Pete-B Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Am I right in thinking that the new 2015 Ducato comes with tyre pressure monitor as standard?? If so how does it work I wonder and does this, eventually spell the end for Tyre Pal perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Pete-B - 2015-02-28 3:10 PM Am I right in thinking that the new 2015 Ducato comes with tyre pressure monitor as standard?? If so how does it work I wonder and does this, eventually spell the end for Tyre Pal perhaps? I don't think it is standard, it's on the options list, according to Fleetbuyer : Further driving assistance systems are available as options, such as rain-sensing wipers, cruise control with a speed limiter (standard on Tecnico); TPMS (tyre pressure monitoring system) and dusk-sensing headlamps which can be combined with AHBA (automatic high beam activation). Also available is Fiat’s advanced Traction+ (with HDC) system which guarantees greater traction even on poor grip surfaces (such as snow or mud) without the added weight, complexity and increasing running costs associated with full 4x4 systems. HDC (hill descent control) operates on steep descents to keep the speed within a pre-set limit by utilising the ESC system to brake individual wheels. So unless specified as an option, and paid for, you don't get it. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terry1956 Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Tyre pressure monitors are a pain. They work off the rotation weight of the tire.i have monitors fitted to the mini and my bmw.a few months back both cars had faults with system.its just one more useless thing to go wrong. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Pete-B This link mentions the mandatory requirement for a TPMS system http://www.mytyres.co.uk/TPMS-Info.html and states that "From the 1st November 2014 all motor vehicles and mobile homes in the EU must have a TPMS at initial registration.” It will be seen that TPMS systems can be either direct (where the tyre-pressure is actually measured) or indirect (where the loss of pressure is deduced from a change in the rotational speed of a wheel). The Fiat Ducato X290 Owner Handbook describes the operating principles of the TPMS and the system itself is the ‘direct’ type with sensors on the underside of the tyre-valve. 1st November 2014 is also the date when an Electronic Stability Control system apparently became mandatory. ESC was part of the Ducato X290’s standard specification, but motorhome manufacturers were permitted (by Fiat) to ‘deselect’ ESC if they so wished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 So, will the buyer of a 2015 motor home get a TPMS as standard or not ? Fleet buyer says no, the EU says yes, only one way to find out....fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 TPMS would be of little interest to me but ESC is something I would want - just in case - and it's omission on the part of any converter on the grounds of cost savings would be scandalous. I have my own TPMS that has served me well for over 50 years - combination of mark one eyeball and size ten boot - but I do wonder how ever have we all managed for so long without TPMS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Derek Uzzell - 2015-03-01 8:51 AM Pete-B This link mentions the mandatory requirement for a TPMS system http://www.mytyres.co.uk/TPMS-Info.html and states that "From the 1st November 2014 all motor vehicles and mobile homes in the EU must have a TPMS at initial registration.” ....digging through the various versions of EU law is pretty messy (now made worse by the fact that a good few of the EU vehicle regulations have now been replaced by UNECE regulations), but I think that is a little misleading. I think the detailed introduction date for TPMS applies to M1 vehicles (which would apply to a motorcaravan, but not to a van or chassis), hence, most of the Sevel derivatives, whilst having TPMS available, currently list it as an option. It is thus interesting to conjecture whether a motorcaravan should currently be fitted with TPMS, BUT, one bit of information I definitely can glean is that the VCA (as it often does for dates for technical changes), is going to apply a derogation to the date for the implementation of TPMS, to October 2015 for "single stage" vehicles, and February 2016 for "multi-stage" vehicles (and I assume a motorcaravan will fall in the latter - the conversion being a second stage). So, TPMS is likely to be coming as standard, but I wouldn't necessarily expect it fitted from the factory today. (as for derogations, some time ago I posted on a story in ProMobil, which stated that Germany had granted a derogation to the end of 2016 against the requirement for Euro 6 on registration of motorcaravans. I have no way of checking the veracity of this, though it wouldn't surprise me - nor would a similar approach in the UK - or there is likely to be a large number of unsold Euro 5+ 'vans). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete-B Posted March 1, 2015 Author Share Posted March 1, 2015 Just had a reply from Simon Coley one of the tech guys on their forum and he tells me that no Swift motor home in 2015 will be specified with TPMS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Good, Thats as clear as mud then, as with most things emanating from the EU. *-) Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 I forget now where I saw it but this system will be part of the Mot and the costs involved in getting any faults sorted made my hair stand on end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Blimey. with all this extra 'Stuff' having to be checked at MOT time, MOT's are going to cost a fortune. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Robinhood - 2015-03-01 1:47 PM Derek Uzzell - 2015-03-01 8:51 AM Pete-B This link mentions the mandatory requirement for a TPMS system http://www.mytyres.co.uk/TPMS-Info.html and states that "From the 1st November 2014 all motor vehicles and mobile homes in the EU must have a TPMS at initial registration.” ....digging through the various versions of EU law is pretty messy (now made worse by the fact that a good few of the EU vehicle regulations have now been replaced by UNECE regulations), but I think that is a little misleading. I think the detailed introduction date for TPMS applies to M1 vehicles (which would apply to a motorcaravan, but not to a van or chassis), hence, most of the Sevel derivatives, whilst having TPMS available, currently list it as an option. It is thus interesting to conjecture whether a motorcaravan should currently be fitted with TPMS, BUT, one bit of information I definitely can glean is that the VCA (as it often does for dates for technical changes), is going to apply a derogation to the date for the implementation of TPMS, to October 2015 for "single stage" vehicles, and February 2016 for "multi-stage" vehicles (and I assume a motorcaravan will fall in the latter - the conversion being a second stage). So, TPMS is likely to be coming as standard, but I wouldn't necessarily expect it fitted from the factory today. (as for derogations, some time ago I posted on a story in ProMobil, which stated that Germany had granted a derogation to the end of 2016 against the requirement for Euro 6 on registration of motorcaravans. I have no way of checking the veracity of this, though it wouldn't surprise me - nor would a similar approach in the UK - or there is likely to be a large number of unsold Euro 5+ 'vans). Information about the VCA derogations can be found here http://www.dft.gov.uk/vca/additional/files/legislation/information-notices/latest-information-notice.pdf I have a French-built Fiat Ducato X290-based motorhome on order. I don’t expect it to come with TPMS and Rapido does not offer TPMS as an option. I expect it to come with ESC, but only because Rapido offered ESC (including Traction+) as a cost-option and I opted for it. VCA is a UK agency, and I would not expect their derogations to affect Fiat Ducato X290s marketed in, say, Germany. So it might be the case that someone buying an X290-based motorhome in Germany in 2015 might get TPMS without having to opt for it. If a motorhome manufacturer’s advertising literature does not categorically confirm that a vehicle’s standard specification includes features like TPMS and ESC, it would be wise to believe that it does not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve928 Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Just a short update on the X2/90 TPMS (well, the Peugeot implementation thereof anyway) having lived with it for 4 or 5 months. Plus points: - you can move wheels around on the vehicle without upsetting it e.g. swap fronts to rear etc. should you so desire. - the wheels are not coded to the vehicle so you can fit entirely different wheels and the system will accept them automatically. You could swap between summer and winter wheelsets without having to pay for a diagnostic and coding session. Also, with sender valves going for around £15 on Ebay a duff valve is not such an expensive event. Minus points: - despite the receiver units seeming to be one at each hub I'm told that the system doesn't tell you which wheel has a pressure problem. TBC, as this seems strange. - the alarm trigger pressures are not user-configurable. In fact at the moment nobody seems to know how to set/change them! Many folks are driving around with permanent TPMS alarms because the system doesn't like the converter's recommended 55psi front pressure. Mine is fine luckily :-D It would be interesting to know if the Fiat system differs in any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Apparently the TPMS valve used on Ducatos is a Schrader “EZ-sensor” and I would expect that also to be true for Boxers/Relays. Casual on-line research shows that the EZ-sensor is designed to be ‘programmable’, but (as you point out) its programming is not intended to be easily user-configurable. The Ducato manual provides an overview of the TPMS system but does not go into fine technical detail. Presumably the valve will be programmed in the Italian factory to conform to the inflation pressures for the tyre specifications shown in the manual which (for ‘camping’ vehicles with CP-marked tyres) will be 5.0-5.5bar (front axle) and 5.5-6.0bar (rear axle) depending on tyre size and load index. I’m surprised by your comment about the 3.8bar/55psi front-axle tyre pressure, as I’d expect the recommended pressures for Boxers/Relays fitted with CP-marked tyres to match Ducato’s. (55psi also seems to conflict with Al-Ko’s pressure suggestions for CP-marked tyres.) While there must be a good deal of latitude in the TPMS system to deal with changes in ambient temperature and tyre warm-up during driving, it should be anticipated perhaps that, if a vehicle manufacturer recommends a 70+psi tyre-pressure, a tyre set to 55psi may trigger a TPMS alarm. This link may be helpful regarding sensor programming http://www.andrewpage.com/pdfs/TPMS_Guide_2014.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve928 Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Regarding tyre pressures on my own van, Bailey (as final stage converter) affix a tyre pressure label to the LH door frame completely covering any existing label. It specificies the tyre model and size i.e. Michelin Agilis Camping 215/70R15CP and states 55psi front and 80psi rear for my 3500MAM van at full load. Al-Ko do not agree with these pressures and I have an email from them recommending 72psi front and 80 rear for their Peugeot chassis. This disagreement does put the end user in a difficult position. My own decision is to use the pressures recommended by the motorhome manufacturer in the last label to be affixed to the completed vehicle. Schrader produce their own TPMS management tool called 'TPMS Eurodiag' which connects via the OBD2 socket and is said to be compatible with 63 vehicle makes. It seems (and this is second hand as my own van has no problem with the lower front pressures) that the diagnostic software currently in use by Peugeot dealers does not have the capability to adjust the pressure trigger values and that Peugeot are 'working on a solution'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Has any owner of a Bailey motorhome bothered to ask the converter to explain why the 55psi front-axle tyre pressure has been specified when it conflicts with Al-Ko’s recommendation? http://www.al-ko.co.uk/edit/files/handbooks/amc-handbook.pdf I’m not saying that 55psi inappropriate, but it’s lower than any front-tyre pressure recommended for any X290 variant whatever the size and type of tyre fitted to it. As a hypothetical Bailey owner, my immediate reaction would be that although 72psi (the standard front-tyre pressure recommendation for X290s with 215/70 R15CP tyres) might result in a hard ride, 55psi is worryingly low. I certainly wouldn’t just accept that Bailey’s label was correct (in the same way that I did not accept the wrong tyre-pressure labelliing on my Hobby) unless Bailey provided a very convincing reason for me to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 .....the Bailey handbook is slightly more forthcoming (see the picture below). It would appear that the (Bailey) sticker on Steve's 'van is showing 55psi, rather than the example shown in the manual. The example (at 4.1 bar) I'd probably consider only adequate for an 1800kg front axle loading. It would be interesting to know what Steve's front axle is plated at. I suspect it is plated at 1900kg, and the actual load in place is, of course, likely to be less than this. At an actual front axle load of 1700kg, and taking the Bailey advice literally, then 55psi might well be considered OK, though if the front axle is plated at anything above that 1700kg, then 55psi recommended is, IMO, rather questionable (regardless of running weight).. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve928 Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 I believe that all the Baileys have the same maximum axle ratings i.e. 1850 front and 2000 rear, those being the standard figures for a Boxer/Al-Ko 3500kg chassis. The models that are then plated up to a MAM of 3850kg (which IIRC are the 730, the now-deleted 750 and 760, and the 765) retain those same axle ratings so could never realistically reach that higher MAM in real world conditions. My sticker does differ from the 625's that you show. It seems that Bailey vary the recommended front pressure by model and front axle weight when loaded to MRO. The 625 has a published front axle weight at MRO of 1624kg while the same figure for my 740 is 1485kg. Presumably they would do the same for the rear axle were it not for Michelin's blanket 80psi policy. As Bailey only fit Michelin tyres and vary recommended pressure according to the axle weight of individual models, to my mind it would seem unlikely that they haven't derived these figures in conjunction with Michelin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 ....yes, 1900 was my bad. ;-) My own opinion, (which I was trying to support above), is that the 55psi might well be adequate for your (real world) usage, since your front axle weight will be somewhat below your max axle loading. Nonetheless, some people have managed to reach and exceed that max. loading on certain Ducato configurations, and it seems to me to be sailing "a bit close to the wind" for Bailey to quote in this manner. Personally, if I knew my real rear axle loading, I'd choose not to run at the 5.5 bar, either, but adjust downwards somewhat in line with the quoted pressure profile for use on the front (an approach I don't recommend to anyone - they should make their own judgement, but I have historical quotes from Michelin for CP rated tyres on which they did just that - they now offer the blanket 80psi for rears). I'm working from published Conti tables for similar (CP) tyres which make the pressures appear to be at the low end of requirement, but maybe the Michelin figures are just slightly different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve928 Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Robinhood - 2015-05-19 3:12 PM Personally, if I knew my real rear axle loading, I'd choose not to run at the 5.5 bar, either, but adjust downwards somewhat in line with the quoted pressure profile for use on the front Indeed ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 I cannot find a link to load tables for Michelin but here is a link to Continentals data... Link. The load data for 215/70 R 15 CP tyres is the last row of pages 72 and 73. It may be easier to print the 2 pages rather than try and follow across the row. You will need to look at the row marked 'FA S' for both axles as your MH is front wheel drive and 'RA S' is only for rear driven axles. I agree with other comments that I would run at suitable pressures for actual axle loads but that is purely my opinion and no recommendation whatsoever! I do for our MH but it is on larger tyres and also RWD so my pressures will be irrelevant. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashpark Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 Steve928 - 2015-05-18 4:06 PM Just a short update on the X2/90 TPMS (well, the Peugeot implementation thereof anyway) having lived with it for 4 or 5 months. Also, with sender valves going for around £15 on Ebay a duff valve is not such an expensive event. Interesting, wish my local Peugeot dealer knew that. When I picked up my MH the TPMS warning light was on, the dealer said they could either hold on to it for a fix or I could arrange a visit to a Peugeot garage myself (as this was not a problem with the convertion *-) ). I decided on the latter and the local (large) Peugeot garage diagnosed two faulty sensors. It took them two days to source replacements and several hours trying to figure out how to reset the TPMS in the CPU afterwards. In the course of things I asked the converter for an opinion on the tyre pressure issue, unsurprisingly they referred me Peugeot and issued a disclaimer on anyone reducing the specified tyre pressures. As much as I was able to get from Peugeot, in the way of technical advice, was the TPMS is pre-set and in my case that's at 5 bar in the front wheels and 5.5 bar in the rear wheels. So much for all the advice about weighbridges and checking axle weights. I'll just learn to live with the bumpy ride ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 The Bailey motorhome TPMS issue was also discussed here https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Tyre-sensors-on-a-Bailey-740-2015/38386/ I don’t know how much reduction in pressure the TPMS system fitted to Peugot Boxers will tolerate before a warning is given, but I’m confident that it’s much more than the odd one or two psi. It may well be that a Boxer’s TPMS sensor set to 5.0 bar (72.5psi) will not ‘alarm’ until the pressure reduces below 60psi to allow for changes in temperature, inaccuracy of tyre gauges, etc. As I suggested in the above link, experimentation would be very easy - inflate the tyre to the advised 5.0bar/5.5bar pressure, then reduce the pressure gradually until the TPMS system produces an alarm. If it transpired that a reduction of, say, 10psi were ‘acceptable’ to the Boxer’s TPMS, this could allow tyre pressures to be reduced to match weighbridge-obtained axle-weight figures should a motorhome’s owner so wish. If you find that your (Auto-Sleepers Nuevo?) motorhome has a particularly harsh ride at 5.0bar(front and 5.5bar(rear) pressures, it’s quite likely that - if you weighed the vehicle and found that you could safely lower its tyre pressures by a significant amount - you could do this without triggering the TPMS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashpark Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 Thanks Derek, yes it's an A/S Neuvo. I would be happy to reduce the psi but another owner of the same vehicle has reported that he tried that and has been unable to get the warning to turn off, even with the tyres reinflated to the original settings. I've been pretty disappointed with the technical advice on this from Peugeot, they originally suggested I ask at my local Peugeot service centre :-| . My request to them was for information on the operation of the system and tolerances, above is what I got after three emails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve928 Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 For what it's worth I got the tyres on my Bailey down to 50psi front and 53 psi rear without triggering a TPMS alarm. For obvious reasons I didn't want, or need, to go any lower and only ran them at this pressure on a short journey as a TMPS experiment to try and see what threshold had been set. One point to bear in mind is that the system seems to take approximately 3 miles to register and accept or reject changes. - I have second set of wheels without TPMS valves and if I put them on the van then I can drive 3 miles before a TPMS warning. - when replacing this set with the OE wheels then the alarm only cancels the same 3 miles later. I presume that in the case of a genuine deflation the system will react somewhat more quickly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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