winter covers on a 3 way fridge in ambient temps below 10 deg C I doubrt it very much. By the way, do you consider this a failing of a three way fridge or just a feature? D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolero boy Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 lennyhb - 2013-03-04 5:31 PM I reckon you must be by-passing the meter ours is £120 a mouth but having read our meters I'm expecting it to go up to at least £160 a month. :D :D :D ....then you need to get it checked I would think. We have a 4-bedroomed detached house which costs around £90 a month for gas and electric. Yes, i know we are away a lot but approaching £2k per annum for heating/power seems excessive. Perhaps your house is nowhere near are well insulated as your motorhome? Lenny, perhaps your signature should read.................... Must stop replying to these posts & do some work I need the dosh so I can afford to heat the house! ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted March 4, 2013 Author Share Posted March 4, 2013 There's nothing ridiculous about having the interior of your motorhome 'comfortable' during the day and overnight by having the heating on if that's what you want, but it IS ridiculous that it is a necessity to do so to keep your equipment working properly! 8-) (Your fridge of course not your personal equipment! :D :$ ). Comparing it to the 3-way fridge needing winter covers isn't the same as simply putting on the covers which sorts out the problem and is a purpose made item, you don't have to have the heating on overnight because of it. The thing that I am trying to get across is that people are buying MHs/PVCs with these fridge freezers but are not being told of the limitations of them, especially with the very real health implications (food poisoning etc) - if people are made aware they can ensure that they take measures to minimise it. How are your batteries Dave - have they recovered from the 'discharge' problem which Clive mentioned? :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Wrong Dave Mel, if you'd read Clive's post closely you'd havee seen he said "dave's" van was a transit, mine is an Iveco and I've not had a power problem I couldn't resolve myself. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gocro Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Waeco CR80 fridge freezer thread!!! Can we get back on track? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maggyd Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 I think that this man on Swift talk had probably just switched on his van fridge to put in some ice cream over Christmas, if he had been running it for a few days before hand I dont think he would have had this problem with melting ice cream :-S the freezer part would have been cold enough t keep the ice cream solid had he been running it as normal especially as the ambient temperature would have kept it frozen on its own!! Now if he had the problem in the summer it would be a different matter!! Im not worried about a 12volt fridge running the batteries down, as with two large capacity (im not up on facts and figures ) and a solar panel fitted!!, and these fridges are supposed to be low consumption! ! if in this country we are usually on hook up and abroad hopefully !! and we never had a problem with the batteries on the old van being kept topped up with the solar panel we should be O.K , we were looking at these fridges on the Waeco website and they arent cheap! The only worry I do have is! if they are noisy as I have heard somewhere else IT WILL BE GETTING SWITCHED OFF OVERNIGHT. Wont bother O.H as he has hearing aids that can be switched off but me I hear everything. >:-) :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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