Motorhome "Weight" Limits. what is your opinion?

[PeteH]

There is a thread running (elsewhere) on Motor-home weights and payloads, which has occupied minds for some days now. Simply put it goes on these lines:-

 

It would transpire that the vast majority of Motor-homes sold across Europe and the UK are "plated" at 3500kg. Some of which have been found, on reaching a weigh bridge to have actual Payloads of as little as 60kg. Now 60 kg does not even include a passenger!. Never mind the food in the lockers and the Fridge plus clothing and other, even "basic" associated "stuff", we Motor-home users tend to carry. The issue appears to be that in the UK and across Europe the Licensing regimes "cut off" at 3.5tonne. driving anything heavier requires a different Licence Grade, (in the UK that is C1).

 

The consensus is that the Manufacturers, are building for a 3500kg limit, and to a large extent are "missing the Target", with the end result that payloads are inadequate for their intended use. And, in my view, should be rejected by purchaser at point of sale.

 

I would submit that the most equitable solution to this dilemma, from both a manufacturer and user aspect would be to raise the base licence (UK B) to 4tonne? "for NON commercial use". OR giving Motor-Caravans their own Category with a 4t limit. A move which would take away the necessity to get "Creative" with what one carries for a leisure activity enjoyed my Millions in the UK and across Europe every year.

 

May I suggest that a "lobbying" campaign be carried out to have this considered, perhaps lead by our (newly revised) "Caravan AND Motorhome Club" in conjunction with the CCC and other interested bodies, and to bring Manufacturers on board, on the grounds that, again in my view, they would be beneficiaries of such a sane move.

 

An argument proposed against this move, in that your average "White Van Man" could use the "rule" to overload unsuitable vehicles, could be guarded against by even making the change as suggested, "for non commercial use ONLY"?.

 

Another argument I have seen, "Heavier Motor-Caravans would be more dangerous", does not hold water, there is no evidence that a Vehicle being driven by a 3.5t licensee is any more dangerous than one being driven by a C1 Holder?. In the vast majority of cases the SAME vehicle has just been down rated by the manufacturer to comply with the 3.5t limit.

 

 

 

Pete.

[david lloyd]

Very valid observations Pete, but my own conclusions and remedies would be along different lines. I fully agree that manufacturers are not taking a responsible view of their products regarding weights and payload requirements but can't see that that would provide a sufficiently reliable argument to change the driving licence laws to accomodate them if the present 3.5t limit has not stopped them from building vehicles with insufficient payload then what would change if that were increased to 4t? My feeling is that manufacturers would simply carry on increasing the built weight of their products - in an attemp to meet the growing demand by motorhomers for ever increasing facilities. I would suggest that is why we are at the position we are at now.

 

The real issue is that motorhome purchasers should make sure the vehicle meets their requirements in all respects, including payload and perhaps we should be more inclined to demand a weighbridge certificate to prove the payload available before the sale is concluded. Any vehicke not giving sufficient payload can be rejected - or simply do not buy it. This pressure on dealers would very quickly turn into pressure on manufacturers to think more carefully about creating products that give sufficient payload. Perhaps, it would bear more fruit if efforts were directed toward bringing in a change in the law that requires motorhomes (and other light commercial vehicles) to be sold a with a current weight certificate?

 

For me, the fact is that wherever you set the limit you will continue to have people pushing that limit. Whether that be manufacturers building up to it, inexperienced buyers falling into the trap of buying a vehicle with a limit insufficient for their needs or any buyer simply ignoring the limit and driving with an overloaded vehicle. There are Motorhomes built with sufficient payload and there are mechanisms (including taking a C1driving test) to allow vehicles to be upgraded to a higher weight and give people the opportunity, if they don't already have it, of being able to legally drive a vehicle up to 7.5t.

 

David

[Derek Uzzell]

Pete

 

I refer you to this earlier forum thread and, in particular, my posting of 13 February 2013 4:58 PM

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/New-European-License-for-Motorhomes-up-to-4250kgs/30325/

 

Small motorhomes are unlikely to exceed the 3500kg threshold when normally loaded, and even medium-sized motorhomes (say up to 6.5m long) should be OK. And it should be visually obvious when larger motorhomes (eg. those built on a tandem rear-axle Al-Ko chassis) will exceed 3500kg empty never mind loaded.

 

In the middle are motorhomes that will have restricted (sometimes very restricted) payload when normally loaded if operated at 3500kg. But a) those vehicles are likely to be fairly large and b) the motorhome manufacturer’s literature will indicate that payload will be limited. As I’ve said several times in the past, if a motorhome manufacturer offers a model with a maximum overall weight of 3500kg and an optional higher weight (eg. 3500kg or 3850kg) there’s a good chance that it’s because there won’t be a huge amount of payload at 3500kg.

 

As it’s possible to purchase quite sizeable motorhomes that can be operated realistically at 3500kg (for instance Carthago and Hymer make this a selling point)

 

http://www.carthago.com/en/motorhomes/integrated-lightweight/c-compactline/

 

https://www.hymer.com/en/models/motorhomes/integrated/hymer-exsis-i/highlights.html

 

it’s surely down to motorhome buyers/owners to be more careful at the model-selection stage, rather than seek to change the driving-licence system.

 

I recall talking to a motorhome salesman at one of the Malvern shows. He told me that a buyer of a largish new German motorhome had returned the vehicle to them saying that, having had it weighed, it had been found to exceed its 3500kg plated limit and, as the buyer was restricted to a “B” driving-licence (presumably for health reasons) he demanded his money back.

 

When the motorhome was inspected it became evident that lots of heavy extras had been fitted post-sale (tow-bar, awning, etc.) The documentation relating to when the motorhome had been ordered was then shown to the buyer - the paperwork included the caveat “Payload at 3500kg will be limited and care should be taken if accessories are to be fitted.”

 

I asked what happened and the salesman said they had sold the buyer a motorhome that was smaller and lighter than the original and had more payload at 3500kg, and had then ‘uplated' the original by a few hundred kg and easily sold it on. So profit all the way down the line for the dealership and an expensive education for one motorcaravanner.

 

 

 

 

 

[derek pringle]

hi,

If a m/h of whatever make in say the case of a 4 berth cannot carry the weight of basic requirements for 4 people, is it fit for purpose?

If each m/h coming out of the factory has slightly different payloads for the same type of vehicle,then each and every m/h should come with a certificate stating exactly what that 'disposable' capacity is.

Some m/h,s look great with loads of cupboards and storage space but as soon as anything is placed in these areas the van can be overweight.

Considering the cost of these vehicles I believe the customers are treated appallingly.

cheers

derek

[Derek Uzzell]

When people buy a car they can see how many seats it has and how big its boot is but, although the vehicle will have overall, train and axle weight maxima on its VIN-plate, I doubt if many people check those data.

 

It’s not the same with motorhomes...

[Bop]

Pete,

 

The whole weigh bridge certificate-thingy is a brilliant idea.

 

There are some very clever folk on this forum that advise you to do as much research as possible, prior to purchase, but when you have a whole new generation of potential motorhomers who purchase their vehicles based on the information supplied by the salesmans advice then this is when the problems start occurring.

 

I have been looking at purchasing a new Motorhome and as such we have approached three dealers which sell the same product.

 

Example: Mrs Bop and I have been looking at purchasing a particular MH with an unladen weight of circa 3T and an MTPLM of 3.5T. I've asked the dealers what these figures mean and what payload is available to me; the answers so far:

 

Dealer-1: "The 3T unladen weight excludes fuel, passengers, driver, water, awning, extras etc".

 

Dealer-2: "The 3T unladen weight includes the drivers weight, 20% of fuel tank filled, 20% of water tank filled and the weight of the awning.

 

Dealer-3: "The 3T figure included the driver, 90% of fuel tank filled, 90% of water tank filled, but the extras will not be included in the unladen weight!

 

This is simply redicolous and if I were to work off Dealer-3's figures then I would only have a usable payload of 130KG. (I have based the figures on two people @ 70kg each).

 

The whole Motorhome industry needs a good clean-up IMO and it should start with the Dealers who are so focused on selling their gear that they don't give two craps about the effects on the customer.

 

Sorry to be so blunt,

 

Very best,

 

Andrew

[crocs]

You may have mixed the numbers up, Bop, as it looks. as if Dealer 3's figure give you the most payload.

 

But, this is not the issue. It's about salesmen's product knowledge and their integrity to use it for the benefit of informing the customer. That just does not happen, so it is, as always, caveat emptor and making sure we do our homework properly.

 

Robert

[david lloyd]

However, I would agree that there should be at least some responsibility on the seller to ensure that what they are selling not only meets the needs of the buyer but also that they are not selling to someone who is not legally entitled to drive said vehicle or is not given the correct advice regarding the legalities of weight.

 

As a plain example, I have lost count of the number of times I have been allowed to take a vehicle on a test run and no one has even checked that I have a licence never mind that it covers the weight of the vehicle.

 

So, yes, sales staff should be acting more responsibly but the manufacturers should also be looking to the changes occurring (particularly in the UK) regarding the number of people now entitled to drive +3.5t Motorhomes. I have to say this is not a new problem either. As I mentioned before if the weight limits were increased then manufacturers would simply build up to that limit and dealers would still sell you an overweight vehicle. Many are sadly lacking in their own knowledge of the weight limits and legislation - some years ago I was told emphatically told by a large dealership that I could drive a +7.5t RV on a standard car licence. Having held a HGV Class 1 previously I questioned this advice and certainly the next dealer I visited and asked the same question of equally emphatically said I could not and produced the DVLA regulations which specifically state that Motorhomes over 7.5t cannot be driven without a valid LGV (as it now is) licence.

 

But I don't think the answer is to try and galvanise whatever support there is to change the license system to increase the weight of vehicke that someone can drive on a standard cat B licence. When you consider the mass of a 3.5t vehicle that a newly qualified driver is currently able to take on the road I would think increasing that weight/size of vehicle may increase the risks to road users. If anything, let's get dealers to at least provide a current weight certificate so that informed decisions can be made.

 

David

[Brock]

Good post, David. Hits the nail on the head.

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

Bop - 2017-03-05 11:51 AM

 

...Dealer-1: "The 3T unladen weight excludes fuel, passengers, driver, water, awning, extras etc”...

 

 

That explanation accurately defines a motorhome’s “unladen weight”

 

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-weights-explained

 

In fact, it’s very unlikely that a motorhome’s genuine "unladen weight" will be quoted in a manufacturer’s documentation, though Mass In Running Order (MIRO) normally will be. How the MIRO datum is calculated varies, but the formula used will generally be defined. For example in the “REMEMBER” box on Page 2 of this 2017 Rapido document

 

http://www.rapido-motorhome.co.uk/dist/pdf/EN/GT_serie-6f-6ff.pdf

 

Though it will be seen that Rapido uses "unladen weight” as an equivalent to MIRO.

 

(There’s always the possibilty to demand that a dealer provide a weighbridge certificate for a new or used motorhome. I remember a dealer telling me that a buyer of a new Auto-Sleepers motorhome insisted on this, warning that he would reject the vehicle if it exceeded the weight figures in the A-S brochure.)

[yoko8pups]

PeteH - 2017-03-05 7:28 AM

 

There is a thread running (elsewhere) on Motor-home weights and payloads, which has occupied minds for some days now. Simply put it goes on these lines:-

 

It would transpire that the vast majority of Motor-homes sold across Europe and the UK are "plated" at 3500kg. Some of which have been found, on reaching a weigh bridge to have actual Payloads of as little as 60kg. Now 60 kg does not even include a passenger!. Never mind the food in the lockers and the Fridge plus clothing and other, even "basic" associated "stuff", we Motor-home users tend to carry. The issue appears to be that in the UK and across Europe the Licensing regimes "cut off" at 3.5tonne. driving anything heavier requires a different Licence Grade, (in the UK that is C1).

 

The consensus is that the Manufacturers, are building for a 3500kg limit, and to a large extent are "missing the Target", with the end result that payloads are inadequate for their intended use. And, in my view, should be rejected by purchaser at point of sale.

 

I would submit that the most equitable solution to this dilemma, from both a manufacturer and user aspect would be to raise the base licence (UK B) to 4tonne? "for NON commercial use". OR giving Motor-Caravans their own Category with a 4t limit. A move which would take away the necessity to get "Creative" with what one carries for a leisure activity enjoyed my Millions in the UK and across Europe every year.

 

May I suggest that a "lobbying" campaign be carried out to have this considered, perhaps lead by our (newly revised) "Caravan AND Motorhome Club" in conjunction with the CCC and other interested bodies, and to bring Manufacturers on board, on the grounds that, again in my view, they would be beneficiaries of such a sane move.

 

An argument proposed against this move, in that your average "White Van Man" could use the "rule" to overload unsuitable vehicles, could be guarded against by even making the change as suggested, "for non commercial use ONLY"?.

 

Another argument I have seen, "Heavier Motor-Caravans would be more dangerous", does not hold water, there is no evidence that a Vehicle being driven by a 3.5t licensee is any more dangerous than one being driven by a C1 Holder?. In the vast majority of cases the SAME vehicle has just been down rated by the manufacturer to comply with the 3.5t limit.

 

 

 

Pete.

[yoko8pups]

In Portugal, within the EU rules, a cat B licence can drive a 4250 motorhome, it is an exception to the norm so there is a precedent for this.

 

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

My opinion: There were lobby's for a long time on this subject. But the border lines are still what they are both technical and about the licence.Manufactures must show the weight including options. Its about them and you if this will be realistic.Not to mention your permanent options afterwards where you end in a position of not resale by cutting your motor home in half. But it would be nice to drive fiat light at 4t whit a B licence including 120 ltr fresh water at a nice filling point.For the dogs and myself i carry the water i like in jerrycans. These tanks are good for toilet,shower, and dish water. but do quality checks in time and the right cleaning process. These tanks deserve it for their design and gravity placement and the effort of workmanship about their pumps and hot- cold waterlines including the boiler. In case of alde boiler tap every month to renew the air cushion and get away of the infected water and at start up use the anti gionella feature at the highest temperature.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

I am in the same position i have 3210kg whit 90 percent liquids of fuel-gas- water capacity.which is 290kg payload. driver 75kg and myself 62kg leaves 150kg less the 10 percent full. Technically i am plated 3850 but in belgium you can drive licence b at max 3500kg . Same frustation since i like full air which is extra kg.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

And Belgium is the only country in the EEC which do not accept the 5 percent weight tolerance in plus or minus being 175 kg. What about this driving 3675kg max in the uk?

[Steve928]

monique.hubrechts@gm - 2017-03-05 4:31 PM

 

And Belgium is the only country in the EEC which do not accept the 5 percent weight tolerance in plus or minus being 175 kg. What about this driving 3675kg max in the uk?

 

The table of fines relating to overloading in the UK start at 5% which suggests that 0-5% will not incur a fine, although that is pure assumption.

I doubt that you would be allowed to continue your journey at a weight above MAM though. For some that may mean only dumping water or other fluids (!) but for others could mean leaving the dog, children or SO in the layby.

[ron.]

There's a perfectly good EU standard that lays down the requirements for how payload should be calculated - EN1646-2. However, many manufacturers ignore it, including Hymer I believe, to make their products appear better than they are. These are the ones to beware of.

 

Ron

[stevec176]

Last year I bought a new Rapido 665f max weight 3500kg, vehicle weight 3005kg which supposedly left me with 495kg to play with, quite a lot you would think. I had a 100 watt solar panel fitted plus it came with a special fit pack, radio, blinds etc. A few weeks after we'd had it I decided to have it weighed so off my wife and I went with the van ready for our next weekend outing to the local weigh bridge. We paid our £15 and the van was weighed with both my wife and I inside, imagine our surprise when we were given the weigh slip and it showed the van weighing 3500kg exact. We've since had an awning fitted so we will need to have the van reweighed to see how much we are over so that at least we'll know. I've spoken to a couple of other motorhomers and they carry bikes but don't want to know what their vans weigh, think that's the Ostrich effect isn't it.

[Bop]

crocs - 2017-03-05 12:12 PM

 

You may have mixed the numbers up, Bop, as it looks.

 

Robert

 

Robert,

 

I can read between the lines good sir; what you're telling me is that I would make a good Motorhome salesperson. They aren't good with figures either.

 

I'll get my application submitted asap :-)

 

All the best,

 

Andrew

[PeteH]

Hi

 

Just to clarify something. It is suggested that "Manufacturers would just build to the "new" weight"?.

 

I fail to see that.

 

Take the very prolific Fiat/Alko set-up. Even the 3?L (Light) chassis can be uprated to 3850kg. AS A PAPER EXERCISE. (as indeed my own is) which makes it legal, driven on the C1 licence renewable every 3 years with medical. Therefore in effect This manufacturer already does. which has not caused a rush by coach-builders to add unnecessary weigh?

 

http://www.al-ko.co.uk/edit/files/downloads/al-ko-amc-commercial-brochure-2010.pdf (Page12).

 

What I am asking is why cannot his be acknowledge, by a SENSIBLE revision of the B licence?.

 

Pete

[david lloyd]

PeteH - 2017-03-06 6:41 AM

 

Hi

 

Just to clarify something. It is suggested that "Manufacturers would just build to the "new" weight"?.

 

I fail to see that.

 

Take the very prolific Fiat/Alko set-up. Even the 3?L (Light) chassis can be uprated to 3850kg. AS A PAPER EXERCISE. (as indeed my own is) which makes it legal, driven on the C1 licence renewable every 3 years with medical. Therefore in effect This manufacturer already does. which has not caused a rush by coach-builders to add unnecessary weigh?

 

http://www.al-ko.co.uk/edit/files/downloads/al-ko-amc-commercial-brochure-2010.pdf (Page12).

 

What I am asking is why cannot his be acknowledge, by a SENSIBLE revision of the B licence?.

 

Pete

 

Hi Pete, my comment referring to manufacturers simply building up to the new weight is based on the historical evidence during the last couple of decades. It was not unusual for companies like Swift to build Motorhomes with payloads of 700+ kg but, as motorhomers starter expecting more and bigger, heavier items as basic installation (cooker, fridge freezer etc) this amount payload disappeared as the manufacturers had some leeway to play with. During that growth period they never really were interested in whether or not the user had sufficient payload. Right up to a few years ago this was still happening. An example was the motorhome of the year - a new Adria A-Class - having around 200kg payload for a 6 berth!

 

However, in the last couple of years, some of the manufacturers have recognised that the number of (UK citizens) with grandfather rights to drive up to 7.5t is dwindling and market growth is in the younger family sector where most do not have a C1 licence. This, in turn, has driven them to cut down the weight of the vehicles they produce, bringing in new, lighter construction techniques which is also a good thing.

 

My point is that, if the CatB licence restriction were raised to 4t then manufactures are likely to once again feel they are not bound to restrict their design weights. Remember, they are unconcerned about whether the user can manage with 200kg until it comes to a point where sales drop. My other point is that it is more difficult than most people recognise to bring about a change in something like the driving licence requirements. Especially when there are procedures already in place to allow anyone with a Cat B licence to take their C1 licence if they wish to drive a heavier vehicle. Most people who,pass their test will drive nothing heavier than a 4x4 so there isn't even an overriding need to increase the driving licence weight limit to accomodate the bulk of the population.

 

Finally, even with a Cat B limit of 4t on the licence it would still remain the responsibility of the buyer to ensure they are legally entitled to drive the vehicle they are interested in - and if that vehicle was being built with a MIRO of (say) 3750kg then having a licence entitling them to drive 4t may not be of any use - and this does not even begin to address the issue of individual axle weights.

 

David

[Derek Uzzell]

yoko8pups - 2017-03-05 3:36 PM

 

In Portugal, within the EU rules, a cat B licence can drive a 4250 motorhome, it is an exception to the norm so there is a precedent for this.

 

What you have said is correct, but it’s only a precedent if precedents are allowed to be based on mistakes. ;-)

 

The last few postings of this April 2016 discussion refer

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Hitch-in-getting-van-weight-uprated/41401/

[Barryd999]

I think the manufacturers will work up to what ever the max weight for that van or chassis is and rarely leave you enough. I have looked at van payloads a lot in the past few years as I have been trying to find a replacement for our ageing 1996 Kontiki 640 with no success. Here is the thing though. Newer vans have got very lardy. Our Kontiki is under 3500kg but has nearly 700kg payload and enough on the back axle to take a scooter and rack yet the 4000kg newer version has nowhere near enough available payload. The reason? Its got fat.

 

I know people want better quality but even stuff like the toilet door and bed slats have all got much more heavy duty, the Hab door is another one. Great big thick things with pockets and other stuff in them. Microwaves and other big heavy fittings. All this comes at a price. Weight.

 

Then I see really stupid things like fresh water tanks or leisure batteries right at the back of the van! Mental.

 

I just dont think manufacturers bother enough to think payload through.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

It seems now that the fiat light can be technically and approved by EEC regulations to the new border line of 4 tons. Including all phases involved. But the trend in Europe is downsizing. There are some relax exemptions for RV vehicles.But not on weight and some on licence. We have no space like the USA and Canada. The Germans whit their large RV market are number one to increase weight for the B- licence. Its all in the game. That 5 percent was also discussed be happy whit these 175 kg extra. it is about the max allowable garage load on the rear.

[Derek Uzzell]

Let’s also not forget that that the ‘weight split’ relating to UK speed limits is not at 3500kg, but remains at 3050kg (3 Imperial tons) unladen weight.

 

http://www.ukmotorhomes.net/motorhome-faqs/13-speed-limits