Elecsol/Enduroline Leisure Batteries

[Barney123]

My existing Elecsol batteries are coming to the end of their 4 year guarantee and I know they are no longer available, i also know all about the past problems regarding dealing with them, but that's water under the bridge now.

I understand Tanya Batteries now offer a direct replacement on the ENDUROLINE range for the Elecsol, and I am seeking views on the pros and cons of this replacement.

Thank you

.

[Derek Uzzell]

I believe you’ll find that the “replacement” statement by Tayna merely means that the four Enduroline EXV batteries mentioned have similar physical dimensions to the four Elecsol batteries pictured on this webpage

 

https://www.tayna.co.uk/brands/elecsol/

 

It does not mean that the technology and/or performance of the Enduroline EXV batteries are the same as that of the Elecsol equivalents.

 

There’s a longish 2015 discussion about Enduroline ‘deep cycle’ batteries here:

 

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?425034-Battery-experts-Enduroline-Batteries&s=1ba31368ca87a570b3d813b72a455525

 

There will be plenty of ‘leisure’ batteries with similar dimensions to the Elecsol/Enduroline ones. For example a ‘dual-purpose’ Varta LFD90 is physically the same size as an Enduroline EXV110, but the Varta product’s technology is superior (and it’s cheaper).

[Keithl]

And I would suggest having a read of Allan's excellent page on Battery Technology...

 

http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/battery-technology.php

 

Keith.

[Barney123]

Hi Derek

Thanks for your input, however you say

 

""There will be plenty of ‘leisure’ batteries with similar dimensions to the Elecsol/Enduroline ones. For example a ‘dual-purpose’ Varta LFD90 is physically the same size as an Enduroline EXV110, but the Varta product’s technology is superior (and it’s cheaper).""

 

The "dual-purpose" Varta LFD90 is shown as £181.42 on Tanya site, so it not cheaper than the £131.35 for the EXV110 .

Or am I missing something ?

 

[Keithl]

Barney123 - 2018-04-24 7:23 PM

 

Hi Derek

Thanks for your input, however you say

 

""There will be plenty of ‘leisure’ batteries with similar dimensions to the Elecsol/Enduroline ones. For example a ‘dual-purpose’ Varta LFD90 is physically the same size as an Enduroline EXV110, but the Varta product’s technology is superior (and it’s cheaper).""

 

The "dual-purpose" Varta LFD90 is shown as £181.42 on Tanya site, so it not cheaper than the £131.35 for the EXV110 .

Or am I missing something ?

 

I'm not sure where you're looking Barney but it comes up as £94.95 plus £9.18 delivery for me.

 

https://www.tayna.co.uk/leisure-batteries/varta/lfd90/

 

Keith.

 

PS And it is Tayna and not Tanya!

 

Edit to add: You appear to have been looking at the LA95 AGM Leisure battery, that is not the one being recommended!

 

https://www.tayna.co.uk/leisure-batteries/varta/la95/

[Barney123]

Hi Keith,

What has thrown me was Derek said it was a Dual Purpose battery and that is shown at £181.42, I agree the Professional DC one is £94.95. I though I was getting a bargain if the AGM one was cheaper.

Yes sorry my mistake with Tayna

What do I do, the Enduroline has a 4 year guarantee and what has the Varta ?

 

 

[Keithl]

Barney,

 

I would not go on guarantees! I would go on advice from the learned friends on this forum!

 

I have been using an LFD90 for over 6 years now and it is still going strong, admittedly I haven't done a capacity test but it still comfortably runs lights and water pump for a long weekend away and I only give it a top up charge once a month or so during the winter.

 

Keith.

 

PS The LFD90 is also labelled as Dual Purpose if you zoom in on the picture of the actual battery on Tayna's website!

[Keithl]

Barney123 - 2018-04-24 7:52 PM

 

What do I do, the Enduroline has a 4 year guarantee and what has the Varta ?

 

 

Barney,

 

Battery Megastore says the LFD90 has a 4 year warranty...

 

https://www.batterymegastore.co.uk/varta-lfd90.html

[Keithl]

OK, and sorry for multiple posts, but another major decision point:

 

The Varta LFD90 is a true maintenance free battery, you will NEVER need to top it up!

 

What is the Enduroline, I can see no mention of low maintenance or any other such claim? You will almost certainly have to check and probably top up every month!

 

Keith.

 

I would go for the Varta again without hesitation.

 

Keith.

[Barney123]

Hi Keith,

Now you have me going in the correct direction, did'nt see that 4 years on the Varta at Batterymegastore.

I will mention your name and say i will have the further discount as you wont need replacements as yet.

Thanks

 

 

[gordonaldson]

Now there's a thing. Got my present day Motorhome a 2002 Kontiki last year and was surprised on what it carried. Lecy panel on roof was one and charging two Leisure batties it did well the rest of the year. But all things stopped near end of year, no charge from roof panel, was doing 13.5 volts through our crap summer.

What did I find, empty battery cells, one battery on 2v which was scrap. Other battery on 9v (which had become disconnected) but has recharged with a 20amp charger.

What have I learn here: keep check on the water in the batteries as months go by.

So is this by overcharging, or none use of the battery power available...

[Derek Uzzell]

Keithl - 2018-04-24 8:31 PM

 

OK, and sorry for multiple posts, but another major decision point:

 

The Varta LFD90 is a true maintenance free battery, you will NEVER need to top it up!

 

What is the Enduroline, I can see no mention of low maintenance or any other such claim? You will almost certainly have to check and probably top up every month!

 

Keith.

 

I would go for the Varta again without hesitation.

 

Keith.

 

Images of the four Enduroline EXV batteries mentioned as replacements on the Tayna webpage suggest that the EXV125 can be ‘maintained’ by topping up the electrolyte-level if this proves necessary, whereas the EXV100, EXV110 and EXV220 are (like the Varta LDV range) all sealed so cannot be maintained.

 

If a ‘maintainable’ battery’s electrolyte-level starts to fall, its electrolyte can be (and should be) topped up, but that won’t be practicable with a sealed battery. Expert advice is that the technology Varta employ means that in normal use the electrolyte-level of LFD batteries will never fall.

[Tracker]

Over the years I have found Elecsol batteries not very good and Enduroline from Tayna very good, but given the choice now I too would opt for a Varta or Bosch.

 

Any warranty is only as good as the retailer and if that supplier is a long way away that makes any warranty claim a lot more complicated, and easier to avoid, than a local supplier where you can take the battery back in person and smile while you complain!

[aandncaravan]

Atlasbx manufacture a whole range of batteries, that end up with all manner of labels on them from Hankook to Numax.

The XV range of batteries are not what the retailers are claiming, They are not suitable for heavy Motorhome use, and that information comes from the battery manufacturer.

 

The Atlasbx XV range battery is described by the manufacturer as a shallow discharge Starter battery that does not have deep cycling capability. If you discharge them to 50% DOD you are likely to get only a handful of charge/discharge cycles. We would guess about 10 cycles at 50% DOD.

 

If you look at the attached chart you will see that the XV range Plate Paste Active Material is listed as Starter Battery optimised.

You will note that the heavy duty XDC range uses 'high density Active Material' optimised for Deep discharges but this isn't used by the XV.

 

If you look at the second chart, it lists the suitability of the battery ranges to a particular function.

You will note the XDC range gets 3 stars for deep cycling, but the XV range does not even merit a single star.

When it comes to long term float charging, the XV range again doesn't have even a single star. It won't like long term float/trickle charging on Solar or EHU. Probably have a short life if left connected long term to Solar/230v, but obviously this will depend on the charging systems.

The XDC gets 3 stars so more tolerant on long term EHU/Solar charging, but still not the best.

 

 

If you look at the third chart, showing the slightly more 'heavy duty' DC range, you will see that even these will deliver just 60 cycles when discharged to 50% DOD.

We found almost all of the budget batteries to be similar style construction.

 

So according to the manufacturers, the XV ranges are not good Motorhome batteries, so don't be taken in by the retailers claiming otherwise.

 

The Enduroline/Powerline and similar, in our opinion, should be avoided unless your battery use is light duty, for example mostly on EHU and you only ever lightly discharge the battery.

[Tracker]

Allan, sorry to ask, but I surely can't be the only one to wonder?

 

How much discharge does there need to be for the subsequent recharge to count as a cycle?

 

Are we able to define a 'cycle' please, or is that too hidden from view by misleading marketing blurb?

 

Is a cycle, for example, one night's off site use followed by a top up recharge the following day either by solar panel or engine alternator?

 

Or stored at home with no use other than self discharge or use by the van's on board electronics continually discharging and with a solar panel continuously charging

 

How about on site where the EHU generally provides a continuous top up recharge, how do 'they' define a 'cycle' in order to try and estimate battery life?

 

Thanks!

 

 

[aandncaravan]

Tracker - 2018-04-25 5:47 PM

Allan, sorry to ask, but I surely can't be the only one to wonder?

 

How much discharge does there need to be for the subsequent recharge to count as a cycle?

 

Are we able to define a 'cycle' please, or is that too hidden from view by misleading marketing blurb?

 

Is a cycle, for example, one night's off site use followed by a top up recharge the following day either by solar panel or engine alternator?

 

Or stored at home with no use other than self discharge or use by the van's on board electronics continually discharging and with a solar panel continuously charging

 

How about on site where the EHU generally provides a continuous top up recharge, how do 'they' define a 'cycle' in order to try and estimate battery life?

 

 

 

A Charge/discharge cycle is any use where power is taken from the battery and then put back by a charger of some sort, alternator, mains charger or Solar regulator.

 

 

"Are we able to define a 'cycle' please, or is that too hidden from view by misleading marketing blurb?"

 

 

The brief industry definition of a cycle, is generally, one where the battery is discharged to 50% DOD, but see the note at the bottom for greater detail.

 

"Is a cycle, for example, one night's off site use followed by a top up recharge the following day either by solar panel or engine alternator?"

 

Yes.

 

"Or stored at home with no use other than self discharge or use by the van's on board electronics continually discharging and with a solar panel continuously charging".

 

Yes, however most healthy systems won't discharge much when unused overnight so only the tinyest amount of power is taken out and put back.

An Exide ES900 Gel battery has around 300 cycles at 80% DOD but about 2,000 + at 10% DOD. Which gives you an idea of how Deep cycling affects battery life.

 

 

In the last example of using EHU on site, the battery won't do any work. The charger/power supply will meet the demand directly, just as a Car Starter battery doesn't supply the power for the Wipers when the engine is running. Because the Power Supply/Charger is higher voltage than a 12v battery, it's greater potential difference, or electrical 'pressure',will supply the power.

 

 

Coming back to a cycle, the full industry definition of a 'Cycle' usually quotes the DOD to 50%. However, each time the battery is used it's capacity drops. The industry declare a battery 'exhausted' when it is no longer able to deliver 80% of the batteries stated capacity. At this point a 100Ah battery may hold it's charge but only deliver 30Ah when discharged down to 50% of it's original 100Ah.

It may work perfectly well, just have 30Ah to give up.

Obviously when the same battery degrades further and drops to only 60% capacity, then there is only 10Ah available to be drawn off till you hit the 50% DOD recommended 'limit'. If you draw more than 10Ah then you will be taking the battery down below 50% DOD.

Taking 30Ah out of a battery already down to 60% capacity results in the battery dropping to 70% DOD with life shortening results.

 

 

So when a battery is new, a cycle should be, using the 100Ah example above, one which delivers at least 30 - 50% capacity (30 - 50Ah) before the battery reaches End Of Life.

The problem we have is that some manufacturers quote a cycle, even if it surrenders a paltry 10Ah, when clearly it is not a useful cycle.

 

So one retailers quoted cycle figure may be unrealistic.

 

Or should that be complete lies?.

The attached graph shows Capacity versus Cycles.

You will note that this brand new, fully charged battery took a few charge/discharge cycles to reach 100%, it was only 85% 'full' when new.

It peaked at about 60 cycles and then slowly lost capacity. It dropped below 80% capacity at around 170 cycles so that is it's maximum cycle life, yet the graph continues to count cycles to 50% capacity (don't get confused with DOD) and '220 cycles'.

 

Yet this graph was part of a document sent to the NCC to 'Verify' that the battery really did have the claimed 220 cycles. The NCC accepted it and the battery can be found in their charts with a 220 cycle life, when the reality is a lot less.

 

No independent test, just a document that I could have knocked up on my computer was all that was necessary for the NCC to 'Verify' the batteries technical spec for their 'Verified battery scheme'.

 

 

[Tracker]

Thanks Allan, I appreciate your thorough answer as ever, even if it does baffle me a bit, as ever.

 

So a solar panel which is fitted to extend battery useability and theoretical life by keeping it fully charged can be as much instrumental in killing it as it is in saving it ?

 

I'm amazed any manufacturer gives any guarantee let alone a 4 year one on a leisure battery - that said giving a guarantee and honouring it are not always one and the same !

 

 

[Ocsid]

Tracker - 2018-04-25 8:52 PM

 

So a solar panel which is fitted to extend battery useability and theoretical life by keeping it fully charged can be as much instrumental in killing it as it is in saving it ?

 

 

IMO the answer to that in part lies with the sophistication of the solar charger [so probably its price?]

Mine a Morningstar Duo actually does a complete current disconnect once the battery is fully charged, it also employs a "smart" charging routine.

 

More generally, the very minor cycling on say a stowed battery to correct for natural losses represents a miniscule DoD %, and as seen for Allans Exide G90 example when dealing with such small DoDs the cycle life goes exponential.

 

Buy a very good solar controller and leave it working would be my advice, along with buying a very good battery in the first place.

[aandncaravan]

Tracker - 2018-04-25 8:52 PM

 

Thanks Allan, I appreciate your thorough answer as ever, even if it does baffle me a bit, as ever.

 

So a solar panel which is fitted to extend battery useability and theoretical life by keeping it fully charged can be as much instrumental in killing it as it is in saving it ?

 

I'm amazed any manufacturer gives any guarantee let alone a 4 year one on a leisure battery - that said giving a guarantee and honouring it are not always one and the same !

 

 

 

Tracker, If you look at the detail in most battery manufacturers warranty they usually only cover manufacturing defects. All batteries deteriorate with use, from Lead to Zinc, that is just the chemistry of how batteries work, so you can't guarantee a battery that has been used will be as good in 12 months as it was new, because that is a physical impossibility.

 

 

As to permanent Solar charging of batteries causing damage, the Solar regulator is key. But the battery technology is also important, as shown by the charts above where the Atlasbx XV range doesn't merit a single star, and even the heavier duty DC only gets 1 star, when it comes to coping with permanent float/trickle charging.

Lithium batteries really don't like permanent Float/trickle charging on Motorhome charger systems, even at low voltages.

Starter batteries are not designed to be permanently float/trickle charged, so it isn't just the habitation batteries at risk.

 

It has always baffled me the way we treat batteries by permanent charging.

 

'Disconnecting' the charger, mains or Solar, from the battery when the battery doesn't need charging is surely the optimum solution, exactly as Banner, Yuasa, etc state on their web sites.

 

 

The Morningstar Duo isn't one of our favourites as the ones we have seen have to be manually configured to split the current between the two batteries. The best do it dynamically.

It is also only PWM, not the more efficient MPPT.

The float voltage is also a high 13.7v when the best use a lower 13.4v or less..

I am not a fan of it throwing 15v into the battery every 28 days either.

 

I didn't know it isolated itself from the battery when the battery was full, is that a new feature? The ones we have seen permanently float the battery at 13.7v, even when the battery is fully charged.

 

We would say the Votronic Solar Charger is not only superior, but cheaper, see our Solar Power pages here : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/solar-power.php