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X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
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userglobebuster
Posted: 14 March 2014 8:58 PM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 
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Location: Cornwall - Hymer A Class


I've tried one of these blanking plates, albeit on a 2.2 TDCI 153bhp Mondeo.- but identical.

Didn't work - but I suppose for less than a fiver it's worth a punt.

Had to resort to new EGR Valve again [the third one fitted in 180k] in each case the valve was not sooted but up the electronic component failed.

If you are still down on the Devon/Cornwall border I can recommend a couple of good independent garages.

userglobebuster
Posted: 14 March 2014 8:58 PM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 
Pillar of the forums

Posts: 759
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Location: Cornwall - Hymer A Class


I've tried one of these blanking plates, albeit on a 2.2 TDCI 153bhp Mondeo.- but identical.

Didn't work - but I suppose for less than a fiver it's worth a punt.

Had to resort to new EGR Valve again [the third one fitted in 180k] in each case the valve was not sooted but up the electronic component failed.

If you are still down on the Devon/Cornwall border I can recommend a couple of good independent garages.

userspospe
Posted: 14 March 2014 9:30 PM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 


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Location: Stockport 2014 Autosleeper Warwick Duo 2.2 130bhp


As previously stated, you cannot just blank the EGR by itself, you need to have the software in the ECU altered, otherwise you will bring up the MIL light.

Also, just unplugging the EGR will eventually bring on the MIL light (the time / distance is a bit variable for this to happen, but within about 200 miles).

For further help with these engines, try the Transit Forum at: http://fordtransit.org/ there you will find lots of experts and advice on having the EGR permanently deleted, if that is what you want to do.
userPeter James
Posted: 17 March 2014 6:51 PM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 


Many Thanks for the replies, Much Appreciated.
I found it runs well enough to get home with the MAP sensor disconnected, just a bit down on power and with the emissions light on, so I have run home with it and ordered a MAP sensor off ebay as a start.

Disconnecting the other sensor, or the EGR valve, makes no discernible difference - either with or without the MAP sensor connected. I don't know whether thats good or bad.
userPeter James
Posted: 17 March 2014 6:57 PM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 


Jimish - 2014-03-13 11:38 AM
don't know what an EGR valve is but they replaced it, relieved me of £282 and now the van is back to normal.


I would be very happy with that when you see the retail price of the valve is £260, and its very awkward to get at without lots of dismantling.
Have seen them on ebay for £100 though.
(Just been looking at parts online)
userpeter
Posted: 17 March 2014 11:12 PM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 


£260.00!! It's only a solenoid valve. You should be able to feel if the solenoid is working when you switch on the engine. You need to get someone to switch on the engine whilst you put your finger on the valve casing, you may also hear it click. In which case, if it's sticking, it might be gummed up. Before dismantling anything, replace the MAP sensor and take it out for a good thrashing. Which you should do occasionally anyway to keep the Catalytic converter clean.
userPeter James
Posted: 17 March 2014 11:50 PM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 


peter - 2014-03-17 11:12 PM

£260.00!! It's only a solenoid valve. You should be able to feel if the solenoid is working when you switch on the engine. You need to get someone to switch on the engine whilst you put your finger on the valve casing, you may also hear it click. In which case, if it's sticking, it might be gummed up. Before dismantling anything, replace the MAP sensor and take it out for a good thrashing. Which you should do occasionally anyway to keep the Catalytic converter clean.


Thanks Peter, will try That

Did a google search for EGR valve and came up with two - same part as far as I can see
Unipart £265.61 ntlparts £96.95

links;

http://www.unipartautomotive.co.uk/Fuel-Engine-Management/Engine-Management-Fuel-Inj-Parts/Citroen/Relay/all/2.2/2008/Parts.aspx

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Genuine-EGR-Valve-2-2-2-4-3-2-Diesel-HDi-TDCi-Multijet-Citroen-Fiat-Ford-Peugeot-/231022010114?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&fits=Model%3ARelay&hash=item35c9fc1f02
userPeter James
Posted: 18 March 2014 5:18 PM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 


New MAP sensor arrived, perhaps a little better, but still smoking a lot when the MAP sensor is connected. Not smoking much when it isn't connected, and it makes no difference whether the EGR valve is connected or not. Have ordered a blanking plate for the EGR valve. Don't have much confidence but at £4 it must be worth a try.
userMike88
Posted: 18 March 2014 5:31 PM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 


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How are you proposing to get the vehicle through the MOT?
userPeter James
Posted: 18 March 2014 6:20 PM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 


Mike88 - 2014-03-18 5:31 PM

How are you proposing to get the vehicle through the MOT?


Well I wasn't thinking that far ahead yet - I thought if it works OK with the EGR valve blanked off perhaps that would suggest the EGR valve is faulty, then I could replace it?
The seller I ordered it from says he does one with a little hole in that cuts out the emissions light - looks easy enough to make a hole in the solid one I have ordered?
Not a foolproof plan I know, but I can't think of a better one

solid blanking plate: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EGR-Valve-blanking-plate-FORD-MK7-TRANSIT-2-2-2-4-tdci-Land-Rover-Citroen-relay-/120940252274?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item1c2899cc72

plate with hole in: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/110934139626?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_sacat%3D0%26_from%3DR40%26_nkw%3D110934139626%26_rdc%3D1



(blanking plate 1.JPG)



(blanking plate 2.JPG)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments blanking plate 1.JPG (10KB - 366 downloads)
Attachments blanking plate 2.JPG (21KB - 397 downloads)
userglobebuster
Posted: 18 March 2014 8:01 PM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 
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Location: Cornwall - Hymer A Class


I've tried both variants - neither helped me.

The biggest problem is getting a good seal, as you will have no gasket on the face whatever way you fit it.

But worth a go for less than a fiver - personally I'd have bought both options, you'll spend more on bits drilling through stainless
userPeter James
Posted: 18 March 2014 8:46 PM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 


globebuster - 2014-03-18 8:01 PM

I've tried both variants - neither helped me.

The biggest problem is getting a good seal, as you will have no gasket on the face whatever way you fit it.

But worth a go for less than a fiver - personally I'd have bought both options, you'll spend more on bits drilling through stainless


Thanks for the reply.
He says the one without the hole is soft aluminum, the one with the hole is stainless steel, I don't know why the difference? But I have got aluminum sheet and could easily make one from that if I had one for a template.
If I knew it was the valve that was faulty I would get another one. I don't know but I just thought the blanking plate may be a way of finding out?
userBrambles
Posted: 18 March 2014 8:50 PM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 


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If the EGR valve is to blame then the fault will be it is stuck open...if it is to blame, so why not whip it off and have a look and see if it is stuck open. Then you might know if you need one or not. If it is stuck closed it s unlikely to be the problem, you are more likely to overheat and have higher NOX emissions.

If exhaust gases get fed back into combustion chamber at low engine rpm then the combustion temperatures will be a lot lower and you can get smoking. You would probably also have a very rough idle.
userPeter James
Posted: 19 March 2014 8:19 AM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 


Brambles - 2014-03-18 8:50 PM

If the EGR valve is to blame then the fault will be it is stuck open...if it is to blame, so why not whip it off and have a look and see if it is stuck open. Then you might know if you need one or not. If it is stuck closed it s unlikely to be the problem, you are more likely to overheat and have higher NOX emissions.

If exhaust gases get fed back into combustion chamber at low engine rpm then the combustion temperatures will be a lot lower and you can get smoking. You would probably also have a very rough idle.


Thanks for the reply
I suppose the EGR valve must be faulty as it makes no difference to anything whether its plugged in or not.
But its awkward to get to - the manual we have talks about draining the cooling system and removing hoses etc just to get to it. And with a blanking plate on the way I thought I would try that first. But I think you are right and I will have to take the EGR Valve off. Not that I will know what I am looking at when I have taken it off.
userPeter James
Posted: 19 March 2014 2:21 PM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 


The blanking plate arrived today (the one without the hole), fitted it easily from under the van without ramps (10mm ratchet spanner made it quicker and easier as space very limited), works a treat
Have just been on a 20 mile run, including a long steep hill to test the turbo, the van drives like new again
Several people have said it will bring the emissions warning light on, but it hasn't yet.
When it does I will probably be back here for some more help
Many Thanks to All
userBrambles
Posted: 19 March 2014 3:36 PM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 


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The emissions light is more likely to come on with high revs and engine is hot when the valve is told to open, then the management system will detect the fault. The light will have come on without the plate as it detects a fault on a sensor due to valve being open. So so far looking good you have found the fault.
I would not run without a working valve though, at high engine RPM and temperatures you could have too high a combustion heat and damage may result as the cooling sytem is not designed for the extra heat dissipationt. At lower RPM and low temperature the valve does not open so makes no difference to economy or emissions.
High NOX also corrodes exhaust pipes quicker and is very toxic. I cannot condone running without a working EGR valve as it is there to improve our environment and unless you are a boy racer will not make a big difference to ecomomy.


Edited by Brambles 2014-03-19 3:39 PM
userKeithl
Posted: 19 March 2014 5:15 PM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 


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Location: Birmingham. 2004 Auto-Trail Cheyenne Mercedes 313.


Hi Peter,

I agree with Jon here, you appear to have found the reason for your failure and subsequent MAP failures but also do not condone running without EGR as this in turn will probably lead to further problems.

My suggestion would be to get your EGR valve replaced as soon as possible.

Keith.
userPeter James
Posted: 19 March 2014 8:24 PM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 


Well I don't know what else it could be but the EGR valve?
And yet if the EGR valve was stuck open I don't understand why it ran perfectly well back from Plymouth, albeit at moderately reduced power, but no smoke, as long as the MAP sensor was unplugged?
It was only plugging in the MAP sensor that made it cough and splutter black smoke with severe loss of power, especially at low revs - even when I renewed the MAP sensor it made little difference.
Until I put the blanking plate in, then it ran like new again
(Its only done 34,000 miles)

Edited by Peter James 2014-03-19 8:33 PM
userBrambles
Posted: 19 March 2014 9:34 PM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 


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When you unplug the MAP sensor the management system falls back to safe default fuel settings.
With it is connnected and with the valve opens when it should not then its readings are all wrong and fuel is adjusted accordingly. It probably senses a higher pressure than it should ( exhaust feeding back increases pressure) so it provides more fuel. Running way over rich it pumps out smoke.
Something like that anyway!! Above 2000 rpm when it started to run smooth it was probably instructing the valve to open and so ran absolutely fine.
userPeter James
Posted: 20 March 2014 8:45 PM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 


Brambles - 2014-03-19 9:34 PM

When you unplug the MAP sensor the management system falls back to safe default fuel settings.
With it is connnected and with the valve opens when it should not then its readings are all wrong and fuel is adjusted accordingly. It probably senses a higher pressure than it should ( exhaust feeding back increases pressure) so it provides more fuel. Running way over rich it pumps out smoke.
Something like that anyway!! Above 2000 rpm when it started to run smooth it was probably instructing the valve to open and so ran absolutely fine.


That would explain it. Thanks Brambles
userBrambles
Posted: 21 March 2014 12:06 AM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 


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If you are really wanting to get into what goes on in an engine, you can get a cheap OBDII interface and use a laptop computer and some free software such as multiecuscan which is easy to find online and download. It gives you, I think, 20 minutes use per session for the free package, and limited number of data streams. Think it is up to 4 or 5 you can select. With the licenced versions it is dozens of data streams and unlimited. Anyway, its very useful for reading the codes.
You can get ELM327 interfaces on Ebay but I know many who have bought this one http://www.fasttech.com/products/0/10000443/1047201-elm327-usb-interface-car-scanner-tools
from china and takes 2 to 3 weeks to arrive. you can also get blue tooth versions as well.
Its really easy to use ( forget the software which comes with them (probably comtains malware anyway), download multiecuscan free version which is for Fiats/Alpha/Lancia.

Its very useful for not just reading fault codes but controlling and testing items which are controlled by the management system. You can turn radiator fans on and off for testing them, warning lights individually, and various solenoids, and fuel pump. Very useful tool indeed when you do not have access to a code reader and all for under £7. All you need is a laptop or netbook.


userMuswell
Posted: 21 March 2014 7:54 AM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 
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Brambles - 2014-03-21 12:06 AM

If you are really wanting to get into what goes on in an engine, you can get a cheap OBDII interface and use a laptop computer and some free software such as multiecuscan which is easy to find online and download.


If a little knowledge is dangerous just think what a lot can do
userBrambles
Posted: 21 March 2014 8:07 AM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 


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A little learning is a dangerous thing;
drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
there shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
and drinking largely sobers us again.

Alexander Pope (1688 - 1744)



Edited by Brambles 2014-03-21 8:08 AM
userMuswell
Posted: 21 March 2014 8:46 AM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 
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Brambles - 2014-03-21 8:07 AM

A little learning is a dangerous thing;
drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
there shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
and drinking largely sobers us again.

Alexander Pope (1688 - 1744)



Nice. By the way my comment was facetious, not a crack at your post.

What would he have written if he had read some of the "learning"posted on the internet? It is easy to think you know a lot but not know enough to know how little you know.

Edited by Muswell 2014-03-21 8:50 AM
userBrambles
Posted: 21 March 2014 8:54 AM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 


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'ipse se nihil scire id unum sciat'

I know that I know nothing.

userPeter James
Posted: 3 April 2014 11:04 AM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 


Brambles - 2014-03-19 3:36 PM

I cannot condone running without a working EGR valve as it is there to improve our environment


I respect that view and would not have blocked the EGR valve off if it was working OK.
But I wonder if it would lower the emissions in practice - after all the emissions light was off when it was belching out black smoke, then went on when I disconnected the MAP sensor and the smoke cleared.
On the Ducato forum is a guy who fitted a new EGR valve which lasted only 100 miles. He is asking for help but after a week has still got no replies: http://www.fiatforum.com/ducato/346243-2008-ducato-3ltr-egr-valve-problem.html#post3441881
I could just say I have fitted a new EGR valve, but I would rather be honest about it.
1,000 miles later the blanking plate is still in, the van has never run better, there is no visible smoke, and the Emissions light still hasn't come on

Edited by Peter James 2014-04-03 11:09 AM
userMike88
Posted: 3 April 2014 11:21 AM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 


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Peter James - 2014-04-03 11:04 AM

Brambles - 2014-03-19 3:36 PM

I cannot condone running without a working EGR valve as it is there to improve our environment


I respect that view and would not have blocked the EGR valve off if it was working OK.
But I wonder if it would lower the emissions in practice - after all the emissions light was off when it was belching out black smoke, then went on when I disconnected the MAP sensor and the smoke cleared.
On the Ducato forum is a guy who fitted a new EGR valve which lasted only 100 miles. He is asking for help but after a week has still got no replies: http://www.fiatforum.com/ducato/346243-2008-ducato-3ltr-egr-valve-problem.html#post3441881
I could just say I have fitted a new EGR valve, but I would rather be honest about it.
1,000 miles later the blanking plate is still in, the van has never run better, there is no visible smoke, and the Emissions light still hasn't come on


Isn't your solution temporary though as blanking off the EGR is an MOT failure issue isn't it?
userPeter James
Posted: 3 April 2014 11:35 AM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 


Mike88 - 2014-04-03 11:21 AM

Isn't your solution temporary though as blanking off the EGR is an MOT failure issue isn't it?


It is if the emissions light is on - but in my case it isn't.
Although apparently it has brought the light on with other vans.
userRayjsj
Posted: 5 April 2014 5:57 PM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 


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Vehicles getting far too clever for their own good. (actually not clever at all, black smoke created and no emission light on ). Ray
userPeter James
Posted: 8 April 2014 7:27 AM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 


Peter James - 2014-03-18 8:46 PM

He says the one without the hole is soft aluminum, the one with the hole is stainless steel, I don't know why the difference?


Reading that back I think its just dawned on me why the plate with the hole in is stainless steel (more heat resistant), whereas the solid plate is soft aluminium (better seal but less heat resistant)
Think of a domestic hot water tap. If its permanently turned off, the water behind it is cold, so it doesn’t need to be heat resistant. Its only when the water starts to flow through it that the water comes through from the boiler and runs hot, that the tap needs to be heat resistant..
So if you did need a plate with the hole in, perhaps you would need to send for the stainless steel one, rather than drill a hole in the aluminium one, as I previously suggested.
(but mine still runs perfectly with the solid aluminium plate)
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