Violet1956 Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 I'm being inundated with requests from very good friends to sign a petition to make a whole life sentence mandatory for those that cause the death of a police officer or an emergency worker. I can understand the sentiment that underlies these requests because Pc Harper's death was tragic and the manner in which it occured was horrific. Nevertheless I am not going to sign the petition. Arbitrary sentences that have no regard for all the possible circumstances in which a person can cause the death of an emergency worker, whilst superficially attractive, has the potential to be unjustified in some circumstances. If the sentences imposed on the people that caused his death are too lenient then let our courts, applying due process decide that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 As usual some people think they understand more from reading the 'newspaper' reports, or seeing a photo of the prisoners smiling, than the members of the Jury who sat through all the evidence. Easier for a populist politician to pander to them than educate them :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 Seems to me there’s little point in giving a sentence that a prisoner is only going to serve half off. There’s no real deterrent in that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 jumpstart - 2020-08-25 3:06 PM Seems to me there’s little point in giving a sentence that a prisoner is only going to serve half off. There’s no real deterrent in that. They get a longer sentence with time off for good behaviour as an incentive to reform. But these will be treated like Heros in jail, and learn how to prosper through violence and intimidation, so probably come out worse than they went in. :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 Hang cop killers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted August 25, 2020 Author Share Posted August 25, 2020 Birdbrain - 2020-08-25 4:00 PM Hang cop killers I don't think Pc Harper's family are asking for that Antony. If you kill someone having intended to do so that is murder. If you intend to cause grievous bodily harm to someone and death results that also is murder. If you are reckless in your actions towards someone who dies as a result that is manslaughter. Recklessness is a most difficult concept in law. I am rather stale as to what decisions there have been in the higher courts as to how recklessness is defined. When I studied criminal law many years ago it was an act or omission on your part that a reasonable person would foresee as having the consequences that resulted. As John has pointed out we did not hear the evidence or the directions given to the jury about what they had to consider in Pc Harper’s case. Nevertheless, sometimes an act of manslaughter is so close to murder that the penalty must be as severe. These youths showed a callous disregard for Pc Harper’s safety. The public expects them to suffer but the truth is they will never suffer as much as he did or the family he has left behind. We have abandoned the death penalty in the UK for good reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 Violet1956 - 2020-08-25 4:12 PM Birdbrain - 2020-08-25 4:00 PM Hang cop killers I don't think Pc Harper's family are asking for that Antony. If you kill someone having intended to do so that is murder. If you intend to cause grievous bodily harm to someone and death results that also is murder. If you are reckless in your actions towards someone who dies as a result that is manslaughter. Recklessness is a most difficult concept in law. I am rather stale as to what decisions there have been in the higher courts as to how recklessness is defined. When I studied criminal law many years ago it was an act or omission on your part that a reasonable person would foresee as having the consequences that resulted. As John has pointed out we did not hear the evidence or the directions given to the jury about what they had to consider in Pc Harper’s case. Nevertheless, sometimes an act of manslaughter is so close to murder that the penalty must be as severe. These youths showed a callous disregard for Pc Harper’s safety. The public expects them to suffer but the truth is they will never suffer as much as he did or the family he has left behind. We have abandoned the death penalty in the UK for good reasons. The law disregards what most families want or dont want ... The 3 involved are young career criminals who will carry on being criminals and inflicting misery on countless other innocent folk when they are released ... They laughed their way throughout the hearing, let them be a burden no more on the taxpayer and let them laugh at the end of a rope ... Abandoning the death penalty by the way doesnt mean its correct to have done so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 Violet1956 - 2020-08-25 2:33 PM If the sentences imposed on the people that caused his death are too lenient then let our courts, applying due process decide that. I'm inclined to go with that as their sentences are already under consideration at the Court of Appeal. I think if the judge had set a minimum time to serve on each sentence, might have been better. As it is the driver who got 16 years, may well be out in 8. The other pair got 13 years, so out by 6yr and 6 month max. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-53862037 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 I think there are various countries where they stone gays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 jumpstart - 2020-08-25 3:06 PM Seems to me there’s little point in giving a sentence that a prisoner is only going to serve half off. There’s no real deterrent in that. Precisely. What I would like to see is the end of " spinning " on the media, when announcing sentences. Such as : " The prisoner was found guilty - and sent to prison for life " We all know that's not true - so why say it ? Another favourite of mine : " The judge described the crime as horrific - and the GANG were sent to prison for a TOTAL of 40 years " Sounds tough - BUT look at the detail and you find there were 8 people in the gang - - who got 5 years each - and will be let out in 2 years. How can people believe in the justice system when they are so often misled. :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted August 25, 2020 Author Share Posted August 25, 2020 jumpstart - 2020-08-25 3:06 PM Seems to me there’s little point in giving a sentence that a prisoner is only going to serve half off. There’s no real deterrent in that. I don't think most criminals think of what their sentence would be if they were found out. If they think at all, and that is a moot point, they think about the risk of detection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 Violet1956 - 2020-08-25 2:33 PM I'm being inundated with requests from very good friends to sign a petition to make a whole life sentence mandatory for those that cause the death of a police officer or an emergency worker. I can understand the sentiment that underlies these requests because Pc Harper's death was tragic and the manner in which it occured was horrific. Nevertheless I am not going to sign the petition. Arbitrary sentences that have no regard for all the possible circumstances in which a person can cause the death of an emergency worker, whilst superficially attractive, has the potential to be unjustified in some circumstances. If the sentences imposed on the people that caused his death are too lenient then let our courts, applying due process decide that. A long drop on a short bit of Chatham Hemp........problem sorted ;-) ...... But I have never been a limpy lefty liberal have I Veronica? :D ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted August 25, 2020 Author Share Posted August 25, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-08-25 6:37 PM Violet1956 - 2020-08-25 2:33 PM I'm being inundated with requests from very good friends to sign a petition to make a whole life sentence mandatory for those that cause the death of a police officer or an emergency worker. I can understand the sentiment that underlies these requests because Pc Harper's death was tragic and the manner in which it occured was horrific. Nevertheless I am not going to sign the petition. Arbitrary sentences that have no regard for all the possible circumstances in which a person can cause the death of an emergency worker, whilst superficially attractive, has the potential to be unjustified in some circumstances. If the sentences imposed on the people that caused his death are too lenient then let our courts, applying due process decide that. A long drop on a short bit of Chatham Hemp........problem sorted ;-) ...... . But I have never been a limpy lefty liberal have I Veronica? :D ....... Not convinced you could hang them yourself Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 Violet1956 - 2020-08-25 6:30 PM I don't think most criminals think of what their sentence would be if they were found out. If they think at all, and that is a moot point, they think about the risk of detection. Precisely But unfortunately it takes brains to improve the detection rate Wheras any fool can just increase the sentences for the tiny unfortunate minority who get caught Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-08-25 6:37 PM A long drop on a short bit of Chatham Hemp........problem sorted ;-) ...... But I have never been a limpy lefty liberal have I Veronica? :D ....... I don't know what you are because you are contradicting yourself again On the one hand you are slating the judiciary (who incidentally are appointed by your hero BoJo) Whilst on the other you would give them the power of life and death over us. Do you ever think things through? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 Violet1956 - 2020-08-25 6:55 PM pelmetman - 2020-08-25 6:37 PM Violet1956 - 2020-08-25 2:33 PM I'm being inundated with requests from very good friends to sign a petition to make a whole life sentence mandatory for those that cause the death of a police officer or an emergency worker. I can understand the sentiment that underlies these requests because Pc Harper's death was tragic and the manner in which it occured was horrific. Nevertheless I am not going to sign the petition. Arbitrary sentences that have no regard for all the possible circumstances in which a person can cause the death of an emergency worker, whilst superficially attractive, has the potential to be unjustified in some circumstances. If the sentences imposed on the people that caused his death are too lenient then let our courts, applying due process decide that. A long drop on a short bit of Chatham Hemp........problem sorted ;-) ...... . But I have never been a limpy lefty liberal have I Veronica? :D ....... Not convinced you could hang them yourself Dave. Being a meat eater I do prefer other folk to kill my dinner ;-) ...... Given I don't have your liberal lefty soppy view of humans :-| ....... Frankly I think we are overated......... Just sayin...... I could deffo hang scum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 Violet1956 - 2020-08-25 6:30 PM jumpstart - 2020-08-25 3:06 PM Seems to me there’s little point in giving a sentence that a prisoner is only going to serve half off. There’s no real deterrent in that. I don't think most criminals think of what their sentence would be if they were found out. If they think at all, and that is a moot point, they think about the risk of detection. So you are saying jail isn’t a deterrent it’s just a punishment. Maybe we should punish them more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 Perhaps we should also give a mention to the judges, the way they are appointed and perceived lack of accountability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 jumpstart - 2020-08-25 4:35 PM I think there are various countries where they stone gays. All of those countries follow the religion the squad defend with a passion ... Hypocrite heaven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 jumpstart - 2020-08-25 7:38 PM Perhaps we should also give a mention to the judges, the way they are appointed and perceived lack of accountability. So just how many judges has Boris appointed? ;-) ......... Just askin >:-) .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted August 25, 2020 Author Share Posted August 25, 2020 jumpstart - 2020-08-25 7:38 PM Perhaps we should also give a mention to the judges, the way they are appointed and perceived lack of accountability. Accountable to whom? There are onward appeals available if they get it wrong. They are beholden to the law. Would you have it any different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted August 25, 2020 Author Share Posted August 25, 2020 jumpstart - 2020-08-25 7:30 PM Violet1956 - 2020-08-25 6:30 PM jumpstart - 2020-08-25 3:06 PM Seems to me there’s little point in giving a sentence that a prisoner is only going to serve half off. There’s no real deterrent in that. I don't think most criminals think of what their sentence would be if they were found out. If they think at all, and that is a moot point, they think about the risk of detection. So you are saying jail isn’t a deterrent it’s just a punishment. Maybe we should punish them more. There's no logic in your statement. We should improve our detection rates. The more likely you are to be caught the less likely you are to transgress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 Violet1956 - 2020-08-25 8:40 PM jumpstart - 2020-08-25 7:38 PM Perhaps we should also give a mention to the judges, the way they are appointed and perceived lack of accountability. Accountable to whom? There are onward appeals available if they get it wrong. They are beholden to the law. Would you have it any different? Accountable for poor judgment. Mistakes even. When was the last judge fired? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 Violet1956 - 2020-08-25 8:42 PM jumpstart - 2020-08-25 7:30 PM Violet1956 - 2020-08-25 6:30 PM jumpstart - 2020-08-25 3:06 PM Seems to me there’s little point in giving a sentence that a prisoner is only going to serve half off. There’s no real deterrent in that. I don't think most criminals think of what their sentence would be if they were found out. If they think at all, and that is a moot point, they think about the risk of detection. So you are saying jail isn’t a deterrent it’s just a punishment. Maybe we should punish them more. There's no logic in your statement. We should improve our detection rates. The more likely you are to be caught the less likely you are to transgress. Is prison just a punishment.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 Violet1956 - 2020-08-25 8:42 PM jumpstart - 2020-08-25 7:30 PM Violet1956 - 2020-08-25 6:30 PM jumpstart - 2020-08-25 3:06 PM Seems to me there’s little point in giving a sentence that a prisoner is only going to serve half off. There’s no real deterrent in that. I don't think most criminals think of what their sentence would be if they were found out. If they think at all, and that is a moot point, they think about the risk of detection. So you are saying jail isn’t a deterrent it’s just a punishment. Maybe we should punish them more. There's no logic in your statement. We should improve our detection rates. The more likely you are to be caught the less likely you are to transgress. Still defending the "system" Veronica? *-) ......... We all know the justice system is on the side of the criminals and has been for decades >:-( .......... Frankly we are reaping what the LLLLB have sown ;-) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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