auntyjanet1 Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 Have just been looking on E-bay at an adaptor which the seller claims you attach to your red propane bottle , and connects to a bayonet fill gun as used by Autogas stations. in UK.My first reaction was is this method Safe! Legal! and why have i not seen a thread about this before Has anyone purchased and fitted this adaptor? There must be something wrong with this as it sounds to good to be true! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terry1956 Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 hi. reading the ad on ebay, it states that the safety valve works when you are filling the cylinder to stop overfill. I have the refillable cylinders on my motorhome and you can only fill them 85% full. This allows for expension when the gas turns from liquid to gas and also if the cylinder gets hot etc. I am not sure if normal cylinders are fitted with this type of safety valve or not, for the money being asked just get a refillable cylinder michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshortcircuit Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 Just do a search "Red propane bottle filling adapter" in "All Post" been done to death! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 auntyjanet1 - 2011-04-13 8:45 PMHave just been looking on E-bay at an adaptor which the seller claims you attach to your red propane bottle , and connects to a bayonet fill gun as used by Autogas stations. in UK.My first reaction was is this method Safe! Legal! and why have i not seen a thread about this before Has anyone purchased and fitted this adaptor? There must be something wrong with this as it sounds to good to be true! Yes to good to be true, do not do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 terry1956 - 2011-04-13 9:28 PM hi. reading the ad on ebay, it states that the safety valve works when you are filling the cylinder to stop overfill. I have the refillable cylinders on my motorhome and you can only fill them 85% full. This allows for expension when the gas turns from liquid to gas and also if the cylinder gets hot etc. I am not sure if normal cylinders are fitted with this type of safety valve or not, for the money being asked just get a refillable cylinder michael It would have been helpful to have a link to the e-bay advert, but I assume this is the adapter being referred to: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/LPG-Propane-Autogas-Gas-bottle-filling-adapter-Standard-/220769164511?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item3366de1cdf#ht_1101wt_1034 It needs emphasing that the adapter's "safety check valve" is NOT intended to prevent overfilling of the gas bottle. As stated in the advert, it is a one-way valve allowing LPG to be pumped into the bottle, but stopping LPG from coming back out of the bottle if the user leaves the bottle's own outlet-valve open and then removes the filler 'gun' from the outlet-valve. It's a useful safety feature, but it won't stop anyone filling the bottle beyond the recommended 80% of the bottle's internal capacity. The only way to guard against that happening is to have a cut-off valve within the bottle itself that prevents LPG entering the bottle once the 80% limit has been reached. I don't know what general UK legal requirements relate to gas bottle user-refilling (I suspect there aren't any), so I can't say whether there are any current regulations that make an 80% cut-off valve obligatory on a gas bottle marketed in the UK for user-refilling. Certainly my own elderly MTHA composite 'refillable' bottle does not have a 80% cut-off valve but, as far as I'm aware, all bottles purposely designed for user-refilling and currently marketed in the UK (Gaslow, Alugas, Stako, etc.) do have cut-off valves. Bottles that are not designed for user-refilling won't have cut-off valves, nor will they have a one-way valve as fitted to the e-bay adapter product. There's absolutely no doubt that, if you are planning to refill bottles without 80% cut-off valves, you'll need to keep your wits about you! It's fairly straightforward if the bottle is translucent (like my MTHA cylinder) where the amount of LPG remaining in the bottle is visible, but refilling a part-empty steel bottle will require that the bottle be weighed before refilling commences to ensure that the correct quantity of LPG is pumped in. As far as the legality of user-refilling 'exchange-only' gas bottles is concerned, it's difficult to see how this practice can ever be considered legal. Whether the exchange-only bottle comes from a foreign or UK gas supplier (Calor, Flogas, etc.) contracturally the bottle will always remain the property of that supplier who will always prohibit user-refilling. If you buy a Calor bottle for a few quid from a car-boot sale or get given one by a mate, it will never be 100% yours. Even if you actually 'own' your gas bottle (eg. I 'own' my MTHA bottle) rather than 'hire' it (as is the case with exchange-ony bottles from Calor, Flogas, etc.), autogas outlets may prohibit you from refilling it. Following a motorhome-related accident a while back (the photo suggests that the Hymer owner was operating the autogas pump with the motorhome's fridge operating on gas) Countrywide has now forbidden the refilling of 'free standing' bottles at its autogas service-points. (Incidentally, I had an exciting experience recently in France when refilling my gas bottle at a Super U LPG outlet. The filler gun looked well worn, so I was slightly suspicious of it to begin with. It initially seemed to connect securely to the bottle, but it's impossible to know what's going to happen until you finalise the connection and at that point liquid LPG began to spurt out of the connection between gun and the bottle's filling adapter and all over my (gloved) hands. I hadn't actually begun to refill the bottle, so the LPG was obviously what was left under pressure in the pump's filler hose. Anyway, having hurriedly removed the gun from the bottle and reconnected it, things were OK. It just proves how easy it is to have an accident with LPG even if you try your utmost to be careful.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIB Posted April 15, 2011 Share Posted April 15, 2011 Many years ago we were on a camping trip in the former Yugoslavia when I took a camping gaz bottle to a bona fide filling station. They obviously overfilled it, unbeknown to me and when I re-connected it to my camping stove on the camp site and lit it, a flame about 20 foot high erupted. I had a devil of a job getting near enough to eventually smother the flames. The thought of that happening in a motor home does'nt bear thinking about. DO NOT MESS with LPG :$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auntyjanet1 Posted April 15, 2011 Author Share Posted April 15, 2011 Thanks to everyone who posted i cant understand how these adapters are allowed to be sold,as they could possibly be downright dangerous , i think i,ll stick to having a single Gaslow bottle fitted,thanks again all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lpgadapter Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 It is save! But you have to go through instruction. Give us a call if you need help. Check our website with lpg adapters to refill bottles / fill tanks from pump stations. Webiste: LPG Adapter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agaric Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 Jeepers you had to dig deep for that old one. Looks more like an advert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 I would also think that many filling stations will prevent you from filling a freestanding cylinder. Some are a little nervous about the use of properly installed refillable X with an external filler. Personally, I would (have) install proper refillable LPG cylinders or an under slung tank (although that needs to have a remote shut off valve installed inside the vehicle for ease of use) that has a built in 80% cutoff valve fitted. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 lpgadapter - 2015-12-21 11:57 AM It is save! But you have to go through instruction. Give us a call if you need help. Check our website with lpg adapters to refill bottles / fill tanks from pump stations. Webiste: LPG Adapter Guys, this post is SPAM! Look at the user name and link and you'll soon see. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 I would never click on any link posted on here unless it was from a well known and trusted contributor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lpgadapter Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 Keithl - 2015-12-21 12:47 PM lpgadapter - 2015-12-21 11:57 AM It is save! But you have to go through instruction. Give us a call if you need help. Check our website with lpg adapters to refill bottles / fill tanks from pump stations. Webiste: LPG Adapter Guys, this post is SPAM! Look at the user name and link and you'll soon see. Keith. It's not spam mate. I'm sharing with you good source of bottle filling adaptors :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 lpgadapter I see you’ve also added a posting to a 2008 discussion... http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/refillable-gas-bottles/14097/#M483141 User-refilling gas canisters with no 80% cut-off valve via an adapter relies on the user being very careful to ensure the canister is not overfilled. Even if the adapter has a one-way valve, the potential to overfill will always be present. It’s a bit like handling a pistol with no safety-catch. As long as you know what you are doing and appreciate that the gun lacks a safety-catch it might be considered ‘safe’, but it’s a good deal less ‘safe’ for the average person than if the gun had a safety-catch. I have an adapter that permits me to refill Calor propane bottles with autogas, but I would never claim doing this is a ‘safe’ process. I have a similar adapter that permits me to directly refill a Gaslow R67 bottle that has an 80% cut-off valve and I do consider that process ’safe’. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve928 Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 lpgadapter's website offers a product that I've never seen before (and I have looked extensively in the past). It allows a remote filler point and hose to be connected to a non-refillable bottle. This brings a whole new level of subterfuge to the refilling of Calor etc. bottles as the pump attendant can no longer see what you're trying to fill and if it catches on then it's hard to see it as anything else than another nail in the coffin for refillable motorhome gas systems, sadly. Edit - by which I mean that it will become increasingly difficult to find somewhere that will allow us to fill up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmacz Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 There will always be places to fill up, asda is one, same place you fill up the car on lpg. Seems an expensive adapter for the uk only, if you travel, might be worth it for the other adapters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 Is it me? Quite apart from the fact that there are proper refillable systems on the market why on earth would anyone want to risk their own lives using an adaptor on a cylinder that may overfill however careful you are? Assuming you can fill up somewhere that will return a blind eye but you do end up filling above the 80% mark you run a serious risk of liquid (not gas) LPG being fed to the appliance which will ignite like rocket fuel. At least it will be nice and warm. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 Steve928 - 2015-12-21 4:22 PM lpgadapter's website offers a product that I've never seen before (and I have looked extensively in the past). It allows a remote filler point and hose to be connected to a non-refillable bottle. This brings a whole new level of subterfuge to the refilling of Calor etc. bottles as the pump attendant can no longer see what you're trying to fill and if it catches on then it's hard to see it as anything else than another nail in the coffin for refillable motorhome gas systems, sadly. Edit - by which I mean that it will become increasingly difficult to find somewhere that will allow us to fill up. As you suggest, it would appear that the thinking behind this type of kit http://lpggpl.com/product/gas-bottle-adaptor/ is to disguise that a gas-canister not designed for user-refilling (eg. a ‘hired’ Calor bottle) is being refilled. Overlooking the dubious legality of filling a gas-bottle that one does not own and that the hire-company (eg. Calor) expressly forbids being user-refilled, there’s an ecological downside. When ‘direct filling' a gas-bottle (where an adapter is attached directly to the gas-bottle’s inlet) it should be anticipated that a small amount of gas will be released into the air when the pump-gun is detached from the adapter. However, when the bottle is ‘Calor type’ and a 2-metre remote-filling hose is between the filler-point and the bottle’s inlet, there will be a much larger release of gas when the hose is disconnected from the bottle’s inlet. As exchange-only bottles are all ’single-hole’ design it will always be necessary to disconnect the hose from the bottle before the bottle can be used, so it’s unavoidable that the gas in the hose will be lost into the air. lpgadapter’s firm instructs that only completely-empty canisters should be refilled and that these should not be refilled beyond 80% capacity. Not exceeding the 80%-capacity limit involves knowing the weight of gas the bottle is designed to hold, converting that weight to litres on the basis of a litre of autogas weighing 0.5kg, (eg. a 13kg-capacity bottle will hold about 26 litres) then pumping in no more than 80% of that literage (ie. no more than 20.8 litres). Not something for the arithmetically-challenged, then, but otherwise people have been user-refilling ‘hired’ gas-bottles for as long as LPG pumps have been around and filling adapters became available - except I don’t think anyone until now has suggested using a remote-filling ploy to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshortcircuit Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 david lloyd - 2015-12-22 9:41 AM Is it me? Quite apart from the fact that there are proper refillable systems on the market why on earth would anyone want to risk their own lives using an adaptor on a cylinder that may overfill however careful you are? Assuming you can fill up somewhere that will return a blind eye but you do end up filling above the 80% mark you run a serious risk of liquid (not gas) LPG being fed to the appliance which will ignite like rocket fuel. At least it will be nice and warm. David And you are that confident your 80% cutoff is going to operate? I even with 80% cutoff valve, watch a very accurate slow moving gauge, and make sure it cuts off at 80% not like many who blindly believe that it will automatically work. Following the same procedure it is very easy to fill an empty bottle to 80% using an adapter and the same filling procedure so no risk to life. If you understand the procedure then there are no problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 Understanding a refilling procedure definitely does not mean there will be no problems. Although there is always the possibility that a bottle’s shut-off valve may fail to cut off gas delivery at the 80% threshold and result in overfilling, there’s also the possibility that a (previously) "very accurate slow moving gauge” can become unreliable. Any opaque gas bottle/tank designed for user-refilling has the potential to be overfilled without the user being aware of this. If the bottle/tank has a shut-off valve and a gauge-system that’s designed/engineered to be accurate, the chances of overfilling will be small, but the overfilling risk will never be nil. To be completely confident that a gas-bottle has not been overfilled the user needs to be able to see the gas-level inside the bottle. This capability is offered by the “Safefill” translucent user-refillable bottle, but this potential advantage over an opaque metal bottle is offset by the need to disconnect/reconnect the Safefill bottle from the leisure-vehicle’s gas system as part of the refilling procedure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancepar Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 auntyjanet1 - 2011-04-13 8:45 PMHave just been looking on E-bay at an adaptor which the seller claims you attach to your red propane bottle , and connects to a bayonet fill gun as used by Autogas stations. in UK.My first reaction was is this method Safe! Legal! and why have i not seen a thread about this before Has anyone purchased and fitted this adaptor? There must be something wrong with this as it sounds to good to be true! I did some investigating regarding these self-fill of LPG cylinders in the UK using an adaptor that the user has to determine that the cylinder only gets a 80% fill as apposed to an auto-cut off device and decided it was not for me.However if it helps, and if you can copy and print the image below, take it to your local LPG filling station/garage whatever and explain what you are proposing, and ask if they would allow you to use it. http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c214/lancepar/Autotrail/Adaptor-and-Cylinder_zpsz6shro7b.jpgI visited a local Lister Gasses depot and the shop said "No" and a guy that maintained the gas pump there was also of the same opinion.I think I have seen a ruling somewhere, that in the rental agreement for Calor it prohibits the renter refilling Calor bottles, don't quote me!. If they are ones own bottles then it may be a different ball game but finding somewhere to fill may still be a problem. HTH B-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 We know that when Calor fill a 6kg propane that 6kg or 12 litres near enough is a safe fill because Calor tell us that. On that basis if you take an empty 6 kg Calor cylinder and open the tap to make sure it is empty then fill and watch the filler pump guage and stop at or preferably just before 12 litres it follows that is also a safe limit. I have even seen a Calor Lite bottle painted yellow on a UK van in France being filled but personally I could do without the faff of having to change from inlet to outlet on a one hole bottle so I will stick with a proper refillable with two holes! I suppose it would not beyond the wit of man to construct a changeover tap and connection system that would enable a one hole bottle to be both filled and used, gas in and gas out, from the one orifice? Whether the average user would have enough wit to do so safely is of course a very different matter! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 lancepar - 2015-12-22 1:48 PM ...I think I have seen a ruling somewhere, that in the rental agreement for Calor it prohibits the renter refilling Calor bottles, don't quote me!. If they are ones own bottles then it may be a different ball game but finding somewhere to fill may still be a problem. HTH B-) This Calor webpage details the company’s terms and conditions regarding refilling, exchanging and returning their gas bottles: http://www.calor.co.uk/gas-bottles/buying-gas-bottles/gas-refills-exchanges-returns The Cylinder Refill Agrrement section includes the following paragraphs "3. Cylinders remain the property of the Company at all times and may only be filled by the Company The company makes the cylinder(s) available to the user as a means of safely transporting and storing the gas supplied. This agreement is not a rental agreement and it does not provide the user with title in the cylinder. The user will not part with possession or control of the cylinder(s) (other than to a CALOR outlet) nor claim to have any rights that conflict with this agreement, nor create or purport or attempt to create any agency or bailment in relation to the cylinder(s) or to the user’s obligations. 4. Use of Cylinders Cylinders may be used only as a container for Gas and not be sold, exchanged (other than for the Purpose of the Agreement), hired, assigned, transferred, mortgaged, lent, abandoned, nor damaged, decanted, filled or tampered with.” It’s probable that any company (UK or ‘foreign’) that offers a gas-bottle exchange service will specify similar restrictions. The only gas bottles where the supplying company does not APPEAR to prohibit user-refilling are the non-disposlable Campingaz canisters - in this case there’s no actual hire agreement and the user essentially ‘buys’ the initial bottle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artygroup Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Hi Guys I'm a gas engineer and would advise against using this adaptor.... Go the full hog and fit a refillable bottle or bottles. there is many rules abroad and you will not be allowed to refill your bottles with that adaptor. I bought my refillable bottles and hoses from autogas 2000 "Wendy" http://www.autogasshop.co.uk/rv-6kg-refillable-steel-twin-gas-bottle-kit-969-p.asp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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