Tracker Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 Our Warwick Duo has an Autogas lpg tank installed under the van and the isolating valve is very 'conveniently' located on the tank under the middle of the van. We are hoping to use Eurotunnel and whereas the ferries don't seem concerned with gas being switched off Eurotunnel do seem to take it very seriously which has never been a problem with gas bottles in a locker but turning the gas off inside the van appears not to satisfy Eurotunnel. At the moment the only way is for me to get under the van, remove the cover and turn the gas off by hand but in order to check that it is off a Eurotunnel checker would need to do the same - and my guess is that he/she would be even more reluctant than me to get on their back under the van - especially if it is raining. There are remote switched 12 volt operated solenoid type isolating valves available as a Google search or three has found but they all isolate the system on the low pressure side - ie after the pigtail and regulator - and Eurotunnel appear to insist that the tank is isolated at the gas tank high pressure outlet point - ie in between the tank and pigtail. It should be simple enough to achieve but I can't find anything that will do that job? Surely I am not the first person to have this problem and I wonder how other folk have solved the problem to the satisfaction of Eurotunnel? Thanks folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowan Lee Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 We have never had a problem, have used the tunnel six times now. We show them where the gas is turned off as it comes into the van, but we have never had to turn it off at the valve on the tank, I suppose technically we should, but they have never asked. I should perhaps explain that there are three on/off switches in the cupboard where the gas bottles used to be. The pipe from the tank comes into this locker, so I open it, show them the valves, explain that the tank is underneath and that's that, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 here you go, but unfortunately its Trauma device, but looks to be fitted on high pressure side. what do you do when travelling anyway, there are always the ferries..and at the end of the day they have to check it not you so let them scrabble underneath..... http://www.truma.com/uk/en/gas-supply/accessories-gas-installation.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted May 17, 2014 Author Share Posted May 17, 2014 Thanks Rowan. I'm aware of the possibility of being refused passage and the inconvenience and cost of that if I could not turn the gas off at the tank as they seem to want, so I emailed Eurotunnel and their reply was unclear. I think the issue might be partly to do with how the gas gets from the tank into the van, whether it be by high or low pressure metal tubing or rubber pigtail and I get the impression that it may be the rubber part of the 'live' pressurised gas system they are unhappy about? I'm guessing that maybe your van has a bulkhead regulator in the former gas locker so the gas gets from tank to regulator by high pressure metal tubing whereas on our tank the connection between tank and regulator, which are both under slung is by rubber pigtail and they seem not to like that? I have emailed them again asking for clarification and if I ever get a sensible answer I will print it and take it with me for reference just in case, and also post it on here for others to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted May 17, 2014 Author Share Posted May 17, 2014 JudgeMental - 2014-05-17 9:40 PM here you go, but unfortunately its Trauma device, but looks to be fitted on high pressure side. what do you do when travelling anyway, there are always the ferries..and at the end of the day they have to check it not you so let them scrabble underneath..... http://www.truma.com/uk/en/gas-supply/accessories-gas-installation.php Thanks Eddie, this is the one I too found that operates on the low pressure side of the regulator and that seems not to be what Eurotunnel want? I am by no means an expert on refillables but I don't see how you refill the bottle shown without removing it from the van from the diagram in your link? Perhaps I am missing something? The low pressure isolator is so simple to fit that for around £100 it's not worth not doing - if it will satisfy Eurotunnel? Or it may just be that the Eurotunnel operatives verify that the switch is in it's off position and look no further? They may well have to scramble underneath to check but I will first have had to scramble underneath to turn it off, and on again in France, and off and on again on the way home! I wish I knew!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 your right..I only looked at the schematic quickly and assumed what was the filler is in fact the BBQ point! Just see if you can get some sense out of eurotunnel, or like i said earlier stick with those awful ferries :-S The high pressure side holds a surprising amount of gas, 1-2 liters which is normally trapped in hose due to non return valve on bottles.... I guess you isolate from manifold when travelling? what you have seems a daft set up to be honest, when I had a van with external tank it was fitted so you just knelt down and there it was just like a waste tap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted May 18, 2014 Author Share Posted May 18, 2014 JudgeMental - 2014-05-18 8:21 AM your right..I only looked at the schematic quickly and assumed what was the filler is in fact the BBQ point! Just see if you can get some sense out of eurotunnel, or like i said earlier stick with those awful ferries :-S The high pressure side holds a surprising amount of gas, 1-2 liters which is normally trapped in hose due to non return valve on bottles.... I guess you isolate from manifold when travelling? what you have seems a daft set up to be honest, when I had a van with external tank it was fitted so you just knelt down and there it was just like a waste tap I do agree that the set up as provided by Autosleepers is far from ideal but had they installed a remote valve at the tank outlet it would have been just about ideal. The tank is fitted across the van between the chassis rails which is about the only place it could go on a panel van and not be at risk of grounding. It's easier on a coachbuilt to site the tank longways behind the side panels and under the floor which makes access so much easier. It's very good to have the extra storage that not having a gas locker means but the Autogas tank system setup has been nothing but a pain in the bum with all manner of problems with leaks and refusals to fill! Prgress eh? Don'tcha just love it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowan Lee Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 Yes, Tracker, mine does have metal tubing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 We have a Warwick Duo and it has a metal pipe from the tank to the interior (originally AS fitted a high pressure rubber / plastic connection, but changed to stainless steel pipe some time ago). On asking the Eurotunnel people, they said that if the gas is turned off at the distribution side in the van (three taps) that was all they required. It was emphatically not required to crawl under the van and turn it off at the tank. Perhaps the answer changes depending on who you ask? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 spospe - 2014-05-18 12:48 PM Perhaps the answer changes depending on who you ask? probably.....sounds like it would be better to change high pressure side to steel rather than rubber pipe. But these hoses are strong, used in automotive (tractors, JCB's and the like) hydraulic systems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snail Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 Hi, the only isolation on supply to van is on the tank? don't you have to shut this valve when filling up with gas? we only have a gaslow system but were instructed to shut off valves on the supply to van regulator before filling? Can only assume this is to stop the high filling pressure possibly getting to the van regulator? not a criticism just interested snail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 Yes you are absolutely right you MUST turn off the gas before the regulator before filling, otherwise you stand a very high chance of wrecking the regulator, they are not designed for the pressure level the tank fills at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted May 18, 2014 Author Share Posted May 18, 2014 There are some interesting points arising in this discussion and my thanks to all for your input. However, I can't see it written anywhere pertinent to this specific set up that I should turn off the tank outlet isolating valve prior to refilling the tank and it certainly is not stated in the instruction manual for the van? This suggests that the regulator which is of the usual surface mounted caravan type is considered to be capable of withstanding the extra pressure applied during refilling? The link below is to the type of tank we have and the isolating valve is under the aluminium cover which is under the very centre of the van. http://www.autogasshop.co.uk/motorhome-lpg-tank-25-ltr-270-p.asp Accessing the valve means first unscrewing the black knob then removing the aluminium cover then turning the vale on or off and this simply is not practical every time we refill or use the tunnel. I had not thought about using a stainless steel pigtail as my understanding from Eurotunnel is that every gas container regardless of type or location HAS to be turned of at source - ie at the tank outlet - no exceptions? But from what others are saying it seems there are exceptions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 Hi Tracker, Our IH Tio has an under slung tank with copper tubing supply to the inside of the van - conveniently inside the under sink cupboard just inside the sliding door. There is a red on/off valve first then the four individual valves to various appliances. We have. Used eurotunnel every year with this arrangement and each time when asked if they can check the gas is off, I show them the red on/off valve and show them I am turning it to the off position. They have always been satisfied with this and I have never had to resort to turning off the valve situated on the tank itself. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted May 19, 2014 Share Posted May 19, 2014 It is possible to obtain electrically operated 'security' valves for fitting to the outlet of an LPG bottle/tank and the French LPG specialist Borel uses them on their "Homegaz" products. http://www.sbreparations.fr/produitsGPL5.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted May 19, 2014 Share Posted May 19, 2014 Its standard practice as far as I'm concerned and as Lenny and others have said, that you must insure bottles valve closed when refilling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted May 19, 2014 Author Share Posted May 19, 2014 JudgeMental - 2014-05-19 7:43 AM Its standard practice as far as I'm concerned and as Lenny and others have said, that you must ensure bottles valve closed when refilling. I can't speak for refillable bottles but as far as Autogas underslung tanks are concerned if it was deemed necessary to isolate don't you think that a more readily accessible isolating valve would have been installed and that there would be warning stickers and a mention at least in the otherwise clearly defined refilling procedure in the handbook? As neither Autosleepers or Autogas decree in any way that the tank should be isolated from the rest of the system when refilling I can only assume that it is not necessary on an Autogas underslung tank. None of which helps to resolve the Eurotunnel issue? Extract from Eurotunnel regulations regarding LPG "Note: Containers must be easy of access by our staff for any check. When travelling gas containers must be switched off and connection systems must be in good condition. Opening container tap or using domestic services are strictly forbidden until the unloading on the opposite terminal. In case of non compliance with these conditions Eurotunnel Le Shuttle reserves the right to cancel your journey." Seems pretty unambiguous to me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted May 19, 2014 Author Share Posted May 19, 2014 Derek Uzzell - 2014-05-19 7:30 AM It is possible to obtain electrically operated 'security' valves for fitting to the outlet of an LPG bottle/tank and the French LPG specialist Borel uses them on their "Homegaz" products. http://www.sbreparations.fr/produitsGPL5.html Thanks Derek - my French is not good but I couldn't see a remote operated high pressure isolating valve which is what I was looking for to replace the manually operated wheel type valve fitted between the tank outlet and the pigtail. The only remote valves I can find are the Truma low pressure solenoid valves which are fitted after the regulator and are not what Eurotunnel say they want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted May 19, 2014 Share Posted May 19, 2014 Tracker - 2014-05-19 8:34 AM Derek Uzzell - 2014-05-19 7:30 AM It is possible to obtain electrically operated 'security' valves for fitting to the outlet of an LPG bottle/tank and the French LPG specialist Borel uses them on their "Homegaz" products. http://www.sbreparations.fr/produitsGPL5.html Thanks Derek - my French is not good but I couldn't see a remote operated high pressure isolating valve which is what I was looking for to replace the manually operated wheel type valve fitted between the tank outlet and the pigtail. The only remote valves I can find are the Truma low pressure solenoid valves which are fitted after the regulator and are not what Eurotunnel say they want. This link http://camping-car-webzine.fr/fiche-gpl-borel.html relates to installing a Borel "Homegaz" refillable LPG bottle. The article includes a photo of the electrically-operated 'électrovanne' valve that attaches to the bottle's outlet. The gas-pigtail that leads to the regulator is then connected to the valve's outlet. There's also a photo of the switch that allows remote operation of the valve. My understanding is that the same arrangement was offered for Borel's horizontal LPG tanks. (It does need saying, perhaps, that - even if this type of remotely-operated On/Off valve were fitted to an LPG tank installed in a difficult-to-access position beneath a motorhome's floor - it would not provide the same level of 'proof' that the tank's supply had been turned off as a traditional handwheel valve.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted May 19, 2014 Share Posted May 19, 2014 Tracker - 2014-05-19 8:13 AM JudgeMental - 2014-05-19 7:43 AM Its standard practice as far as I'm concerned and as Lenny and others have said, that you must ensure bottles valve closed when refilling. I can't speak for refillable bottles but as far as Autogas underslung tanks are concerned if it was deemed necessary to isolate don't you think that a more readily accessible isolating valve would have been installed and that there would be warning stickers and a mention at least in the otherwise clearly defined refilling procedure in the handbook? As neither Autosleepers or Autogas decree in any way that the tank should be isolated from the rest of the system when refilling I can only assume that it is not necessary on an Autogas underslung tank. Don't say we haven't warned you Rich, as you must appreciate it is nothing to do with the tank it's how much pressure the regulator can stand. The main use of underslung tanks is for vehicle propulsion where a high pressure liquid take off regulator is used and it's not a problem with them but you are using a gas take off regulator that is not meant for the high pressure that incurs when filling. Don't worry Rich just carry ½ dozen spare regulators. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted May 19, 2014 Author Share Posted May 19, 2014 lennyhb - 2014-05-19 9:59 AM Don't say we haven't warned you Rich, as you must appreciate it is nothing to do with the tank it's how much pressure the regulator can stand. The main use of underslung tanks is for vehicle propulsion where a high pressure liquid take off regulator is used and it's not a problem with them but you are using a gas take off regulator that is not meant for the high pressure that incurs when filling. Don't worry Rich just carry ½ dozen spare regulators. :D I understand that your advice is given in good faith Lenny but if you could just show me where it is written that I must isolate an Autogas tank before filling I would be more inclined to think you are correct - but as it stands there is no evidence form the maker or installer to suggest that what you say is correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted May 19, 2014 Share Posted May 19, 2014 You prompted me to do a bit of research, the Truma regulator has a max input pressure of 16 bar (232 psi) the only reliable information I could find on pump filling pressure is that a vehicle tank needs a differential pressure of at least 125 psi to allow it to fill . So it looks like the Truma regulator will be OK left connected. As my bottles are easy to get at I will continue to turn them off when refilling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted May 19, 2014 Author Share Posted May 19, 2014 lennyhb - 2014-05-19 12:14 PM You prompted me to do a bit of research, the Truma regulator has a max input pressure of 16 bar (232 psi) the only reliable information I could find on pump filling pressure is that a vehicle tank needs a differential pressure of at least 125 psi to allow it to fill . So it looks like the Truma regulator will be OK left connected. As my bottles are easy to get at I will continue to turn them off when refilling. Thanks Lenny - I would turn the tank off if the valve was a remotely operated one or as easy as a gas locker to get at - so back to square one again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted May 19, 2014 Share Posted May 19, 2014 Just curious..but with these under-slung set ups, how far "into the system" is it usual to find the first, easily accessible, shut off valve? Presumably in many cases, it'd just be the manifold(s), somewhere at the back of a cupboard...? How feasible would it be to just install a manual "hand wheel" or lever valve, just under the sill of the van..?(..or even on-board, just before the reg'?)... :-S eg: http://www.gasproducts.co.uk/acatalog/Ball_Valves.html ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted May 19, 2014 Share Posted May 19, 2014 I wonder what your insurance company would think if they knew you travelled without LPG isolated...a disaster and its consequent claim would be interesting. Lets face it, your system neither fit for purpose, or fitted correctly. these underslung bottles should to be accessible and fitted near sill.... edit: Pepe's idea makes sense + maybe change to steel pipework Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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