Multiple weight plates and a little confusion

[BruceM]

Hi, new on board although I’ve been a ‘lurker’ for a couple of months.

 

I’ve been through the forum discussions on GVM, unladen weights etc but I need some clarification on which of my weights plates take precedence on my 2003 Dethleffs.

 

Scenario:

My V5C states Motor Caravan, Private/Light Goods(PLG), Revenue weight 2800KG Gross

 

The plate under my bonnet (see picture) states

3500 KG

1850 KG

2120 KG

 

The plate on the habitation unit (see picture) – [the bits in brackets are what the Dethleffs website states these numbers refer to (see other picture)] - states

3850 KG [maximum permissible gross weight of vehicle with trailer]

5490 KG [maximum permissible gross weight of the vehicle]

1850 KG [max front axel]

2120 KG [max rear axel]

 

Questions:

1/ From a driving licence/weighbridge/toll road perspective is this rated as an up to 3.5T vehicle?

2/ What is the implication of the second weight on the habitation plate – 5490 KG especially as this is greater than the apparent Gross Train Weight (GTW)? Have Dethleffs got the GVW(MAM?) and GTW numbers the wrong way around and if so is this actually a 3.85T vehicle rather than 3.5T vehicle?

3/ IF all this indicates that there is actually a discrepancy between the habitation plate weights and the under bonnet vehicle plate weights which takes precedence and what are the practical implications?

 

 

Many Thanks

[Randonneur]

We had a similar problem on our previous van, a Pilote, when we came to re-register it in the UK from French plates we found multiple vin plates but the weight was the same. What we found was that they were "Build Plates". This could be what 'Stufe 2' means (not translated it yet). We were told that the one to go off was the latest one but in your case it looks like its 3500 kgs as on your V5 but COULD be uprated to 3850kgs. This is only a theory not a fact.

[Robinhood]

The Dethleffs plate is the Stufe 2 plate (Stage 2) and overrides the original underbonnet Fiat (Stage 1) Plate.

 

The vehicle is plated at 3850kg MAM (a weight which is a common upgrade for this chassis - a Maxi from the axle ratings - either ex-factory or subsequent), with a Gross Train Weight (with trailer) of 5490kg. The maximum axle loads remain the same (again, this is usual).

 

Unless there is a further (Stage/Stufe 3) plate fitted, the vehicle should be taxed as PHG and is subject to all the restrictions applicable to a vehicle over 3500kg (licence, tolls, speed limits when abroad, etc.). PHG tax is, however, presently and odd as it seems, somewhat less than PLG.

 

If you are prepared to accept the restrictions, and have an appropriate driving licence, there is the (potential) advantage of a higher legal payload at 3850kg (but beware those unchanged max axle loads). If you don't like the restrictions or don't have the appropriate licence it might be possible to officially replate at 3500kg, subject to there being a still usable payload.

 

 

[Keithl]

Bruce,

 

Your photos are labelled incorrectly! The Fiat plate is the underbonnet first stage plate and the Dethleff's plate is the habitation and second stage plate. The second (or last if more than 2) plate ALWAYS takes precedence!

 

Hence your MH is actually a PHGV plated at 3,850 kg as RH has already explained.

 

Finally your explanation diagram contains an error, the first weight is Max weight WITHOUT trailer, second weight is max WITH trailer, followed by front and rear axle limits.

 

So unless you where presented with any down plating paperwork your MH is incorrectly registered as a PLGV and needs correcting as a matter of urgency.

 

My suggestion would be a call to whoever you purchased it from, be it dealer or private, to see if they can help followed by a call to the likes of SV Tech to ask for advice on how to correct the error.

 

Finally a question, do you have a C1 driving licence? If Yes I would personally look at correcting to 3,850 kg, if No then down plate to 3,500 kg.

 

Ask if you need more help.

 

Keith.

 

PS And welcome to the forum.

[pepe63xnotuse]

..if/when you do look at getting the V5 corrected/altered ( to PHG/ 3850kg), unless you have supporting documentation, I'd advise that before you even think about contacting DVLA, try your best to source some verification from Dethleffs ("HQ"?)..A long shot maybe, with the vehicle being 2003..?

 

We were led a not-so merry dance by DVLA, when we tried correct the revenue weight on our last van's V5 (it showed 3500kg, instead of 3850kg) - with umpteen phone calls, emails, visits to local office(since closed!), visit to main Vosa depot etc etc, with everyone of them of telling to do something different!?)

 

It eventually took (free) documentation, that I requested(via an email) from Chausson HQ in France, to sort it out.

[Derek Uzzell]

Welcome to the Out&AboutLive forums, Bruce.

 

It would be useful to know which 2003 Dethleffs model your motorhome is, but my understanding (based on your photos) is as follows (and generally repeats what has already been advised above).

 

I’m guessing that your motorhome has an Al-Ko chassis (hence the missing Gross Train Weight value on the “Fiat Auto S.P.A. data-plate) but, irrespective of that being so, the values on the DETHLEFFS GmbH data-plate should be take precedence. This plate has “Stufe 2” (Step/Stage 2) on it indicating that the plate applies to the vehicle after its conversion from the original Fiat Ducato chassis into a motorhome.

 

The advice in the “13.8 Vehicle Identification plate” paragraph is incorrect. The values on the Dethleffs data-plate (from top to bottom) indicate

 

Maximum permissible gross weight of the vehicle = 3850kg

Maximum permissible gross weight of the vehicle with trailer = 5490kg

Permissible front-axle maximum load = 1850kg

Permissible rear-axle maximum load = 2120kg

 

Unless there is another data-plate (or data-sticker) somewhere on the vehicle that overrides the Dethleffs plate, your motorhome will be considered to have a GVW/MAM/MTPLM (whatever you want to call it) of 3850kg and - where ‘Road Tax’ is concerned - it should be classified in Tax Class 10 (Private HGV) not Tax Class 11 (Private/Light Goods(PLG)) as currently shown on the vehicle’s V5C registration document.

 

It’s possible (and not unduly rare) for a motorcaravan owner to have a motorhome ‘down-plated’ to the 3500kg MAM threshold so that it can be driven legally on a basic “B” driving-licence entitlement. This might explain why your Dethleffs’s V5C currently shows Private/Light Goods(PLG). However (as said above) if there’s no 3rd data-plate/sticker to prove that the vehicle’s GVW has been reduced to 3500kg, the 3850kg value on the Dethleffs data-plate is the one that counts.

 

If you can’t back-track historically (as Keithl suggests) to discover why your Dethleffs is currently registered in the PLG tax-class despite its GVW apparently being 3850kg, you’d need to contact the DVLA about this (by e-mail would be best). It’s far from unknown for a motorhome to be registered in an inappropriate tax-class initially and for this error to be overlooked for years.

 

(Forget the V5C’s 2800kg Revenue Weight figure - it’s not relevant for PLG or PHGV motorhomes.)

[gmcclin]

Just out of curiosity if the vehicle is correctly changed on V5 as 3850kg what are the implications with regards to tax, insurance and MOT.

[Brian Kirby]

gmcclin - 2017-02-28 2:39 PM

 

Just out of curiosity if the vehicle is correctly changed on V5 as 3850kg what are the implications with regards to tax, insurance and MOT.

It will fall into the PHGV class, for which VED is lower. MoT will be the same as for PLG, and insurance should be unaffected. But, as with anything involving insurance, it is essential to ask the insurer about rates first, and to formally notify them of the change after the revenue weight change has been completed.

[bolero boy]

one thing not mentioned is that you should weigh the vehicle, fully loaded, incl water and fuel if thats how you travel, because downplting to 3500kg may not be viable in your full race trim.

if this is the case, and you have C1 group, then upgrade, if ypu dont have C1 and the van is 'heavy' (ie not viable at 3500) thrn you have a real problem....you either wont be able to drive the van at 3850 (no licence) or you wont be able to drive the vsn at 3500 (no payload)....

i would weigh it as soon as practically possible.

good luck.

[BruceM]

Many thanks for the comprehensive responses.

 

I guess that the Dethleffs documentation lost something in translation. The confusion issue has now been resolved.

 

Re ‘which model?’ it’s the Esprit i5830 and re ‘do I have a C1 licence’, yes I do.

[BruceM]

By way of completion . . .

 

Had a chat with DVLA who were very helpful. From their UK perspective the habitation weight plate is irrelevant as the motorhome has always been recorded in the UK as a PLG (3.5T) vehicle and carries a plate to that effect (under the bonnet). As long as the motorhome stays under the 3.5T limit there is apparently no issue. They have suggested that if the motorhome is used abroad it might be worthwhile obscuring the habitation weight plate to avoid creating confusion if the vehicle undergoes a spot check eg with vignette payments for Switzerland.

 

I’ll weighbridge to ensure that we conform to the vehicle’s current recorded spec and then give some thought to the value or otherwise of upgrading the weight record. We prefer to camp under canvas during the summer months, the motorhome is to take advantage of the colder and wetter times of the year, so we're generally used to travelling light and the weight limitation may not be an issue. Thanks again for all the input.

.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

There are multiple weight plates in a motorhome. Fiat-alko- builder. Stage1-2-3. They should comply whit your car papers. These papers can differ per country. If you want to make changes in weight you have to follow the national rules and some reflect your car papers and plating. In Germany all-these changes are recorded and amended car papers are supplied. Down-rating is more difficult than uprating in germany than in belgium. To understand see the car papers per country.

[Robinhood]

BruceM - 2017-03-01 2:43 PM

 

By way of completion . . .

 

Had a chat with DVLA who were very helpful.......

.

 

I have to say that I would want that in writing, as it doesn't align with legislation as I understand it.

[Derek Uzzell]

Bruce

 

The DVLA person you spoke to has advised you wrongly. Dealing with the DVLA is an art rather than a science and some of the ‘front desk’ staff are clueless. (That’s why I suggested you e-mail the DVLA rather than phone them.)

 

There is no such thing as a ‘habitation weight-plate’. A motorhome may have one, two or three weight-related data-plates according to how many stages are involved in its construction, and it’s the plate that relates to the final stage that defines the vehicle’s maximum permissible gross weight, train weight and axle loadiings.

 

As it must be the case with your Esprit that the Dethleffs “Stage 2” plate defines the vehicle’s maximum weight/loadings after the Fiat chassis has been converted into a motorhome, the Dethleffs plate must override the Fiat plate.

 

My Rapido motorhome has two data-plates - a Fiat plate that relates to the chassis prior to its conversion into a motorhome and that gives its maximum permissible gross weight as 3650kg, and a Rapido "Stage 2” plate that overrides the Fiat plate and that gives the converted motorhome’s maximum permissible gross weight as 3500kg. If the Fiat plate had priority (which is what the DVLA seem to be telling you regarding your Esprit) my motorhome would be UK-taxed in the Private HGV class but, as it’s the Rapido plate that counts, my motorhome is correctly taxed in the PLG class.

 

Given the specification of a 2003 i5830, there’s a good chance you can operate the vehicle satisfactorily with a maximum permissible gross weight of 3500kg, but as things stand, with the Dethleffs plate recording 3850kg, the vehicle is apparently in the wrong UK Tax Class (and you are paying more road-tax than you should).

 

(Just out of curiosity, just in case the Dethleffs plate is wrong, does your Espri have 15”-diameter or 16”-diameter wheels?)

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

A follow-up...

 

Although the Dethleffs data-plate in Bruce’s photo plainly carries weight-data that would be normal for a 2003 motorhome based on a Fiat Ducato ‘Maxi’ chassis (the 3850, 5490, 1850, 2120 values are exactly what one might expect) I can’t find any evidence that the Esprit i5830 model had a Gross Vehicle Weight above 3500kg.

 

This advert

 

https://m.finn.no/car/mobilehome/ad.html?finnkode=58628992

 

shows that a i5830 is quite compact and the gross weight given (3400kg) appears elsewhere on-line.

 

In 2003 it was normally a simple matter to identify a motorhome based on a Ducato ‘Maxi’ chassis, as 16”-diameter wheels were necessary to provide clearance for that chassis’s larger front disc-brakes. So if Bruce’s Esprit has 16”-diameter wheels, the motorhome is (almost certainly) built on a ‘Maxi’ chassis and the Dethleffs data-plate should apply. But if the Esprit has 15”-diameter wheels, the chassis is not the ‘Maxi’ version (as 15” wheels won’t fit on that) and the Dethleffs and Fiat data-plates are both ‘wrong’ as they carry axle-weight values appropriate to a ‘Maxi’ chassis.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

The country means member states of the European union.But actual car legislation is left to the member states.And they can and will be different. If in doubt check the country and even their cities about driving your motor-home there.The best technical system is Germany as related to motor home called StvZo.Belgium Goca. And yourDlva. You will get in trouble if you want to make changes if the original COC is affected.Yes you can make changes but acc the basic rule and the change rules and country approval. If you have air suspension on a truck you will pay less road tax. Every truck driver and coach buses drive on air on their axles and driver seat. Except their steering rear axle. Seeing the discussions here seek professional advice.And calling the DLVA is not a good idea. Just keep technical in shape the weakest point goes first. The rest is just paper. Success whit you hard brexit including northern Ireland.

[Robinhood]

Derek Uzzell - 2017-03-02 8:12 AM

 

A follow-up...

 

Although the Dethleffs data-plate in Bruce’s photo plainly carries weight-data that would be normal for a 2003 motorhome based on a Fiat Ducato ‘Maxi’ chassis (the 3850, 5490, 1850, 2120 values are exactly what one might expect) I can’t find any evidence that the Esprit i5830 model had a Gross Vehicle Weight above 3500kg.

 

 

...all the listings I can find indicate that it was on the intermediate weight ("non-maxi") van at 3400kg as standard.

 

A number of adverts for contemporaneous vans indicate 3500kg, however.

 

The Dethleffs plate looks genuine, however, and the axle weights are consistent with the FIAT plate, and the 3500kg original/3850kg uprated combination is, as we know, perfectly normal for a factory uprated 'van.

 

It is not unknown for such an upgrade to be a cost option (in fact it is relatively common) but I can't find a price list that old.

 

One thing that does strike me, however, is that, from the VIN plate, it appears to have been built on an X230, not the X244 that was introduced in late 2002. I do wonder whether they were using up the last of the in-stock chassis to fulfil 2002/3 orders, and ended up with a hybrid simply because that was the chassis they had left.

 

It's not beyond the realms of possibility, since there was at that time at least one short (shorter!) "I" model built on the maxi chassis by default, and delivered at 3850kg.

[flicka]

I am leaning towards Robin Hood's theory, especially as it would appear that the base vehicle was supplied as front end (cab) only (hence the missing weight on the Fiat plate) & an Al-Ko chassis fitted by Dethleffs.

[Derek Uzzell]

A ‘history’ of Ducato model definitions (and identifying features) is provided in this 2013 Fiat Forum thread.

 

http://www.fiatforum.com/ducato/340040-understanding-all-model-varieants.html

 

As Robinhood has said, 2002 was a change-over year during which the Ducato 230 was superseded by the 244. It’s well recognised that a lengthy time-period may be involved covering when a ‘chassis’ is constructed, then provided to a motorhome converter, and the conversion finally being completed. It’s also the case that UK motorcaravanners commonly refer to their vehicle’s ‘age’ based on when it was first UK-registered, not based on when it left the motorhome converter’s factory or based on the motorhome’s ‘model year’. There can also often be a long delay between the date of conversion-completion and when the motorhome finds a buyer and is UK-registered. So I doubt there’s any real contradiction between Bruce saying he has a “2003 Dethleffs” motorhome and its VIN-plate indicating it’s built on a Ducato 230 chassis.

 

I have an October 2003 copy of the French magazine “Camping-Car” that lists all motorhome models that were being marketed in France at that time, and It would seem from this that Dethleffs had dropped the i5830 model by then. The smallest A-class models were (apparently) available with a 2.3litre or 2.8litre motor, while the larger models had the 2.8litre motor as standard. Some models had an Al-Ko chassis while others (the less expensive ones) did not.

 

In 2002/2003 I don’t think Fiat was supplying Ducatos to motorhome converters in ‘cab-only’ form. For an A-class model like the i5830, I’d expect Fiat to have provided Dethleffs with a ‘chassis-cowl’ - essentially a standard commercial Ducato ladder-frame chassis without the cab bodywork. The complete rear part of the chassis (from the cab backwards) would then be sawn off and an Al-Ko replacement chassis grafted on.

 

Although I mentioned earlier that Bruce’s motorhome might have an Al-Ko chassis, that was purely a guess based on there being no Gross Train Weight (GTW) value on the Fiat data-plate. It’s may be that, 15 years ago, Fiat used to leave off the GTW datum on chassis-cowl VIN-plates and (other than the missing GTW) there seems to be no evidence that an Esprit i5830 might have an Al-Ko chassis.

 

Bruce could easily check which type of chassis his motorhome has. A standard Ducato chassis has leaf rear springs, whereas an Al-Ko chassis uses a torsion-bar within the rear axle. So no sign of leaf springs means it’s an Al-Ko chassis. However, establishing which type of chassis Bruce’s Esprit has won’t resolve the apparent conflict between the 3850kg figure on the Dethleffs data-plate and the vehicle being UK-registered in the Private/Light Goods tax category.

[Robinhood]

..Understandably, the VIN number has been obscured in the picture of the VIN plate - but putting this into ePer would give a full view of what the base vehicle was when it left the factory.

 

Putting the "versione" code alone into ePer, however, provides some data as per below.

 

This shows that it was indeed a "maxi" version (load capacity 18), and that it left the factory with a chassis.

 

Interestingly enough, it also terms it a "cabin cruiser", which implies it wasn't a chassis/cowl. I'm not at all sure that this is reliable, as I can't find a description that uses the term chassis/cowl.

[Derek Uzzell]

This translated Finnish record relates to a 2003 Esprit I-5830

 

http://tinyurl.com/hu38z92

 

It will be seen that the entry carries the same Fiat version-code and the same Dethleffs Type-Approval reference as Bruce’s motorhome, but the chassis is stated as being a Ducato 14 (not a Ducato 18 “Maxi”) and the MAM is 3400kg.

 

The late-2003 “Camping-Car” magazine I mentioned earlier indicates that Dethleffs were building A-class models then on standard Ducato 15 and 18 chassis and on Al-ko equivalents, with no obvious direct link between vehicle-length and chassis-type. As a result of French driving-licence norms, unless it proved totally impracticable to do so, all of those motorhomes would have been marketed in France with a MAM of 3500kg even when a Ducato 18 “Maxi” chassis was used.

 

The vehicle’s data-plates point to Bruce’s Esprit i5830 having beeen built on a Ducato “Maxi” chassis (I’d still like to know the diameter of the wheels) but the vehicle is UK-registered in the PLG category. It’s well-recognised that motorhomes (particularly LHD imported ones) can be wrongly categorised when first UK-registered, with over-3500kg-MAM vehicles ending up in the PLG class. Also that owners of over-3500kg-MAM motorhomes quite often choose to ‘downplate’ them to 3500kg.

 

As Bruce has a C1 driving-licence entitlement, even if the Esprit were to be reclassified as Private/HGV he could still legally drive it. The choices seem to be for him to first confirm that the weight-related values on the Dethleffs plate are correct for the vehicle and (if they prove to be) then decide whether to get the DVLA to reclassify it to Private/HGV, or to have it ‘replated’ from 3850kg to 3500kg. While the present anomaly remains unaddressed there are plenty of potential pitfalls and an apparent conflict between the Dethleffs plate and the DVLA taxation class won’t help if the motorhome were to be sold.

[Robinhood]

Derek Uzzell - 2017-03-03 2:55 PM

 

It will be seen that the entry carries the same Fiat version-code......

 

...but it doesn't.; it has 230B..... vs 230C.... (acccounted for by the fact that Bruce's is built on the heavier chassis - ePer perusal indicates that 230B is the "14" chassis, 230C is the "18" or "maxi" chassis).