david lloyd Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 Hi everyone, Many years ago we towed a Toyota Yaris on a Car-A-Tow A-frame but then downsized to PVC's for a long while. We now have a coachbuilt again and - before the suggested alternatives are mentioned - used to have e-bikes but my wife has total knee replacement and cannot bend that enough now to cycle and I have really poor balance for two wheeled transport of any kind. So, we are planning on having a tow vehicle again which will be used as a normal everyday vehicle and only towed in the UK (find motor homing much easier without a car abroad using Aires) but they have moved on since 2006 and I wondered what users now would recommend in terms of price, ease of use and effectiveness in use? I have spent a good amount of time reading through the old posts on A-frames and am happily conversant with all the pros and cons regarding legality, Traikers as an alternative etc so please, just comments on the best make/supplier of A-frames would be appreciated. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted July 17, 2019 Author Share Posted July 17, 2019 Ah, well, I'm pretty sure there are still many members out there using A-frames so not sure why no comments yet. Maybe it was my own comments about just sticking to which A-frame rather than the wider issue of A-frames generally? However, let's have another go. We have now settled on a very nice 2009 Fiat Panda which we collect today but I am still torn between the new type of frames with electronic braking systems or the more traditional ones with overrun brakes. The cost difference is significant but does it mean a better towing system? Any first hand experience would be welcome. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 Hi David, Have you actually seen any of these A-frames in real life? If not then why not head to one of the Warner's shows where there are usually three or four companies displaying them. It is only a couple of weeks until the Malvern 'Western' show which is right on your doorstep. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted July 17, 2019 Author Share Posted July 17, 2019 Keithl - 2019-07-17 9:04 AM Hi David, Have you actually seen any of these A-frames in real life? If not then why not head to one of the Warner's shows where there are usually three or four companies displaying them. It is only a couple of weeks until the Malvern 'Western' show which is right on your doorstep. Keith. Thanks Keith - yes, have seen most of the different types at the shows (have to give you low marks for geography as Malvern is way, way away from North Yorkshire!) and we are going to the Western - hopefully with a car in tow. We also had a Toyota Yaris on a Car A Tow frame back in 2006 so have some first hand experience of that but not of the newer ones like the Towbars2Towcars frame. Thought I may get some observations/opinions on other types/manufacturers before we get ours done. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 david lloyd - 2019-07-17 9:13 AM Thanks Keith - yes, have seen most of the different types at the shows (have to give you low marks for geography as Malvern is way, way away from North Yorkshire!) ... David Ooops! Read Worcester in your Profile and never realised it was your Model not Location! :$ :$ :$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancepar Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 I've been using a TOWtal, Stoke -on-Trent, A-frame for a number of year with our Smarty and it uses overrun braking and is probably heavier than current makes available. If I needed to change it for any reason then I would go for a lighter version with a more modern Toad braking system. B-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gman Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 Tow bars 2 tow cars, Had ours over two years now, electronic brake system works well, no nuts and bolts to mess about with and only 9kg on tow bar, Peugeot 107 (Purple Ronnie) the car is great and quite nippy too, Just hook it up and try not to forget about it. Frame, cable, break away, eyes, all in one bag, easy peasey. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
23addy46 Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 Hi Good Morning David, Re your 'Which A-Frame'? posting, may I offer for your consideration OUR experiences with an 'A Frame. over the past 10 years (as of next month) ... Having started our MH usage with a 1998 Swift Royale 610SE, we very quickly realised the benefits of having a means of 'local exploration transport' after our first foray into France, where the Camp Site quoted 'a 5 mins walk to the village and shops'.turned out to be a 35 mins. struggle down (and of course back UP) a rough stone rubbled path! Subsiquently (& following an SVE upgrade to 3500kgs) I had a rear Frame fitted to carry a Peugot 100 Speedfight Scooter (big mistake for both '2 up staiblity' and fuel useage reasons!), followed quickly by (as a rider since 1957 !) a 'proper Honda CG 125cc motorcycle' that gave excellent service untill, as in your case my wifes knees became a problem to the degree she was unable to ride on the bike - RE THINK REQUIRED :- Following the purchase of our new Bessacarr E695, 3rd Aug 2009 and following thorough investigations into differing means of transporting a 'small car' behind Bessie, and important, having spoken to Graham Richards the designer / manufacturer of the 'Towbars 2 Towcars' Electronic Braked 'A Frame' system (and the very same person who manufactured and pattented the first 'Electronic Tachograph') we thankfully decided to adopt his system ! Having just returned from our 9th holiday into / through France and Spain (only clocking 2310 miles this time) However well over 24000 miles have been covered towing our 2007 Peugeot 107 equiped car. We re visited 'Towbars 2 Towcars' in 2017 to have them 'check things over/service it', with no problems found ! - Add to that the fact the complete A Frame weighs only 12kgs (ave 24/25kgs on sliding hitch systems) - The Car looks normal with the A Frame Off (ie:- No Brackets) - ALL IN ALL - ITS PROVEN TO DO EXACTLY WHAT IT SAYS ON THE TIN (to paraphrase a TV advert) - I should point out that beyond its purchase back in 2009, i have no connection with the company - I WILL ADD - THE ONLY DOWN SIDE (not really) TO HAVING THE SYSTEM, IS THE NUMBER OF TIMES I AM CALLED UPON TO EXPLAIN / DEMONSTRATE TO FELLOW CAMPERS (of all nations) THE WAY IT WORKS ! Anyone local considering an 'A Frame' are welcome to view our 'well used' example ? Dave & Ann Adams, Leyland, Lancs. 07961848873. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted July 17, 2019 Author Share Posted July 17, 2019 I am most grateful for all the comments so far - very reassuring about the TB2TC conversion which I am leaning toward but, as a true Yorkshireman, it's quite painful to pay nearly double the price of a standard overrun A-frame! However, I just try and curb my natural tendencies and view this with an open mind (and wallet) so I think I'll have another chat with them today. Thank you all. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
23addy46 Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 Hy David, Re the cost factor in your reply - Back in 2009 when I was in the research stage there was only around 20 % price difference between the lowest price (heavy steel) over run to our purchased 'Towbars 2 Towcars' system ? - with (if i recollect correctly) a 'light weight' alloy over run system in between ? (which I didn't like the look of) - So, not knowing what the today's cost to convert a car is, perhaps the cost differential you state is reflecting the fact that the 'over run systems' still being offered are just not selling to the same degree as 10 yrs ago and have been 'price reduced' accordingly ? I wonder if this could be a reason as to why so many 'over run systems' are offered for sale in the press ? Dave Adams, Leyland, Lancs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
23addy46 Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 Hy - just noted - missed out of my last paragraph :- should have read - as to why so many PRE - USED over run systems - etc. etc.. Dave Adams, Leyland, Lancs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted July 17, 2019 Author Share Posted July 17, 2019 Hi Dave, yes you may just be right. From my enquires the usual 'heavy' overrun type A-frame manufacturers are still selling as reflected in their install slot availability but not perhaps anywhere near as busy as TB2TC. As this is hopefully a long term investment I have taken the plunge and placed an order with TB2TC to fit their system to the newly acquired Fiat Panda at an all in cost of £2195 as opposed to the price of £950 for an overrun type A-frame at one of the major suppliers of these. In all honesty, I can see that the price reflects much of the time work and effort put into researching, designing and bringing the Towbars-2-Towcars version to market and that it is a much more advanced product to the old technology. Price aside, I am impressed with the service so far as they are fully booked through to middle August and are expecting this weekends motorhome show in Norfolk will produce more orders. But, when I explained that we had hoped to be able to have the work done before we depart for a few weeks trip on 14 August, Graham immediately offered to fit us in providing we could leave the car with them for a week so they could work on it in between other jobs as and when they can. They will give me a car to come back home in and which I can tow behind our motorhome when we go back a week later to collect our car and also have the 7 pin electrics upgraded to 13 pin. Altogether different, more helpful service to that which has become the norm with many companies these days - and that in itself is worth a great deal. So, I'm trying not to worry about my empty pockets and looking forward to the freedom the tow car will give us for years to come. Thanks for your interest and comments. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike P Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 Can't speak too highly of TB 2 Tow Cars.dealt with them originally after much research and not regretted it. 8 years on & second car+ conversion from them, couldn't be happier.l; Mike P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buster30 Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 What is the rough cost of the conversion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted July 22, 2019 Author Share Posted July 22, 2019 Buster30 - 2019-07-21 9:29 PM What is the rough cost of the conversion As posted above - £2195 including the conversion, number plate, towing sign/reflectors and a13 pin upgrade to motorhome electrics for the fiat Panda. It is, apparently a bit more work and the usual cost for the more popular cars like Citroen C1/Peugeot 107 would be £2000 all including VAT. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 I used to tow our everyday Toyota Yaris behind our Autotrail Savannah, I bought a used, nearly new, Car a tow A frame off of E Bay for £200. Getting our car converted cost another £450. it used an ordinary overrun braking system which was adequate for the job. The frame was rather heavy, I also fitted a jockey wheel for ease of handling. Now downsized to a PVC. Towed with the A frame, in the UK for just over 2 years.No problems. Car-A -Tow good solid A -frame but heavy to carry around. Expensive to get car converted. Three years later sold the lot on e bay for...£250. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
23addy46 Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 Hi David, Please to hear that you have made your choice with the TB2TC's 'A' Frame. The helpful service you describe from Graham & the team is something that I fully recollect, and is altogether lacking in far to many industries in Britain these days...I (we) fell sure you will be as happy with your new TB2TC's 'A' Frame as we have been since 2009, and would someday hope to meet you 'on site', look for 09 plate E695 Bessie, with Blue 07 plate Peugeot 107... Re prices :- 2009 price was £1600 total (15 % Vat. if I remember?) so considering how costs of materials etc. rocketed, plus Vat up to 20%, I suppose the price isn't far off being 'just about right' ? Looking at MH & Car costs from 10 years ago as comparison... Just wish my earnings had kept pace with them, I'm still working full time in my 77th year (search:- 'the home of happy windows', Leyland)... Dave Adams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted July 24, 2019 Author Share Posted July 24, 2019 Rayjsj - 2019-07-24 11:34 AM I used to tow our everyday Toyota Yaris behind our Autotrail Savannah, I bought a used, nearly new, Car a tow A frame off of E Bay for £200. Getting our car converted cost another £450. it used an ordinary overrun braking system which was adequate for the job. The frame was rather heavy, I also fitted a jockey wheel for ease of handling. Now downsized to a PVC. Towed with the A frame, in the UK for just over 2 years.No problems. Car-A -Tow good solid A -frame but heavy to carry around. Expensive to get car converted. Three years later sold the lot on e bay for...£250. Hi Ray, we did pretty much the same thing back in 2006. Bought a Car-A-Tow A-frame on EBay and got the correct towing bar frame for the Yaris - fitted it myself back then but don't think my knees could stand it now. Never had any bother with it but, as you say, very heavy to handle and I think technology has moved on since then. Sold that outfit (car and frame complete) to a chap in Scotland so it may still be tootling about and we downsized to a PVC for the next 10 years. Now back with a comfortable coachbuilt and use town sites/sites on good bus routes when we can but often stay on CL's and Temporary Holiday Sites so looking forward to having a run around. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted July 24, 2019 Author Share Posted July 24, 2019 23addy46 - 2019-07-24 2:56 PM Hi David, Please to hear that you have made your choice with the TB2TC's 'A' Frame. The helpful service you describe from Graham & the team is something that I fully recollect, and is altogether lacking in far to many industries in Britain these days...I (we) fell sure you will be as happy with your new TB2TC's 'A' Frame as we have been since 2009, and would someday hope to meet you 'on site', look for 09 plate E695 Bessie, with Blue 07 plate Peugeot 107... Re prices :- 2009 price was £1600 total (15 % Vat. if I remember?) so considering how costs of materials etc. rocketed, plus Vat up to 20%, I suppose the price isn't far off being 'just about right' ? Looking at MH & Car costs from 10 years ago as comparison... Just wish my earnings had kept pace with them, I'm still working full time in my 77th year (search:- 'the home of happy windows', Leyland)... Dave Adams Dave, I'm really pleased you are able to keep working if, like many people, you enjoy what you are doing and it keeps you out and about. I'm happily retired and we now have more freedom to use the motorhome more often hence investing in another A-frame. I think you're right about the costs - from memory when we converted the Yaris back in 2006 it was going to be around the £800 mark for a traditional overrun system and they are now in the £1000 - £1200 bracket so just about an equivalent rise to the TB2TC's system I would think. We have a motor homing friend over in Blackpool who also chose that system and one of the reasons we decided to look at them closer. In fact, our first trip with the car in tow will be over that side of the country as we are going to visit him and more friends in southport before having air suspension fitted at Warrington. A/S Worcester with a 59 plate white Fiat Panda will be passing through Lancashire. Keep the work/life balance right Dave and I'll keep an eye out for you. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
23addy46 Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 Hi David, Thanks for your reply and wishes. Your A/S Worcester reminded me:- Back in 2009 (after selling our Swift 610SE Royale Ensign to Southampton trader !) and searching to replace with a 'same layout' 'U' Lounge+ overcab (storage), the M/H we both really did like very much was an A/S Berkshire (with overcab & manual box).. Your comment re "air suspension to be fitted" reminded the sole reason for rejecting the Berkshire, in that even whilst sat empty on Marquis Preston's site ('ex factory delivered') the rear skirt was far to close to the deck. Replying to my observations, the salesman's comments 'That's because its on the Merc Chassis, they give a smoother ride', and offered the suggestion of 'having air bellows fitted' to lift it up' - Asking and even offering to put down a large deposit "if A/S could, or would build one onto a Fiat Maxi Chassis for me" didn't produce any response !... To this day we still think about that Berkshire... Take Care, Dave Adams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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