AlanS Posted February 4, 2016 Share Posted February 4, 2016 We have always used Calor Lite cylinders with our motorhomes - a legacy of our caravanning days. We had just run out of one of our cylinders and when looking at the price of Calor LPG it was only just over £2 more to get a 13 kg refill cylinder than a 6 kg Lite. So me thinks why not change one of our cylinders for a 13 kg. The AutoTrail handbook says that the Frontier range will accommodate 2 x 13 kg Calor cylinders, so no problem there then. I had an old 3.9kg Calor bottle in the garage and asked my local dealer if he would exchange that for a 13 kg - no problem says he ( I can then keep my empty Calor Lite in case I want to go back to it later). I took my empty cylinder out and hoisted the big bugger into position, strapped it into the bracket and put the pigtail back onto the new one. The cylinder filled the locker and was close to the door and I closed the gas locker door - that was a mistake !! Tried to open it again but the door wouldn't release. I got the torch out and laid on my back to see what the problem was. The cylinder was stopping the lock latches retracting. I managed to get a thin steel bar in the small gap an eventually managed to get one lock latch to retract then the other. I tried it again and the same thing happened - stupid me, still I know how to release it now ! What I had to do was to get / make a wooden wedge about 30 mm thick to force the cylinder over from the side of the gas locker but still managing to use the retaining bracket and strap to secure it. By doing this it was clear of the lock and still possible to install the other full Calor Lite but I don't think I could have got another 13 kg one in side by side and get the door to open. Anyone else had this problem ? Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted February 4, 2016 Share Posted February 4, 2016 Autotrails are not generally known for their overly generous payloads and given the 5% 'construction variation allowance' plus taking into account the potential weight implications of other add ons like awning, spare wheel, second battery, solar panel, sat dish I would be wary about installing two 13kg Calor Gas bottles as they are flippin' heavy. Maybe if you have not yetalready, a visit to a weighbridge would be worth considering when the van is fully laden in holiday mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cleddytanhouse Posted February 4, 2016 Share Posted February 4, 2016 When I needed to change an empty bottle 6kg in November in My Autotrail I tried a 13kg one and it fitted ok, apart from the wedges on the floor that did not quite fit. However, I now have one 13kg and one 6kg bottle. I think that I may actually be able to squeeze two 13th bottles in. I will probably adapt the wedges in the gas bottle store now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted February 4, 2016 Share Posted February 4, 2016 Ever since we bought our Cheyenne (8 years ago now) I have carried 2 by 13 kg Calor cylinders but one thing I have found out is that not every Calor cylinder is identical to the next! The physical size of the cylinder (Diameter and overall height) does not alter but the height and diameter of the 'foot' and likewise the height and diameter of the 'collar' do vary tremendously, probably with the age of the cylinder. Some cylinders seem to fit the locker far better than others so don't rule out using 13 kg cylinders purely on the first one you try. In fact one cylinder I tried was such a poor fit I put it aside for use with the BBQ! Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninian Posted February 4, 2016 Share Posted February 4, 2016 Hi, I have two 13kg in my van no problem fitted OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanS Posted February 4, 2016 Author Share Posted February 4, 2016 I don't think it is so much the floor wedges, I think it is more to do with the bulky cylinder retaining bracket which, because of its position forces the cylinder out towards the door and consequently the lock latches. Alan cleddytanhouse - 2016-02-04 7:44 PM When I needed to change an empty bottle 6kg in November in My Autotrail I tried a 13kg one and it fitted ok, apart from the wedges on the floor that did not quite fit. However, I now have one 13kg and one 6kg bottle. I think that I may actually be able to squeeze two 13th bottles in. I will probably adapt the wedges in the gas bottle store now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sydney1 Posted February 4, 2016 Share Posted February 4, 2016 We have the Scout with same locker size and always have carried 2 13kg bottles and never had an issue.I always thought there was plenty of room but will have a closer look again this weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolero boy Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 AlanS - 2016-02-04 9:19 PM I don't think it is so much the floor wedges, I think it is more to do with the bulky cylinder retaining bracket which, because of its position forces the cylinder out towards the door and consequently the lock latches. Alan cleddytanhouse - 2016-02-04 7:44 PM When I needed to change an empty bottle 6kg in November in My Autotrail I tried a 13kg one and it fitted ok, apart from the wedges on the floor that did not quite fit. However, I now have one 13kg and one 6kg bottle. I think that I may actually be able to squeeze two 13th bottles in. I will probably adapt the wedges in the gas bottle store now? alan, could you not move the plastic retaining bracket to the side of the locker thus allowing the cylinder to sit closer to the rear of the locker. from memory, they are only self-tapped into the locker wall? from the AT website.... Please note: All weights quoted are with the fresh water tank and waste water tank totally empty. Should you choose to travel with your fresh water tank full you must amend the other weights accordingly. no mention of gas either.... this is because of a recent change in the way payloads are quoted....the old 90% full tanks a d gas is no longer a requirement of the MIRO.....manufacturers can now dress it up (quote much larger payloads) provided that the small print (as above) states clearly whats not included.... some vans are now being quoted with 100kg++ more payload than previously.....on the same van.... great for marketing but a bit naughty.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billggski Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 The general advice to "take it to a weighbridge" is sound, especially if you buy a second hand motorhome which may have extras like big gas bottles added above the original. (Or your wife wants cast iron pans as mine does) You can then make sure you are running the correct tyre pressures as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 AlanS - 2016-02-04 9:15 PM ...Many people run with 2 Gaslow cylinders of a similar size to the 13kg Calor... On-line adverts specify the dimensions of a ‘standard’ Calor 13kg propane canister as 580mm(Height) x 315mm(Diameter) or 580mm(Height) x 318mm(Diameter) for a Calor 15kg butane canister. I don’t know if that’s exactly accurate but (as Keithl warns above) there are certainly detail differences in the Calor canister designs. This won’t normally matter when these canisters are used in ‘domestic’ applications, but they can become critical when motorhomes have a gas-locker that can only just take two of the large Calor bottles. The present Gaslow R67 11kg-capacity bottle’s dimensions are smaller at 560mm(Height) x 304mm(diameter). They are designed to fit in a gas-locker intended to take Continental-European 11kg bottles and (in principle) there should be no installation problems whatsoever when a motorhome has a gas-locker able to accommodate Calor 13kg/15kg canisters. In practice Sod’s Law may come into play... My Rapido 640’s gas-locker is designed to accept a pair of French 11kg bottles. It ought to accept a pair of Gaslow R67 11kg bottles without difficulty, but there’s a catch. The R67 bottle’s outlet is angled upwards, unlike the horizontal outlet of an ‘exchange-only’ bottle. The 640’s locker’s roof is angled across its rear (I don’t know why this should be, other than from bloody-mindedness on Rapido’s part!) and this limits the R67 bottle’s orientation options once the gas ‘pigtail’ has been attached. And then there are the pigtails themselves which, in my Rapido’s case, are (as standard) the Truma ‘safety’ type with the bulky push-button connector at the bottle-end. To get my Gaslow R67 bottle into the Rapido’s locker I’ve felt it necessary to dispense with the Truma pigtail and replace it with a stainless-steel one that has a much neater bottle-end connector. So even if a gas-bottle’s dimensions are such that it will fit into a gas-locker, there are other things that can have an impact on installation. (And I haven’t bothered to mention Rapido’s amusing bottle retention system, that I’ve also got rid of...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duncan MMM Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 Thread has been moderated. Please be respectful and civil to other posters, even if you don't agree with what they have to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 AlanS - 2016-02-04 9:19 PM ... I think it is more to do with the bulky cylinder retaining bracket which, because of its position forces the cylinder out towards the door and consequently the lock latches. Alan Hi As has been said , could you get away with moving or doing away with this "bracket" and just use a simple strap?... When I used a 13kg bottle in our previous van(Chausson) and as well as the existing strap ( which only really half heartedly "retained" it).I also used a ratchet strap, passed over the top of the shroud and hooked down to the steel base of the locker.. (..as I wasn't overly chuffed with the idea of 35kg(77lbs!) of gas bottle bouncing up and down, "retained" only by a couple of self tappers, screwed into lightweight ply :-S ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 pepe63 Images of Auto-Trail gas-lockers https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=auto-trail+gas-locker+images show a wide retention ‘bracket’ (with a strap running through it) on the locker’s rear wall. As you suggest, removing the bracket and attaching the strap directly to the wall so that the bottle is closer to the rear wall might well gain enough space in front of the bottle to resolve the current door-locking problem. My Rapido’s gas-locker is on the left of the motorhome. The locker carries two user refillable gas-bottles - a Gaslow R67 11kg bottle in the right part of the locker and a 5kg ‘plastic’ bottle in the left. As the Gaslow bottle is much the heavier (and I reckon I’m more likely to have a high G-force frontal accident than be hit hard from behind) the Gaslow bottle is retained by two heavy-duty ratchet straps and the plastic bottle by two traditional nylon straps. The steel floor of the locker is covered with thick composite material (scrounged from my workplace years ago) into which cut-outs have been made that match the diameter of each bottle’s base - this ensures that there’s no chance of the bottles moving about when the motorhome is being driven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve928 Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 Derek Uzzell - 2016-02-05 10:00 AM (And I haven’t bothered to mention Rapido’s amusing bottle retention system, that I’ve also got rid of...) I'm glad that it's not just Bailey then. Their gas bottle straps are now stopping the legs of the stowed table from rattling - they are just about up to that job.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanS Posted February 5, 2016 Author Share Posted February 5, 2016 Derek Uzzell - 2016-02-05 1:55 PM pepe63 Images of Auto-Trail gas-lockers https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=auto-trail+gas-locker+images show a wide retention ‘bracket’ (with a strap running through it) on the locker’s rear wall. As you suggest, removing the bracket and attaching the strap directly to the wall so that the bottle is closer to the rear wall might well gain enough space in front of the bottle to resolve the current door-locking problem. My Rapido’s gas-locker is on the left of the motorhome. The locker carries two user refillable gas-bottles - a Gaslow R67 11kg bottle in the right part of the locker and a 5kg ‘plastic’ bottle in the left. As the Gaslow bottle is much the heavier (and I reckon I’m more likely to have a high G-force frontal accident than be hit hard from behind) the Gaslow bottle is retained by two heavy-duty ratchet straps and the plastic bottle by two traditional nylon straps. The steel floor of the locker is covered with thick composite material (scrounged from my workplace years ago) into which cut-outs have been made that match the diameter of each bottle’s base - this ensures that there’s no chance of the bottles moving about when the motorhome is being driven. Hi Derek et al Thank you for all your comments pertaining to the location of the cylinders in the locker and relevant suggestions. I did think about trying to move the bracket but thought it might have been more substantially secured to the rear gas locker wall than just screwed - should have looked properly and possibly given it a try. The diameter of the Gaslow to the Calor propane cylinders are not too dissimilar really and 2 large cylinders would look a little cosy in the locker. I think, however the AT gas locker is not bad on size in its width, I just think it could be a little bit deeper to accommodate the cylinder retaining bracket. I too have the Truma pigtail with the safety cut-off and didn't find it too bad if the open part of the cylinder collar is set at about 45 degrees - the hose is a little stiff but not putting any undue force on the regulator.. One thing I di not mention is that previously when using the smaller cylinders, e.g. the Calor Lite, the retaining bracket is set too high and the straps from the bracket just sit on the cylinder shoulder. It was the same on my previous AutoTrail. When tightening the strap it had a tendency to roll off the edge of the shoulder. I made a raised wooden platform about 50 mm high complete with cylinder locating wedges at the base to overcome this and this held the cylinders secure in all our travels. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanS Posted February 5, 2016 Author Share Posted February 5, 2016 bolero boy - 2016-02-05 8:51 AM AlanS - 2016-02-04 9:19 PM I don't think it is so much the floor wedges, I think it is more to do with the bulky cylinder retaining bracket which, because of its position forces the cylinder out towards the door and consequently the lock latches. Alan cleddytanhouse - 2016-02-04 7:44 PM When I needed to change an empty bottle 6kg in November in My Autotrail I tried a 13kg one and it fitted ok, apart from the wedges on the floor that did not quite fit. However, I now have one 13kg and one 6kg bottle. I think that I may actually be able to squeeze two 13th bottles in. I will probably adapt the wedges in the gas bottle store now? alan, could you not move the plastic retaining bracket to the side of the locker thus allowing the cylinder to sit closer to the rear of the locker. from memory, they are only self-tapped into the locker wall? from the AT website.... Please note: All weights quoted are with the fresh water tank and waste water tank totally empty. Should you choose to travel with your fresh water tank full you must amend the other weights accordingly. no mention of gas either.... this is because of a recent change in the way payloads are quoted....the old 90% full tanks a d gas is no longer a requirement of the MIRO.....manufacturers can now dress it up (quote much larger payloads) provided that the small print (as above) states clearly whats not included.... some vans are now being quoted with 100kg++ more payload than previously.....on the same van.... great for marketing but a bit naughty.... Hi Not wishing to go off topic again but with respect to your comment above this is an extract from the AT Frontier 2015 Owners Handbook :- "Please Note: **The Mass in Running Order includes a 75kg allowance for the driver and 90% full fuel tank, gas bottles and fresh water tank emptied to it's 20 litre travelling capacity." Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolero boy Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Alan, i was merely ponting out that for 2016, AT (and others, no doubt) had changed the way they 'calculate' payload....as per my quote from the current website.....and presumably 2016 brochures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanS Posted February 6, 2016 Author Share Posted February 6, 2016 bolero boy - 2016-02-06 8:24 AM Alan, i was merely ponting out that for 2016, AT (and others, no doubt) had changed the way they 'calculate' payload....as per my quote from the current website.....and presumably 2016 brochures. No problem. I have had a look at AT's 2016 sales brochure and they now state the MIRO as: "The Mass in Running Order (MRO) is the mass of the empty vehicle including a 75kg allowance for the driver, the Diesel tank full and an LPG cylinder full. The MRO is calculated with the freshwater tank empty on all models and with one 13kg LPG cylinder. Should you choose to travel with water in your freshwater tank, or an additional LPG cylinder, then the MRO figure must be adjusted accordingly." A little bit different to last year where the brochure didn't actually give a definition of MIRO but the Owners Handbook did. As yet the 2016 AT Handbook is not on-line and available to download. Actually AT is one of the manufacturers that have a very good weight calculator on their website where you can enter the details of your MH or proposed MH and add your extras, including passenger. etc. and this gives you an idea as to what payload you have left. Irrespective of that, our MH has a Maximum Gross weight of 4250 kg and a MRO of 3450 kg giving a payload of 800 kg maximum for the wife, her clothes, bedding, food, water, her relaxer chair, her 2 sun umbrellas, etc. etc. - so not bad for the 2 of us (I travel light with just a few pairs of shorts and tee shirts !). Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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