Ducato X250 failed rear leaf springs

[Shaun]

My Adria Twin panel van conversion is four years old, and just failed its MOT because the leaf springs had sagged to the point that they were flat and the rear suspension was resting where it shouldn't, and simply wasn't doing its job. I'd never noticed anything untoward, so this came as a shock, especially as the Fiat dealer wanted £1,400 to replace both springs. It took a bit of negotiation to reduce the price to £1,100. I know I could have done it cheaper elsewhere, but needed the van pronto for a trip this weekend, so I just didn't have the appetite for the usual shopping around and hassle. I coughed up and took the old, flat springs away with me, in case they're needed to prove a point somewhere along the line.

 

Fiat themselves refused to contribute to the cost (and credit to the dealer for asking them), which I felt was harsh given that the van had only done 14,000 miles, and had spent most of its time on the driveway. Fiat's view was that the motorhome converter hadn't fitted the correct leaf springs - this being the heavy duty version. I put it to Fiat that they must supply Adria with thousands of base vehicles every year, and that Fiat would be aware of the required spec. Fiat said they couldn't be held responsible if the converter got it wrong, and I should contact them. Adria UK are crap at responding to even minor queries, so I can't imagine they'd be keen to cough up for a four year old van with a sagging rear suspension.

 

OK, so perhaps if I bellyache enough someone just might see that it seems unfair for the motorhome owner to get caught in the middle of a Fiat versus converter issue. Meanwhile, I thought I should mention that this could catch a few people out after a few years. New rear springs seems almost like a new clutch - an expensive consumable, but par for the course, given the constant weight sitting over the rear suspension.

 

I did a trawl of many forum posts on this issue and find that sagging leaf springs on motorhomes, is nothing new, and that converters do have a tendency to fit standard components (as opposed to heavy duty), for reasons such as better ride, and less likelihood of the rear end sitting much higher than the front. The latter doesn't go down well in terms of habitation comfort, and with firmer springs there's also a tendency for panel van side doors to slide shut due to the base vehicle platform being out of kilter.

 

I'm still sitting here with a big bill and I'm not sure whether I should be furious with someone, somewhere, or that I should accept that this is the kind of unexpected bill to expect as the motorhome base vehicle gets older.

 

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

 

Shaun

 

 

[Guest peter]

I would think that given your problem, a lot of people would fit air suspension at way less than half what you were asked to cough up. But like you say you were in a hurry to use the van.

[Rayjsj]

I agree, £1100 for rear springs is daylight robbery, you could have had Air suspension fitted for half that. And rear spring assistors from Grayston or Comptek (MAD) would have been even cheaper. These could have been fitted in less time than it took to remove the old springs and fit new ones.

4 years is no time at all, rear springs should last 10 years at least. looks like we shall be hearing about more failing. Ray

[George Collings]

Best to get your facts right before allocating blame.

 

Have you visited a weighbridge and taken individual axle weights. If the van is overladen the rubber buffers are just doing what they may be designed for and assisting the springs. The cure is easy but can lead to interesting discussions on what gets left behind.

 

There have been instances of MOT Stations failing vehicles because they believed the springs had run out of travel when in fact the bump stops were designed to be a progressive part of the suspension travel.

 

I suggest you ask your MOT station to contact VOSA for further guidance as to just what is acceptable on the X250.

 

In the event of a retest and pass negotiations over costs might be profitable.

 

 

 

[Keithl]

Is this why Nick (Euroserve) recently posted on another thread that he would strongly recommend anyone ordering a panel van conversion to order factory fit heavy duty rear suspension comprising twin leaf springs ilo single leaf?

From memory he said it was only a couple of hundred pounds or so as a factory fit order. Certainly cheaper than new springs when things go wrong.

 

Keith.

[Dave Newell]

The company that replaced your springs are taking the proverbial. I recently replaced both rear leaf springs on a 6 Tonne Merc Sprinter based Hymer and using genuine Merc springs it only cost about £400 including labour!

 

D.

[Shaun]

There's obviously a great deal of profit built into Fiat's leaf springs. I was quoted £400 + VAT for each one. I then told the dealer I could buy a pair for that from an after market company. The dealer's fitting time was also two hours per spring, hence an original quote of £1,400 for the pair. They would have taken that as well, had I not said I simply wasn't prepared to pay that much.

 

I should also mention that the heavy duty version the dealer has fitted is still a single leaf spring, not a double. They have agreed that should the ride or handling be adversely affected by them uprating the springs, they'll fit the standard ones which the van originally had, though I would then have to expect the same sinking of the back end a few years down the line.

 

Shaun

 

 

[George Collings]

Here are two pics to show the tall suspension buffers.The first was taken on the Fiat stand at the 2006 NEC show and shows the twin leaf spring.

 

The second also of a very new X250 minimalist PVC with a single rear leaf was taken at the 2006 Malvern show . I doubt it was overladen.

 

Note a lack of daylight between spring and buffer.

One of the occupants was a smoker there was a lot of cigarette ash outside it. No names no pack drill.

 

[George Collings]

no 2

[dwaviation]

Insane price to pay. I had both leaf springs replaced, airide fitted and upgraded my van to 3200kg through SVtech for that sort of money...

 

My van had flat springs from new and were just about resting on the bump stop (just like the second picture) - everytime we went over a speed bump the springs would invert and fire us into the air with a huge crash, cupboards would open, the fridge would empty all over the floor etc, etc what a joke for a new van. Our new single springs are MUCH more tensile that the old ones which unfortunately raises the back end by a few inches away from level (first picture) but the ride is superb.

 

My leaf spring had actually cracked as it wrapped around the top of the rear hangar, quite hard to spot (it had just passed its first MOT) maybe worth a look?

[Guest JudgeMental]

Just had a look under my new Adria picked up last week and there is a slight curve in the single leaf....... :-S

[pepe63xnotuse]

Shaun.

 

Personally I would "bellyache" at Adria until I was blue in the face...

 

http://www.adria-mobil.com/default.cfm?j=En&t=We&d=We&Kat=0301010215

 

Our previous 3tonne Peugeot x250 Compass coachbulit hardly compressed the rubbers at all(..nothing compared to that second photo)and that had a huge tail overhang..:-S

 

..we are all assuming that you weren't running around grossly overloaded though.. ;-)

 

(..you don''t cart paving slabs for a living,do you? :-) )

[euroserv]

Good morning folks,

 

Our vans are Maxi type and therefore come with upgraded springs from the standard. The light vans (11,15,17L) have one spring, the Heavy (17H, 20H) have another both single leaf. The optional heavy duty spring is only available to factory order on the Heavy vans. The shock absorbers and bump stops are also different depending on the types of springs fitted. The hangers, eye bushes and everything else appear to be the same so all are interchangeable.

 

I have just been looking at the parts disc and there is something peculiar going on; The light springs and heavy springs are about £360 each but the twin leaf items are £310 each! With the different shockers coming in at about £65 each I would say that anyone thinking about changing from light to heavy would be as well to swap to twin leaf and change the shocks too for not much more money. The load compensating valve will need to be reset to the new ride height but I would not bother changing the bump stops because you are never going to get near them again anyway!

 

We encountered flat and even bent springs on earlier vans at MOT time and most passed as long as they sat level. If you have some space bettween one stop and not the other you will normally fail. The X250's have so far dealt with the extreme punishment they get very well; I have seen a couple of slightly flattened sperings and one broken but none have failed the test. Remember these are all on the heavy springs anyway.

 

We order the heavy duty twin springs on our extra long vans which is a £76.13 plus vat option (before discount) and seems like a bit of a bargain. I suggest that anyone ordering a large coachbuilt or panel van conversion should tick that box.

 

Nick

[pepe63xnotuse]

euroserv - 2011-04-22 11:02 AM

 

We order the heavy duty twin springs on our extra long vans which is a £76.13 plus vat option (before discount) and seems like a bit of a bargain. I suggest that anyone ordering a large coachbuilt or panel van conversion should tick that box.

 

Nick

That does indeed seem like the box to tick!

 

(..however as ,I expect most "first timers" wouldn't be aware of an issue,they'll more likey be busy checking out the "Extra tassles on the scatter cushions" option... *-) ) ;-)

[dwaviation]

Thanks Nick - I'm wondering wether I had single heavy duty springs fitted to my MWB X/250 given the increase in ride height at the back - but as I said the ride is superb....

[Shaun]

When I first got the van I took it to a weighbridge and worked out the available payload. I daresay on occasion, at the front or middle of the van, we may well have reached the limit. However, the back has had a more consistent weight over the axle, by way of the motorhome fittings - mainly double bed and cabinets. When we travel, there's the usual luggage under the bed, and the wife and I aren't the biggest people in the world. I suspect that Adria would say it's been overloaded at the rear, but in our time with it, the van has been used entirely in keeping with its intended purpose.

 

However, it could be argued by Adria and Fiat that as I bought the van secondhand, I have no idea what weight the previous owners carried for the original 8,000 out of the current 14,000 miles.

 

In some respects I'm prepared to concede that a flattening of springs is the price to pay if Adria, when designing these vans, duly tested the ride, handling and braking, and concluded that the lighter springs were the best all-round compromise. They do sell thousands of these conversions all over Europe, so you'd think they'd have done their homework, so as to not risk a comeback from customers with premature sagging of springs. Whilst I'm duly listening here to advice as to the fitting of really beefed-up springs from new, surely this option has knock-on implications for the likes of ride, brakes and handling. If heavier springs were the obvious answer, I'd have thought Adria (and their ilk) would fit them as standard, in what is a maximum 3,300k load vehicle.

 

What I suppose I'm really annoyed about is what looks like blatant profiteering from Fiat. Are its leaf springs made of some superior material to that of an after market supplier? How do they justify charging more than double? Would they argue their springs will have a longer service life, due to their superior manufacture? Even with a 5% discount, each spring cost me £391.73. That's £470.08 each including VAT. I held the old ones they'd taken off the van. They look like a perfunctory piece of drop-forged, bent metal with a bush holding at either end.

 

I would also raise the question that as a commercial dealership which also does MOTs, are they more inclined to fail a vehicle which is borderline, then capitalise on the necessary repairwork? I guess that's a rhetorical question, as I've often thought there was a conflict of interests when a garage does both MOTs and repairs. My Mercedes garage doesn't do MOTs and has to take the car elsewhere, so on this basis I trust them to do only what's necessary, as it's an independent inspection of the car for MOT purposes.

 

Shaun

 

 

[euroserv]

Shaun,

 

As i pointed out in another thread where this subject came up; the ride unladen in the standard maxi van is just fine (firm and well controlled but not harsh), so I cannot see that anyone would be upset about that but the twin leaf springs are quite bouncy when unladen, lovely when there is a half ton or so in the back; therefore because campers are always at least partially loaded, if not close to the limit much of the time I think these springs are suitable for every camper application and really ought to be standard issue. Especially at that price!

 

Nick

[Shaun]

I see, Nick. Well that really does beg the question why it's not done as standard.

 

Hello, Mr or Mrs Adria. Care to comment?

 

Shaun

[colin]

Shaun - 2011-04-22 12:38 PM

 

When I first got the van I took it to a weighbridge and worked out the available payload. I daresay on occasion, at the front or middle of the van, we may well have reached the limit. However, the back has had a more consistent weight over the axle, by way of the motorhome fittings - mainly double bed and cabinets. When we travel, there's the usual luggage under the bed, and the wife and I aren't the biggest people in the world. I suspect that Adria would say it's been overloaded at the rear, but in our time with it, the van has been used entirely in keeping with its intended purpose.

 

However, it could be argued by Adria and Fiat that as I bought the van secondhand, I have no idea what weight the previous owners carried for the original 8,000 out of the current 14,000 miles.

 

In some respects I'm prepared to concede that a flattening of springs is the price to pay if Adria, when designing these vans, duly tested the ride, handling and braking, and concluded that the lighter springs were the best all-round compromise. They do sell thousands of these conversions all over Europe, so you'd think they'd have done their homework, so as to not risk a comeback from customers with premature sagging of springs. Whilst I'm duly listening here to advice as to the fitting of really beefed-up springs from new, surely this option has knock-on implications for the likes of ride, brakes and handling. If heavier springs were the obvious answer, I'd have thought Adria (and their ilk) would fit them as standard, in what is a maximum 3,300k load vehicle.

 

 

A couple of points Shaun.

As the van is three plus years old and you have noted that with just yourself and wife it is close to max on front axle, Im guessing it is the version with front water tanks? If so these are renowned for overloading front axle in 3.3t version, what does that tell you about Adria "doing their homework"?

From the info given by James, the latest version has the water and waste tanks at rear to relieve some of the load on front axle, this of cause will increase load at rear, so I doubt Aria could accuse you of overloading rear on yours.

We have a Maxi L4, with no load in rear it has at best 1" clearance from spring assiters, and it has less than 500 miles on the clock, by the time of first MOT I would expect it to have 20k+, bet the spring touchs then.

[747]

The usual advice is to replace like with like, ie manufacturers original parts.

 

Over the past 10 years, I and others I know have suffered broken front and rear spring on new cars. 3 on my Renault in a very short space of time.

 

However, the replacements have been aftermarket springs and not one has failed since. If this is applicable to vans and motorhomes then I would steer clear of Fiat replacement parts. Unless as Nick says, you uprate them.

[Shaun]

Just to add a bit to the story, it went something like this: The dealership wanted authorisation to carry out repairs, as the van had failed its MOT due to a broken rear spring. The cost to replace would be nearly £700. I nearly wept, but because we needed the van on the road very soon, I said to just do it.

 

The next morning, I received a call from the dealership to say they'd actually got it wrong and that both springs had broken. It was all those pot holes in the UK, apparently. At this juncture I said I wanted to take a look, because the cost had now doubled, and there was a bill for £1,400 in the offing.

 

A call quickly came back to say that the springs hadn't actually broken, but they were totally flat and the suspension was resting..... I forget where, but it was far too low. The dealership took the view that the springs were unsuitable for a motorhome load. Regrettably, they also put this view to Fiat UK, which meant the latter wouldn't contribute to the premature failure, as the van was well out of warranty and the converter appeared to have underspecified the load for the springs they'd fitted.

 

Taking a step back and looking at this again, given half a chance, the Fiat dealership would have replaced the springs on the basis that they'd told me both of them had broken, when in fact they'd simply gone flat, so the back end of the van was bottoming out. There's a big difference between a broken suspension and a tired suspension, and I'm suspicious of what went on here. It's too late now and with hindsight I'd have done things differently. However, it might serve as a warning to others whose X250s are now a few years old, so they could be facing the same ridiculous bill if they go the Fiat replacement route.

 

Shaun

 

 

[Sundowner]

When I weighed our Adria Twin, 3300kgs. gross weight, (since replaced with an Adria Compact), the problem was an overloaded front axle. There was still 300kgs. spare capacity on the rear axle,so I'm surprised that you have suffered a rear spring failure. I'd have thought it was virtualy impossible to overload the rear on this particular model without being grossly overweight.

[Guest JudgeMental]

My new adria purchased last week, has the fresh water in back, the waste at back underneath. the Truma gas heater is also at the back...only weight at front under sofa is original leisure battery and a second one fitted as an extra...I guess the fuel tank must be under the floor in this area as well

[pepe63xnotuse]

Bit of a daft question...but when ordering a new M/h,are ALL of the base vehicle options available to you?.. :-S

 

Off topic,I know...

 

 

[grahamw]

euroserv - 2011-04-22 12:47 PM

I think these springs are suitable for every camper application and really ought to be standard issue. Especially at that price!

Nick

 

I couldn't agree more. When researching our PVC purchase a year ago I was very surprised at the comments from converters (UK and European) about the need for twin leaf springs. Several said that they were unecessary on a lightly loaded vehicle. As you can imagine I challenged the validity of such comments.

 

Finally arrived at Vantage Motorhomes who simply said they only build the vehicle on twin leaf springs. It's the attention to this sort of detail that's important.

 

Graham