Madcow Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 Am I mistaken, but I seem to remember quite a few years ago seeing a list of advisors in MMM for different countries to help you with planning trips etc. I had a particularly helpful one for Netherlands who sent me maps and answered any questions I had. Looking at the digital versions we have now there seems no such list. Reason for asking is that we planned a trip via Eurotunnel in 2020 and booked a site in Lake Garda but before I could plan a route lockdown 1 came into force and the trip was cancelled. We managed to get the some money back off the site but the Eurotunnel is non-refundable and has been pushed out once again from last year to this. Each time I had to pay extra as the fare had gone up in the meantime. My other half and I are both 69 and during the uncertain times of lockdowns and all the Brexit changes I seem to have lost confidence and now need to look into paperwork I need because of Brexit plus whatever, vignettes etc, I need to get to Lake Garda. My husband is still working as a watchmaker and has been to Switzerland on business trips but would like to go and see the scenery as we are not really city types and would like to go via Switzerland on the easiest route possible. We plan to go for 3 weeks and it is all very well looking on maps but I don't know if the route is suitable for 7.5m motorhome plus tow car. I used to manage sweaty palm moments easily but don't handle them so well now and the lack of motorhome trips over the last couple of years hasn't helped my husband's confidence either. We have done quite a few UK trips when we were allowed but coupled with a foreign language, new restrictions and dodgy roads is a different matter. Any assistance anyone can give would be so very much appreciated. Thanks in advance. Angela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 Welcome to the Out&AboutLive forums, Angela. You are right that MMM Magazine used to include a list of volunteer travel advisors, but I think the listing was not published after 2012. ViaMichelin suggests three Calais-to-Lake Garda routes with the shortest (762 miles with 649 miles on motorways) traversing Switzerland. That SHOULD be the 'easiest' route for a motorhome towing a car, but I've no personal experience of driving it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtravel Posted January 29, 2022 Share Posted January 29, 2022 I am Italian and when I come to the United Kingdom I usually pass through Switzerland (Gotthard Tunnel). I usually stay on Route 1 among those suggested by Derek. With a small difference, at Metz, instead of going towards Nancy after which you will have to overcome the Vosges I drive towards Saverne/Strasbourg. Approximately 130km of comfortable national road in the countryside. From Strasbourg to Basel (Switzerland) the motorway is free. In Switzerland tolls depends on the weight of the motorhome: Under the 3.5ton vignette. Valid until Jan31 of the followiing year it can be purchased at at border customs office (around £ 30). In your case you will have to buy two, one also for the trailer. Above 3.5 tons you will have to stop at customs and buy a certain number of allowances in the country. I think the minimum is twelve, however they are cheap (less than the vignette). In Italy motorways are toll roads, you will find toll gates, 90% of them are now unmanned. Payment by major credt cards. Beware if the car is towed by an "A frame". I have big doubts that this is legal and accepted in all the countries you will pass through. I'm not sure but I think it's completely illegal in Italy. Then maybe no one controls you but know it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madcow Posted January 29, 2022 Author Share Posted January 29, 2022 Thank you Derek. I looked at ViaMichelin but it didnt seem to give an option for motorhomes. It just listed hatchback, luxury etc. I will put this in again and have a look at the route. We do find motorways boring and my husband prefers more scenic, plus you see more of the country other than a means to just getting there. Thank you for your time. Regards Angela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madcow Posted January 29, 2022 Author Share Posted January 29, 2022 Thank you for so much useful information mtravel. I am feeling a bit more confident now with your knowledge of the route and the requirements. Regards Angela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtravel Posted January 29, 2022 Share Posted January 29, 2022 I forgot to mention that if you choose the direction Lille, Namur (B) and Luxembourg, the motorway from Calais to Metz is free. Before and immediately after Luxembourg city two services with fuel with perhaps the lowest prices in Europe. And if you want, alcohol and tobacco too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madcow Posted January 29, 2022 Author Share Posted January 29, 2022 Thanks - it just seems to be getting better and better! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 29, 2022 Share Posted January 29, 2022 Much depends on your preferences as to road types and stopping places, so this is the "generic" version of a route we have used numerous times for Northern Italy (the last time in 2019). I've adapted the southern part to end at Peschiera del Garda, for want of a more precise destination. Our preference is to avoid toll roads, especially in France where they are expensive, so this route avoids these and Switzerland with its Vignette, by going a bit further east through Austria.. From Calais NE to Dunkirk and then SE via Lille, Charleroi, Namur, Luxembourg, Saarlouis, Karlsruhe, Ulm, Memmingen, and Kempten, to the Grenztunnel, just west of Fussen. This section is all dual carriageway or toll free autoroute/autobahn. If using a sat-nav set to avoid toll roads. Entering Austria from the Grenztunnel, follow Reutte, and Lahn, over the Fern Pass to Nassereith. Easy gradients on good two way roads. From Nassereith head for Imst. From Imst, the sat-nav should guide you along the B189/B171 parallel to the (toll) A12 past Mils and Zams to Landeck (with all the roadside signs encouraging you onto to the A12! :-)). From Landeck you should be guided up the L76/B180 Reschenpass (a pussycat!) past Prutz, Pfunds, and Nauders to the Italian border just above Curon Venesta. All good two lane road. From the border take the SS40/SS38 down the Adige Valley past Malles Venosta, Silandro, and Laces to Merano. Still on good two way road. From Merano take the SS38 "Mebo" south for Bolzano. Mostly a good dual carriageway. From Bolzano take the SS12 south past Ora/Auer, Trento and Rovereto to Peschiera or wherever else you prefer. Again, this is on good two way road. Total distance, as described, about 820 miles: tolls, nil! :-) But, now you've got that far, you're only 70 miles from an excellent campsite at Oriago (Camping Serenissima), which benefits from a regular, reliable, frequent, bus-service to the heart of Venice! What's to lose? :-D As you say, your van is quite large, and you have a tow car. You have not said how you tow this. However, if it is on an A frame, do check very carefully the legality of this in all the countries you will pass through. I know they are illegal in France, although it seems the French police do not always enforce this law. The other countries, I don't know. So, you are trading on luck if using an A frame. If on a trailer, then there should be no problems in any of the countries. You will, of course, require a large pitch, and may find this difficult for overnight stays. The approaches to some sites can be tight, as can the manoeuvering space on sites. You may be charged additional fees for the car+trailer. The only place on that route that may be a bit "tight", is Landeck. I've "eyeballed" the route through Landeck on Google Streets and can't see any weight restrictions, and it is signposted as a main route to Italy, is a bus route, and I've never seen any restriction, so I don't think it will be a problem. Otherwise, it is a easy drive, on good roads, with some spectacular scenery on both sides of the trans Alpine section. I can name a few good campsites that we have used a number of times near the route, but a longish van plus car may prove a challenge on some. Simply, I can't comment as I've no experience on that issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madcow Posted January 29, 2022 Author Share Posted January 29, 2022 Thank you Brian for such a detailed and informative post. I will certainly look into your route via Austria. Yes we have A frame and I read all the posts of whether it is advisable or not. There are very mixed experiences. Some say they are illegal in France if you live there but they tend to leave the tourists alone. I don't know. I am concerned over Switzerland though as I have yet to hear anyone's experiences. If I remain undecided perhaps may try on return journey so not to start off the trip on the wrong foot. Unfortunately we don't have anywhere at home to store a trailer. We have however opted for the full automatic braking A frame which we have been pleased with here in the UK. We toured Scotland last year and got quite good at manoeuvring and un hooking in tight spots. Once again thank you for the time and effort you have given in helping us out, it is very much appreciated. Kind regards Angela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witzend Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 Madcow - 2022-01-29 7:47 PM Yes we have A frame and I read all the posts of whether it is advisable or not. Some say they are illegal in France if you live there but they tend to leave the tourists alone. Unfortunately we don't have anywhere at home to store a trailer. We have however opted for the full automatic braking A frame which we have been pleased with here in the UK. We toured Scotland last year and got quite good at manoeuvring and un hooking in tight spots. I met a couple in Roscoff we had over nighted beside them at the port while waiting for the ferry home they where hitching up to board the ferry they had been stopped with their A frame and they where only allowed to proceed after unhitching and leaving as 2 separate vehicles. How good it is or how well you can operate it won't help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 Madcow - 2022-01-29 7:47 PM ...Yes we have A frame and I read all the posts of whether it is advisable or not. There are very mixed experiences. Some say they are illegal in France if you live there but they tend to leave the tourists alone... Angela This late-2020 forum thread discussed A-frame towing in France https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/-A-frames-in-France/56218/ There's no doubt that the practice conflicts with French motoring law, and there's no credible argument that 'foreign' A-framers can play a Get-Out-Of-Jail card. This 2015 forum thread began with an enquiry by Neal Farrow (owner of a large American RV) asking about the reaction of Swiss or Italian motorway police to A-frame towing. https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/A-frames-in-Switzerland-Italy/38748/ Mtravel (who lives in Italy) said earlier "I'm not sure but I think it's completely illegal in Italy" and that's been my understanding too. I don't KNOW whether A-frame towing is forbidden in Switzerland, but as the surrounding countries (France, Germany, Italy) have regulations that conflict with A-frame towing, it seems logical that Switzerland would have similar motoring laws. The RAC's guidance on driving in Switzerland includes the following advice Driving a camper van and towing a caravan in Switzerland Camper vans and cars with caravans are not allowed to exceed 18.75 metres in length, 4 metres in height and 2.55 metres in width. Loads mustn’t overhang laterally or exceed 10 tonnes at a single axle. Please note: The Department for Transport advises that A-frames are not legal for use by UK campers and caravanners abroad. In practice, this could mean towing your car while it’s fixed to a trailer.* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madcow Posted January 30, 2022 Author Share Posted January 30, 2022 Thank you Derek. I have read both posts from your links and one is 2015 and not sure if Brexit has changed things. I am still in a quandary over it. However, I can drive the tow car if we were ever asked to unhook. All suggestions and input is much appreciated. Kind regards Angela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 Madcow - 2022-01-30 11:09 AM Thank you Derek. I have read both posts from your links and one is 2015 and not sure if Brexit has changed things. Angela, Unfortunately Brexit will not have changed anything as it will be the laws of the relevant country regarding towing one motor vehicle with another, irrespective of the country of registration, which prevents you A-framing in many mainland countries. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 I don't wish to drag this string down an almost inevitable A frame rabbit hole, but I can explain a little more on the French law. Under French law, only vehicles equipped and operated as recovery vehicles are permitted to tow other vehicles on public roads. Normally, a broken down light vehicle (such as a car) would be recovered back to a garage for repair on some kind of flat bed truck or trailer. In that case the recovery vehicle can proceed at "normal" speeds. In an emergency (for instance where the vehicle has broken down on the carriageway in a dangerous location, say near the crest of a hill) and cannot be moved off road under its own power, it is permissible for it to be towed using a recognised (homologated, is the term used) rigid tow-pole (but not generally via any flexible rope or strap) but only for a short distance, to an off-road place of safety or, if within a reasonable distance, a place of repair. Then both towing, and towed, vehicles must have their hazard warning flashers illuminated throughout the tow, and must not travel at a speed exceeding (from memory), 40KPH. So far as I am aware no A frame has been recognised under the French regulation as a tow pole. Motorhomes are not recognised as authorised tow vehicles. This is part of the French "Code de la Route". To be clear, it is the act of towing one vehicle with another that is regulated, and not the A frame itself. Some UK sellers of A frames claim that their A frames have been Type Approved, or conform to other regulatory provisions. This may, or may not be true in specific cases, but it will not create an exception under French (or Spanish) law, as the regulation restricts towing (as above), and an A frame is not recognised as one of the permitted means. Another argument is that as A frames are "legal" to use in the UK, they must be accepted elsewhere under the Vienna Convention on Road Traffic which states, in terms, that vehicles or combinations of vehicles that are legal on the roads of one signatory country must be accepted onto the roads of all signatory countries. The flaw in this argument is that A frames are not "legal" in the UK, they are merely not illegal. Their actual legality has never been legislated for, nor tested in court, so there is no proof of legality if challenged. It has been acknowledged by the Department of Transport that they fall into a "grey" area of law that is peculiar to the UK. This contrasts with the legal basis in most (if not all) Continental countries, where legality requires permissive legislation, and anything that is not permitted, is deemed illegal. OTOH, the UK has the opposite tradition where if something is not legislated against, it is deemed legal until proved otherwise under common law or specific restrictive legislation is enacted. So, as the Vienna Convention can't be cited in defence, towing a car has to be presumed illegal and subject to penalty. This can be an on the spot fine, a requirement to remove the A frame and continue as two separate vehicles, or both. A further argument is that when towed, the car becomes a trailer, and in UK it is treated as such. This argument fails on the Continent because, although the car has its own registration document, and registration number, as would be required for a trailer, it is registered as a (in our case) "petrol car" of Type AA, and not as a trailer. So, if stopped and challenged, and the V5C "logbook" is demanded, the evidence is there in black and white to be read: it is a car. Then there is the little detail of the presence of an engine, and few trailers have engines! Seeking to get around this snag by not taking the V5C would create a further offence. The V5C must be carried, as must that of the motorhome, while driving a "foreign" vehicle abroad. I'm sorry to be negative, but the above is the clearest explanation I can give of the legal position on A frames in Continental Europe. I have no axe to grind either way, it gives no pleasure other than it might prevent your trip being marred by avoidable conflicts with various conflicts with the various police forces whose jurisdictions you will transit. All I will add, just in case, is that none of the above has any relationship to Brexit! It has been so, as can be seen from Derek's links above to old strings, for many years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 I too have never towed with an A frame as for us it kinda defeats the purpose of a nomadic self contained live in vehicle. From what Brian says in his great explanation may it be possible if stopped to unload the car from the A frame and proceed as two vehicles, assuming another legal driver is in the motorhome, presumably the A frame then becomes a trailer and not a car transporter, as long as lights and number plate regulations can be met. Not ideal but probably better than a fine? In the years that we did try a towed caravan I always found Motorways the safest and easiest way to travel. Boring maybe, but safer and more predictable than going through towns and villages, but each to their own - no right and no wrong way!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madcow Posted January 30, 2022 Author Share Posted January 30, 2022 Thank you Brian once again for a very clear explanation. I just wondered if us not being part of the EU made it even more difficult. KInd regards Angela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtravel Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 I'm sorry ti have mentioned Brexit, it wasn't my intention to go into politics, I just meant it like this: Regardless of the Vienna Convention: What can legally circulate in one EU country can do so in another one in the Community. What is registered in a country that is part of the EU must be recognized in another of the Community. And that is perfectly valid and legal. For example, it is quite common for us to equip a van as a camper DIY, have it approved in Germany (more permissive) and then re-homologate it overhere as a "one-off" exemplar. Quite common for us to see German motorcycles pulling a small trailer, which is not approved by our laws but accepted. And that is perfectly valid and legal. But only because within the community. I thought the same was true in the case of vehicles subject to English law, at least until your exit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebishbus Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 In English law a thing is legal until it is proved illegal, A frames have not found to be illegal in the UK. but this was not accepted in some EU countries. Brian B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 mtravel - 2022-01-30 2:11 PM I'm sorry ti have mentioned Brexit, it wasn't my intention to go into politics, I just meant it like this: Regardless of the Vienna Convention: What can legally circulate in one EU country can do so in another one in the Community. What is registered in a country that is part of the EU must be recognized in another of the Community. And that is perfectly valid and legal. For example, it is quite common for us to equip a van as a camper DIY, have it approved in Germany (more permissive) and then re-homologate it overhere as a "one-off" exemplar. Quite common for us to see German motorcycles pulling a small trailer, which is not approved by our laws but accepted. And that is perfectly valid and legal. But only because within the community. I thought the same was true in the case of vehicles subject to English law, at least until your exit. Massimo, the Vienna Convention on Road Traffic is a stand alone international treaty that the EEC/EU has adopted, but is by no means limited to the 27 member states. There 84 signatories (Contracting Parties) from across Europe, South America, and Africa. It is not an EU treaty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 thebishbus - 2022-01-30 2:33 PM In English law a thing is legal until it is proved illegal, A frames have not found to be illegal in the UK. but this was not accepted in some EU countries. Brian B Brian, as I said above, the question of the legality of A frames has never been established in UK law. That is the famous "grey area". In effect, they have no legal status whatever but, not having being pronounced illegal by government or courts, are not illegal if used within the UK. Other countries' legal systems do not follow the same legal convention as the UK, under which if not positively banned something is deemed legal, but rely on what I understand is referenced as Napoleonic law, under which something that is not formally permitted in law, is deemed illegal. That is the catch. Their legality in the UK cannot be proved. If the UK were to legislate to legalise them, or if a test case were brought against an A framer in court and lost, so establishing legal precedent, there would be a proof of their legality within the UK, and A frames would become legal in the 84 countries that have ratified the Vienna Convention on Road Traffic, and so throughout all the EU member states except Spain and Ireland, as well as in and many other countries. So far as Spain and Ireland, neither of which has ratified the convention, it seems A frames would still become legal, but under the blanket adoption of the Convention by the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 The 'legality' or otherwise of A-frame devices has never been an issue - it's the legality of using an A-frame to tow a legally-drivable motor vehicle that becomes questionable when the towing is done outside the UK. This recent article provides a reasonable summary of the situation https://www.carbuyer.co.uk/tips-and-advice/158397/whats-the-law-on-towing-with-an-a-frame#:~:text=As%20long%20as%20the%20A,brakes%20in%20the%20tow%20vehicle. The article includes the following section Driving abroad with an A-frame While towing a car with an A-frame (with functioning brakes and lights) is generally understood to be legal in the UK, the situation in European countries is less clear-cut. In some countries, A-frames were only ever intended for recovering stricken vehicles, and using them to tow for leisure purposes falls in a grey area. For this reason, it’s necessary to ensure you comply with the law in each country you visit, and often the only way to be sure of this is to leave the A-frame at home and instead tow your vehicle on a small trailer instead. See also https://www.caraman.co.uk/towing-siting-security/towing-a-car-behind-a-motorhome-in-europe/ In the late-1990s A-frames began to be marketed in the UK specifically for motorhomes to tow cars and there were 'legalty' questions from the onset. Since then the UK A-frame towing community has (deliberately in my view) failed to get its act together regarding identifying which non-UK countries allow, tolerate or forbid the practice and that attitude is unlikely to change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRETON FLYER Posted July 10, 2022 Share Posted July 10, 2022 Here's an anecdotal response to all those chancing their arm with an A-frame towed car behind the motorhome. I have a large MH so also take a Smart when travelling UK and Europe and I'm the only driver. From the outset, I viewed the claims that the gendarmes weren't bothered by the Brits towing with an A-frame with suspicion. Additionally, I didn't want to put 'miles' on the Smart dragging it behind the MH leaving aside whether it's allowable due to drive train damage. So to the point of this post: While staying at a CCC site in Oxford last month a kindly chap wandered over to 'admire' my lightweight trailer carrying the Smart as I was lashing it down. Having covered the ease of towing and relative performance of said combination, he carried on to say that a buddy of his, travelling through France to Spain this year, and towing using an A-frame had been stopped by the gendarmes, given a good talking to and was fined (I think something relatively small like 40 Euros). When asked by his friend what he was going to do now he'd been warned and fined, he said he would chance it and carried on the journey. However, on the return leg to the UK he was apparently stopped again. The difference being, of course, was that this time the gendarmes took a very dim view, especially as it was a 'second' offence in a matter of a few weeks, and promptly fined him 1000 Euros. As I started by saying it's anecdotal, but I found my campsite neighbour quite genuine. Well, it gave me a smug satisfaction to hear the tale. Safe journeys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GandJP Posted July 10, 2022 Share Posted July 10, 2022 I still wonder just why anyone would need to take a car when going to Europe. Having toured many countries with a motorhome over the last 9 years (yes including 2020 and 2021) there are so few roads that I have found too small for me especially in France) and even when stopping at a campsite for a few days or more I have not needed a car as having a rest is why I have stopped for a few days. I just love the freedom that I have in my van over there which just isn't available here where having a car is vital. I have gone over from 2 weeks to 3 months and even then just didn't need a car though I have taken bicycles. I would also add that seeing cars being dragged behind vans when on holiday is for me quite a rare sight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirou Posted July 12, 2022 Share Posted July 12, 2022 Well, at least around Garda, the parking areas are much friendlier to cars than vans. Last summer we drove the entire lenght of the lake without finding a spot to park and go for a swim. Either full parking or MHs banned. However, if you're staying there for a while, a bike will be much better than anything else. Traffic can be crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtravel Posted July 12, 2022 Share Posted July 12, 2022 Geez. Italy has 7,000+ km of sea shore. And the highest number of Unesco sites in the world. And yoy get stuck on a crowdy lake ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.