The glowing dash lights...

[TheFrenchConnection]

We have the beginning of the glowing warning light problem just weeks before the start of our planned three month trip to Spain and Portugal. Currently the airbag light (Just visible with the ignition off, glowing with it on) and occasionally an unidentified white one to its left.

 

I've read about the cures and the updated exchange versions but nothing is likely to be possible in the time frame.

 

Is there any reason why we can't treat it as an annoying distraction or is it likely to cause problems?

Thanks for any advice

[colin]

Ours have had a faint glow for years, I would check with Fiat as to if they will give you a free repair, explain your situation and hope they will sort you out either before your trip or on your return.

[TeamRienza]

I have had two airbag light faults.

 

1. Faintly glowing along with (I think) handbrake. This necessitated a replacement instrument panel which was replaced under warranty.

 

2. Brightly glowing airbag and seatbelt lights. This was a faulty ecu. This was replaced as a ‘goodwill’ gesture by Fiat.

 

In the case of the second fault, my Fiat professional dealer advised that the airbag would not function until the ecu was replaced. However they did not say “do not drive”. Just as well since I had 2 trips of 100 miles or so home until the part was available necessitating the second 100 miles.

 

Probably worth checking with a fiat dealer. Bear in mind we have driven for probably the best part of 100 years without airbags. Increased risk? Yes, acceptable? Your call.

 

Davy

[Derek Uzzell]

TheFrenchConnection - 2019-11-23 4:06 PM

 

...Is there any reason why we can't treat it as an annoying distraction or is it likely to cause problems?

 

 

The ‘dim warning lights’ problem reared its head not long after Ducato X290 vehicles were introduced in mid-2014 and, provided that an afflicted Ducato was still within its 2-year warranty period, Fiat would happily authorise replacement of the complete instrument-cluster. But your Challenger is 2015 vintage.

 

You should bring the fault to Fiat’s attention without delay, as the longer you leave it the further out of warranty your Ducato will be and the less likely that Fiat will make a good-will gesture.

 

My 2015 Ducato exhibited this fault early on and I asked a Fiat Professional service manager much the same question as yours, as I was due to go abroad within a couple of weeks. He said that the fault could only worsen and shortly after it did, with the cruise-control light permanently illuminating. This, of course, is the difficulty as, if ‘important’ warning lights start illuminating, you won’t know whether this shows a genuine fault or not.

 

I’ve not read anything to suggest that the fault is a genuine ’safety’ issue, or that it develops to such an extent that the instruments themselves (speedometer etc.) are affected. If you can’t get the problem rectified before your trip, there doesn’t seem much you can do other than to go and hope. Me, I’d take the risk.

 

[TheFrenchConnection]

Thank you everyone, we'll carry on regardless as the thought of postponing the trip which we wait each year for doesn’t bear thinking about!

 

Sadly the words 'customer' and 'service' rarely occur in the same sentence in France but we'll give it a try and start by emailing our local agents - who have just fixed the airbag warning light fault at great expense. I'm not particularly disposed towards Fiat at the moment!

 

We had our old 1992 Ducato-powered Hymer for 7 years without any problems - isn't progress wonderful.

[TheFrenchConnection]

As an aside, and possibly because I'm a bit of à Luddite, I think the main problem is the complexity of modern vehicles - many features seem to be an answer in search of a question.

Our new Renault Kadjar with 200 km on the clock is booked in to discover why its emergency assist braking warning light (whatever that is) is iluminated. My 40-year-old MGB also goes wrong sometimes, the difference is that I can usually fix it with a half-inch and nine-sixteenth spanner from the boot.

 

Ah, progress.

[AndyB]

Hi,

 

See my recent thread about Fiat Customer Service and replacement Airbag ECU and instrument cluster, both of which will be replaced free of charge, following diagnostics.

 

Customer Services are based in Italy and I can’t see why you’ll be treated any differently because you are in France.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[TheFrenchConnection]

Thanks Andy B, do you have any contact details for Fiat's Italian customer services? It's getting past the local agents that's usually the problem.

[AndyB]

Hi,

 

Use this number to contact them 00800 3428 1111

 

The website is Fiat camper assist.

 

They advise to get diagnostics done by Fiat, but not to get repairs done until authorised by them as due to costings in the event of them authorising replacement.

 

All the best

 

Andy

[sean.clarke]

My old 2012 AutoTrail had the "dim instrument" light issue which Fiat repaired FoC, so it certainly existed pre X290.

[Solwaybuggier]

 

When it arose our current 2015 x290, the nearest Fiat dealer said their experience was that while at one time Fiat generally authorised out of warranty repairs a goodwill basis, latterly they had been far less flexible and tended to offer only a contribution to the cost. On the basis that the Fiat replacement is way more expensive than the Cartronix replacement option, we opted for the latter.

 

As I recall, Cartronix do a next day return by post, or replacement on the spot if you can get it to them. Maybe worth exploring? Not sure about the cost of getting it to them from Charente, but I think it would be back pretty quickly. Or does anyone offer the same service in France?

[spospe]

I have been told that the root cause of the dim lights showing, is damp on the back of the instrument panel allowing tracking between components. Taking the panel out of the van and drying it is said to relive the problem.

 

If your van has a normal instrument panel for a euro 5 van, then just four screws hold the panel in place and it can be easily got out. Worth a try and costs nothing,

 

 

[onecal]

Yes poorly sealed instrument cluster does allow moisture ingress and cause major problems

I am informed the updated replacement ones are a little better!

Definitely should be replaced FOC, as at this stage really not acceptable

[Derek Uzzell]

A Ducato X250/X290’s instrument-cluster has no anti-moisture sealing, but (as should be plain from the photos here) the cluster is positioned in the dashboard where moisture is unlikely to get in.

 

https://www.lockwoodinternational.co.uk/media/wysiwyg/instructions/Fiat/C120_C1179_C1181_etc_8329-8332_Fiat_Ducato_etc.pdf

 

Although removing a problematic Ducato cluster and cooking it in a warm oven MIGHT resurrect it temporarily, the primary cause of Ducato X290 cluster faults related to the cluster’s build quality. This was proven when the cluster of early X290s was replaced on a like-for-like basis and the replacement (or even replacements) also failed after a short while.

 

This Cartronix webpage

 

https://cartronix.co.uk/product/fiat-ducato-mk3-van-and-motor-home-instrument-cluster-dash-repair/

 

cites inadequate components as the primary cause of the problems.

 

If the revised specification Ducato instrument-cluster is “little better” than the earlier cluster, as I said in this February 2019 forum thread

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/MOT-failed-due-to-dash-error-lights-partially-showing-/51415/

 

I’ve yet to read of lots of revised-specification X290 cluster failings. (I note that the February 2019 thread also mentioned damp and keeping the cluster warm.)

[onecal]

Yes Derek the clusters are of very poor quality build.

Moisture is the biggest enemy to poorly sealed electronics and dry joints.

It has worked many times for myself to heat them up disconnect and re connect, but not for long, They end up having to be replaced I am afraid

Yes you are quite correct the new ones are a little better (sealed) but not a lot to be honest with many subsequent failures.

Sometime a full rebuild with better components (privately) is the only way around this problem.(£150 to £250) (€175 to €292) depending on damage .

But if it's under warranty let your dealer sort it for you.

Not really good enough in this day and age using very poor products

[TheFrenchConnection]

Thank you everybody for the helpful replies.

 

Going via the helpline number a very helpful lady in Italy is coordinating with Fiat France once I have an

appointment for the diagnostics.

 

However after a conversation with Cartronix I think I'll go that route instead on our return from Spain. The reasoning is that the diagnostics look to be around €150, with no guarantee that Fiat will agree to replace the cluster - which might fail again anyway. Add the cost of refitting (simple enough but labour is €88 per hour) plus no guarantee that Fiat will cough up and the guaranteed £150 Cartronix repair looks great value even with the cost of postage to and from the UK.

 

The glow is very dim so we'll head off to Spain and live with it until we return, when the unit can be sent to the UK by economic courier rather than expensive express service needed to dodge any Christmas post delays and the French national strike due next week.

 

As a belt and braces move I've brought the cluster indoors into the warm. How warm should it be? It's sitting on the mantle over the log burner at the moment.

 

Thanks again for all the replies.

[Derek Uzzell]

onecal - 2019-11-25 4:34 PM

 

Yes Derek the clusters are of very poor quality build...

 

Could you provide more details, please, on how and/or where the revised-specification Ducato instrument clusters are sealed?

 

This YouTube video describes disassembly of a Ducato cluster

 

 

and, as far as I’m aware, the procedure used to end up with a completely removed PCB is the same for both ‘old’ and ‘new’ clusters.

[onecal]

Hi Derek

Very poorly soldered joints (dry joints) and the board itself in many cases damaged from condensation (tracking) with subsequent pointer motor failures. Procedure may look the same the quality of some components may not.

Sealing of the LCD screens are poor again sometimes damaged by condensation, as does also by smoke,replacment with a new screen often the best option.

Mike

Drying out and gentle heat does help "sometimes" Maybe as you have only a dim glowing light at the moment hopefully it may help until you get a permenant repair.Worth a try!

[Charles]

I wonder what the cheap components are. The only things that I can think of that fail slowly are capacitors, maybe damp will cause them to conduct dc a little, and LEDs don't need much current to light up.

 

Anyway we had ours replaced under warranty in about 2016, been ok since.

[onecal]

Glad yours is still working as it's not always the case. Did you get an answer as to why yours failed?

Condensation, poor components and poor manufacturing as in poor conections is the main cause of failure in instrument clusters.

[Charles]

No, didn't ask. The mechanic that changed it probably wouldn't know anyway. Technicians don't tend to tell the customer too much information about faults because they can turn on you and hang you with it. I never did say much to them when repairing supermarket systems B-)

[Derek Uzzell]

For some light reading, there’s a 2012-to-2017 3-page discussion about this issue in the Ducato section of the Fiat Forum, with a director of Cartronix commenting near the top of the 2nd page.

 

https://www.fiatforum.com/ducato/295479-faulty-dash-warning-lights-2.html

 

 

[onecal]

Thanks for the update Derek Yes I agree voltage spikes can but not always do the damage where as condensation will eventually.The clue is in the article as to repair over the winter months Poor joints and very poor sealing ( board spray insulation) or lack of .

For all that have this issue have it repaired as soon as possible hopefully under warranty

Of course always ask the technician what caused the fault in the first place. You will find some are honest and if they are not fore-coming you may have the wrong person doing the repair in the first instance.

Strange has there been no recall to date on these clusters ?

[Berniea]

I have had three - yes three, instrument clusters fitted to two different vans. My 2014 Adria had two clusters fitted both under Fiat warranty, and my 2014 Niesmann and Bischoff on an Iveco chassis had one fitted under the retailers warranty.

Having had the first one replaced I then paid particular attention to the other panels and at £1,000 per panel, I'm pleased I did.

[onecal]

Hi Bernie

Thanks for that, hopefully no more issues with them