Motorhome Tax??

[Keith T]

Have just been reading a letter in the October MMM which says that Road fund for new MHs will be £450 pa for the first 5 years as from April 2017...is this so, as surely this will significantly reduce the number of new vans ordered, On that basis, even if one is purchased at present, the delivery is likely to be after that date so it would be caught in that arrangement.

 

 

I have to say that on the basis of most of our use, at say 6k miles pa, it makes the whole thing ridiculously and unnecessarily expensive - we do after all contribute greatly to any local area when using sites in the UK..

 

I have not seen anything about this anywhere else, and wonder if any contributors to the forum know anything more??

[Guest pelmetman]

I doubt if folk who can afford 40k 50k+ for a new camper, will get much sympathy over a 450 quid road tax bill :-| ..........

 

 

[Robinhood]

...the proposals from 2017 certainly contain the taxing of cars over a purchase price of £40000 (a value which would be exceeded by most motorcaravans) at a rate of £450 for the first five years.

 

AFAICS, however, the tax proposals only amend the legislative schedule that currently applies to cars in that manner. Motorcaravans are generally taxed in the Private Light Goods, or Private Heavy Goods category, which is covered by different schedules (and, whilst I'm sure there will be increases to the rates in these, I don't think there are such dramatic changes planned).

 

However, since the devil will be in the detail and I can't as yet check the full, amended legislation, there may be other factors at work. (For instance, whilst the current version could be interpreted that a motorcaravan should be taxed under the car schedule, it currently isn't. I can't see that the wording involved is going to change, so unless the custom and practice differs, motorcaravans will still be subject to a tax regime other than the £450 for the first five years (i.e. probably still PLG or PHG) whatever the amended costs of those are..

[Brock]

I've only been able to find the policy paper from the Government and this makes it clear the changes relate to 'Purchasers of cars first registered from 1 April 2017 onwards'. I doubt new law will be required; I understand the current law allows Government to change the VED so it will simply need to amend the schedule of charges for cars.

 

I'd be interested in whether MMM responded to the letter.

 

 

[Keith T]

Brock - 2016-10-06 6:47 PM

 

I've only been able to find the policy paper from the Government and this makes it clear the changes relate

I'd be interested in whether MMM responded to the letter.

 

 

They certainly added no comment on the letters page, and I haven't seen anything else anywhere, not even the Caravan Club, who claim to be anting to do more for the ever increasing number of motorhomers who are members of CC.

 

There seems to be nothing clear anywhere and even Goggling it doesn't actually clarify anything.

 

I raised it today with one of the sale staff at a dealership, and he seemed unaware, and was not able to get anything concrete.

[RogerThat]

Why oh why are we still paying road tax???

 

They should just put the road tax on the price of fuel.

 

That way, nobody can evade it and the people who drive the most miles pay the most tax.

 

Am I missing something? Is this too simple a solution?

[Bulletguy]

 

Since the introduction of £0 ved for "green" cars and increasing sales, Government will find a means of plugging that deficit and the latest are the changes to the 2017 rules. As has been pointed out this only applies to cars but Government but i don't expect it to stop at that. The new ved rules are based not just on emissions but also cost price. The Tesla S whilst £0 ved in the first year increases to £310.......despite being an all electric car purely because of the £60k cost price.

 

As Pelmetman said, why would an increase on ved worry anyone shelling out £50+k for a shiny new camper or motorhome? It's not there yet.....but my betting is it won't be long before it is.

[Bulletguy]

RogerThat - 2016-10-06 8:03 PM

 

Why oh why are we still paying road tax???

 

They should just put the road tax on the price of fuel.

 

That way, nobody can evade it and the people who drive the most miles pay the most tax.

 

Am I missing something? Is this too simple a solution?

 

I agree with you. It's a much fairer system and one used by many European countries......yet their fuel price is STILL lower than ours. UK Gov draws massive amounts of tax.....60% fuel duty plus 20% vat on every litre of fuel.

[hagrid]

If you are buying a Motorhome used, you should check the V5, to ensure it was registered as a motor caravan PLG or PHGV, if new ensure that the dealer does not enter the emission figure on the registration form, if they do, it will be registered under the car tax scale and cost significantly more, I understand that once registered with an emission figure, they will not change the taxation class.

[Guest machra]

While a lot of the literature published says the new rule apply to cars, I have seen references to vehicles. I also thought I remembered the caravan club publishing an item on this in their magazine. From what I remember if the certificate of conformity document of a motor home quotes the co figure in it then the vehicle will fall into the new scheme. If the document doesn't then the vehicle will still be taxed at the PLC rate. Obviously we are only talking about vehicles first registered after April 2017.

[Derek Uzzell]

There’s a letter (“Tax too high”) on Page 24 of MMM November 2016 that mentions a 2013 Bailey motorhome being registered by the DVLA in the Diesel Car (Tax Class 49) with an annual road tax charge of £515. This was because the motorhome’s Type Approval Certificate of Conformity (CofC) carried a CO2 emissions value.

 

Historically the DVLA registered ‘motor caravans’ based on their gross vehicle weight (GVW). Motor caravans up to 3500kg GVW were registered in Tax Class 11 (Private/Light Goods Vehicles), while motor caravans over 3500kg GVW were registered in Tax Class 10 (Private HGV).

 

This changed a few years ago with the DVLA saying that - from 1 August 2013 - if a CO2 emissions value was present on a new motor caravan’s CofC, it would be registered in the appropriate graduated tax class based on the vehicle’s fuel-type and the emissions value. This change of DVLA stance was widely publicised.

 

However, what was not emphasised at the time, nor since, was that the graduated road-tax classes (and all the DVLA rules that relate to them) do not apply to vehicles with a GVW above 3500kg. This was covered in some depth here

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Motorhome-licensing-road-tax/40754/

 

A UK dealership selling a new motorhome is not given the option by the DVLA whether or not to provide a CO2 emissions value when the vehicle is to be UK registered - if the relevant CofC carries a CO2 value, the dealership is obliged to provide it. Conversely, manufacturers of ‘Type Approved’ motorhomes can choose not to provide a CO2 value on their products’ CofCs.

[lennyhb]

Quote from DVLA leaflet on the 2017 tax changes.

 

"Multi stage build M1SP and M1G vehicles without

a CO2 emissions figure shown as part of the final

type approval will continue to be taxed as PLG.

Where there is a CO2 figure they will be taxed

under the new scheme".

[Derek Uzzell]

The DVLA leaflet Lenny mentions can be viewed here:

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/534511/ved-reform-briefing-for-motor-industry.pdf

 

The paragraph Lenny quotes specifically refers to the PLG (Private/Light Goods) road-tax class (which only applies to vehicles with a gross vehicle weight (GVW) not exceeding 3500kg) implying that the ‘new scheme’ would not apply to motorhomes with a GVW above 3500kg.

 

If that’s the case, significant road-tax savings could be made by choosing a motorhome with a GVW above 3500kg (say 3650kg rather than 3500kg). Plainly there would be driving-licence/speed-limit implications by doing this, but the potential seems to be there.

 

This is something that the motorhome industry needs to explore with the DVLA now rather than later. It’s seems evident that the ’new scheme’ will impact on new motorhomes up to 3500kg GVW with a CO2 value on their final Type Approval CofC (as happens now) but it’s less obvious what happens when a new motorhome has a GVW exceeding 3500kg.

[lennyhb]

My new van due in March is 4500kg, I will try and get it registered in March just to play safe as there appears to be total confusion and the chance of DVLA getting anything right is pretty remote.

[Derek Uzzell]

I don’t think there is any ‘confusion’ as such over the information in the DVLA leaflet.

 

It seems plain that, if a Type Approved M1SP vehicle (eg. a motor caravan) has a high CO2 value on its final CofC and the vehicle’s list-price exceeds £40k, the road-tax charge when the vehicle is first UK-registered will be high, as will the charge for the subsequent 5 years.

 

The current rates of vehicle tax can be viewed here

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/508618/V149_170316.pdf

 

and notes on the taxation classes themselves are here

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/561258/V355X1-Notes-about-tax-classes.pdf

 

The present policy is that (at first UK-registration) a Type Approved diesel-fuelled motorhome with a GVW not exceeding 3500kg should be placed in the ‘diesel car’ tax class (TC49) if its final CofC carries a CO2 value, or in the PLG class (TC11) if the final CofC does not carry a CO2 value. If the motorhome’s GVW exceeds 3500kg, it should be placed in the P/HGV class (TC10) irrespective of whether or not its CofC carries a CO2 value.

 

As far as I’m aware the ‘new scheme’ builds on present policy, meaning that the tax classes would not alter and, if a diesel-fuelled motorhome’s GVW exceeds 3500kg, it should always be placed in TC10.

 

There’s no doubt that motorhomes over 3500kg GVW were placed in the wrong tax class by the DVLA when their stance changed in 2013, and it’s predictable that - unless the DVLA clarifies the 3500kg GVW issue I’ve mentioned above - that this could happen again.

 

At the beginning of 2016 I had a soul-destroying e-mail dialogue with the DVLA about the present registration system and how it should apply to over-3500kg GVW motorhomes. This was only resolved when a ‘specialist section’ in the DVLA was consulted and confirmed that all over-3500kg motorhomes should be registered in TC10.

 

I suggested to the DVLA that, as the 3500kg GVW threshold was critical, it would be helpful if it were mentioned in their guidance to the motorhome industry/trade and in the documentation available to motorhome buyers. My comment was noted, but (assuming that the 3500kg threshold will still be part of the ’new scheme’) there’s nothing about vehicle GVW in the DVLA leaflet Lenny has mentioned.

 

(Under the DVLA’s ‘new scheme’ a Euro-6 Ducato-based motorhome costing over-£40k and having a CO2 value present on the vehicle’s final CofC could result in a first year road-tax rate of £800+, with £470 annually for the next 5 years. If the vehicle’s GVW exceeded 3500kg and it were placed in TC10, it’s likely that the current TC10 annual tax-rate of £165 would apply indefinitely.)

[lennyhb]

Fingers crossed you are right Derek, several members on Fun forum have phoned DVLA and each one has received a different answer.

[brom]

The point I have difficulty understanding with is the Certificate of Conformity. Who supplies this, and decides what information it contains?

 

VW T5 and subsequent models were hit when the last rule change came in, and higher-powered versions were stung for tax, based on their CO2 emissions. So presumably, the worst of all worlds, post April 2017, will be a 204bhp T6, worth over £40K, (as they will all be). How will the big VW converters, who build on new vans, manage? I imagine their sales could suffer severely.

 

But what about a Sevel panel-van conversion, under 3,500kg, but over £40K, post April?

 

Is it Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen which makes the decision about the contents of the CofC? After all, the CO2 emissions are clearly stated on every brochure, so the CofC could contain this info. If not, who is it who makes this decision - and can they be requested not to do so?

 

Get it wrong, and the panel-van market could be severely affected.

[Gerry McG]

I asked my German dealer whether the Globecar CoC contained a CO2 figure. He doesn't have a euro 6 CoC yet but he sent me a copy of a 3500kg ducato PVC with 150hp euro 5+ CoC and there was no co2 figure quoted on it

COC_sample.pdf

[colin]

As above, my 2011 globecar has a co2 figure.

[Steve928]

brom - 2016-10-30 2:03 PM

 

The point I have difficulty understanding with is the Certificate of Conformity. Who supplies this, and decides what information it contains?

 

The converter of panel vans, chassis cabs or back-to-back cabs will receive a CoC with their purchase from the base vehicle manufacturer. This will carry the CO2 figure of the vehicle in the configuration in which it was supplied to them i.e. one of the standard configurations that the vehicle manufacturer markets and has had tested for CO2 emmissions.

 

The converter then creates a CoC for the completed vehicle. In the case of a coachbuilt motorhome the converter will leave the CO2 figure blank as it is now not known, because the CO2 figure on the base vehicle manufacturer's CoC is no longer applicable. What happens with a PVC, that clearly better resembles the original vehicle, I don't know.

 

Providing that the second-stage CoC doesn't contain a CO2 figure the dealer or private individual registering the vehicle can now leave the CO2 figure blank on the V55 application form that gets sent to DVLA, who will then create a V5C with no CO2 figure thereon.

 

N.B. the second (or final) stage CoC must be sent to DVLA along with the V55 application so if the converter has included a CO2 figure I presume that DVLA would not accept the application if the CO2 figure was left blank on the V55, but I don't know this.

[goldi]

Good evening,

 

The most crucial question to ask the dealer before signing any order is to ask the year on year road tax and get that put down on the order form.

 

 

 

norm

[brom]

Problem will be, if you're ordering now, for delivery post-April, no-one will have sufficient information to give a concrete answer, so they would be very wise to refuse your request.

[Derek Uzzell]

Steve928 - 2016-10-30 3:06 PM

 

brom - 2016-10-30 2:03 PM

 

The point I have difficulty understanding with is the Certificate of Conformity. Who supplies this, and decides what information it contains?

 

The converter of panel vans, chassis cabs or back-to-back cabs will receive a CoC with their purchase from the base vehicle manufacturer. This will carry the CO2 figure of the vehicle in the configuration in which it was supplied to them i.e. one of the standard configurations that the vehicle manufacturer markets and has had tested for CO2 emmissions.

 

The converter then creates a CoC for the completed vehicle. In the case of a coachbuilt motorhome the converter will leave the CO2 figure blank as it is now not known, because the CO2 figure on the base vehicle manufacturer's CoC is no longer applicable. What happens with a PVC, that clearly better resembles the original vehicle, I don't know.

 

Providing that the second-stage CoC doesn't contain a CO2 figure the dealer or private individual registering the vehicle can now leave the CO2 figure blank on the V55 application form that gets sent to DVLA, who will then create a V5C with no CO2 figure thereon.

 

N.B. the second (or final) stage CoC must be sent to DVLA along with the V55 application so if the converter has included a CO2 figure I presume that DVLA would not accept the application if the CO2 figure was left blank on the V55, but I don't know this.

 

Nit-picking perhaps, but the ‘final’ Certificate of Conformity (CofC) of a Type-Approved multi-stage M1SP vehicle (eg. a motorhome) may not be its 2nd CofC. If the vehicle starts life as just a cab or cowl unit (as can happen with Ducatos and Boxers) a 2nd CofC may be produced when an Al-Ko chassis is added and a 3rd CofC (the ‘final' one) when the motorhome manufacturer completes the conversion.

 

I’m not familiar with the process involved when a UK motorhome dealer applies to the DVLA for a new motor-caravan to be registered. It used to be the case that motorhomes could not be registered via the DVLA’s automated system (as cars could be) and that ‘paper’ documentaion needed to be provided - but that was when there were DVLA local offices. I do know that when I applied (to a local DVLA office) to register my imported Hobby motorhome in 2005 I had to provide a whole sheaf of paper documentation that included the CofC produced by Hobby.

 

From what Steve says, the DVLA still demands to see a motorhome’s CofC documentation and it’s to be anticipated that, if a CofC carries a CO2 value, the DVLA will note this even if the application form itself omits the CO2 value. (Logically, the DVLA should demand to see the CofC itself, otherwise the emissions-related element of the current and future system (that’s based on the presence, or not, of a CO2 value on the CofC) could be sidestepped merely by leaving the CO2 value off the application form.)

 

There’s little point phoning the DVLA about complex policy issues. All you’ll get is ‘call centre’ staff who either won’t be au fait with the subject or will trot out what they believe might be correct. I’m accustomed to communicating with Government departments, but It took me three goes via e-mail to obtain the information I’ve referred to in my posting of 29 October 2016 3:24 PM above and it was plain that the first two respondents to my inquiry were uninfomed. It wasn’t that they weren’t trying to do their bes to deal with my inquiry, just that the issue was complex and they didn’t understand it.

 

The present position regarding UK-registering a new motorhome is understood. The DVLA leaflet describing the VED changes effective from 1 April 2017 mentions the PLG road-tax class (appropriate only to vehicles with a GVW not exceeding 3500kg) but is opaque about how the changes will apply if a vehicle’s GVW exceeds 3500kg.

 

The 1 April 2017 changes were discussed here in 2015

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Budget-VED-changes-and-motorhomes-/38790/

 

but information about them was sketchier then.

 

I’ll see if I can get the DVLA to clarify the GVW-related issue.

 

 

 

[brom]

As seemingly minor changes (like a different wheel size, for instance), can alter the CO2 emissions and tax band of cars, I wonder whether underslung fuel tanks and rising roofs might be held to make similar changes - meaning that it's impossible to provide a CO2 figure for the CofC, which therefore should be left blank, Worth the converters' while arguing the point, anyway.

 

Perhaps the new Chancellor will kick the whole idea into touch in his Autumn Statement - wishful thinking!

[Steve928]

Derek Uzzell - 2016-10-31 8:00 AM

 

Nit-picking perhaps, but the ‘final’ Certificate of Conformity (CofC) of a Type-Approved multi-stage M1SP vehicle (eg. a motorhome) may not be its 2nd CofC. If the vehicle starts life as just a cab or cowl unit (as can happen with Ducatos and Boxers) a 2nd CofC may be produced when an Al-Ko chassis is added and a 3rd CofC (the ‘final' one) when the motorhome manufacturer completes the conversion.

 

 

You're quite correct, Derek. Having checked my van's documents I see that I do indeed have 3 CofCs, the second one being raised by Al-Ko for their vehicle type AMC35L. Interestingly the CO2 figure has already dissappeared by this stage.