ken the kontiki Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 I've emailed Truma about this ongoing problem this morning but perhaps someone on the forum might also have some thoughts.Have also posted the same on Swift Talk. 2008 Kontiki 669 - in December 2014, the red cabled element failed so that was replaced. The white cabled element was fine but we had it replaced whilst the boiler was out "just in case". May 2015 - red element failed again and was replaced by the mobile engineer that did the first replacement in 12/2014 and his costs were covered by Truma. August 2015 - red element failed again. Mobile engineer's cost covered by Truma. Truma also suggested we needed a new 240v PCB which we paid for. January 2016 - red element has gone again. Mobile engineer that has done the replacements to date now won't come out to us as we've moved some 80 miles and 2 hours away from him - fair enough but means we will have to find a nother Truma service guy to take on the replacement AND deal with Truma and the previous mobile guy re. paperwork as for sure we won't be paying to have another element fitted. So as "we" and Truma seem to have exhausted the obvious causes, the PCB being the main one, has anyone any thoughts as to why we can't get a red element to last more than a few months when the white one has been fine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 As I’m sure you know, a Truma Trumatic C-6002EH air/water heater has a pair of 230V/AC heating elements integrated into the appliance’s central heat-exchanger. The elements are diametrically opposite each other and each element has a maximum output of 900W. A C-6002EH can heat air and/or water via a 230V/AC power supply and there’s a choice of two control-panel settings - 900W or 1800W. I recall being told by a Truma technician (a long time ago) that the heating elements always operate together and not separately. Thus at the 900W setting each element will produce 450W of power, and at the 1800W setting each element will produce 900W. I don’t KNOW that this is correct, but it makes sense as otherwise just one half of the appliance’s internals would be being heated with the potential for all sorts of resultant problems. (The reason I mention this is just in case it’s suggested that the ‘red-cabled element’ is doing much more heating than the ‘white-cabled element’ and that’s why it’s failing.) I can’t offer any credible explanation for the repeated failures. Your heater was (presumably) OK for 6 years or so and then the ‘red’ element failed. The red and the ‘white’ elements were replaced as a precautionary measure, but 5 months later the red element failed again and was replaced. 3 months after that the red element failed once more and was replaced, but this time the 230V/AC printed-circuit-board was also replaced. Now (after another 5 months) the red element has again failed. Obviously you’ll need to wait for Truma’s response, but it seems to me that you may need to insist that they have your motorhome into their HQ in Derby and fully dismantle and bench-test your heater to try to discover what’s provoking these repeated failures. This is not something Truma are keen to do (as much as anything because they have few staff with the necessary skills/experience nowadays), and I know it’s over 180 miles from Camarthen to Derby But it may be the only realistic way forward unless you are prepared to have another Truma Service Dealer more local to you work on your heater and hope that whatever has been causing the element failures is either identified and fixed, or another replacement element does not fail in the short term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken the kontiki Posted January 18, 2016 Author Share Posted January 18, 2016 Many thanks as always Derek for your input. Indeed, Truma have replied this afternoon and have offered to either i) inspect the boiler if I send it to them (I kid you not) or ii) have the MH at Foston for them to take the boiler apart. Option 2 looks good on paper but as you say, it's a 360 mile round trip (assuming they only have the MH for a day) and I'd need to take at least 2 days off work unpaid. Fuel alone would be £80+ and I'd have to factor in maybe an overnight stop somewhere. I've asked Truma if they have any employee/s in the field that are competent and knowledgeable with the C series boilers or any of their service partners that are equally competent (in theory they should all be clued up). Truma have told me the elements have a two year warranty so I could just keep replacing the red one every so often under warranty - Truma will cover the labour costs for whoever takes the work on. However, this doesn't get us any closer to the cause to the element/s blowing. As an aside but historical, when I spoke to Truma after the first failure, they told me a faulty PCB would NOT cause the elements to pop. Strange that they then suggested our mobile guy replace the PCB some months on. The 240v side of the C series is very simple - two elements and a PCB. So what would Truma actually investigate if we went to them as most avenues seem to have been explored. Will post any updates once I've heard from Truma again and give some more thought to their option #2 offer above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 The manufacturer is offering to investigate in detail at their premises and so isn't it reasonable for you to put yourself out a bit to facilitate this? I suppose I'm not affected by having to take time off work because I'm retired, and taking leave is a nuisance to you, but it's important not to be ungrateful for what they have done and are willing to do isn't it? I suggest you do need to let them see the complete installation in your MH because that might allow a proper diagnosis to be made at last. A thought about 900w operation; if both elements are working at half throttle, as it were, this has to be because of voltage reduction or more likely time switching by the pcb - in other words the elements get switched on and off repeatedly so that they are effectively on for only half of the time. Do you mostly operate on 900 or 1800w? Not obvious why one element should consistently fail but assuming there is no manufacturing problem with the red ones (no reports oflots of other people suffering red side failures) and the elements are essentially the same, doesn't it have to be something to do with the different cable run or location within the space where the heater is installed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 There is a reasonable amount of on-line discussion about failure of Trumatic C-6002EH 230V heating elements. Received wisdom seems to be that red-cabled and white-cabled elements are identical ‘technically’. The only difference is said to be that the position of the elements in the appliance’s heat-exchanger means that one element’s power-cable (the red one) needs to be longer than the other. Although elements can be purchased separately, Truma apparently recommends that both elements be replaced if one element fails (presumably as a precautionary measure because of the work involved in accessing the elements). It would seem that failure of one element does not necessarily prevent the other element from operating, and it should be possible to identify element failure without dismantling the heater (Ken seems able to know that it’s the red-cabled element that’s failed again). No plausible explanation seems to be offered on-line as to the cause of element-failure – they just seem to do it... It’s perhaps not too surprising for element-failure to occur after 6 years, but three subsequent failures separated by just a few months ain’t right. There is an on-line observation that removing elements may require judicious use of brute force, so there’s the possibility that, when Ken’s heater was repaired in December 2014, internal damage occurred (within the heat-exchanger itself?) and this is provoking failure of replacement elements. Or (admittedly unlikely) there’s a batch of substandard elements out there and Ken has been very unlucky. Given the difficulties Ken faces regarding taking his motorhome to Truma HQ, - and Truma’s willingness to fund repairs - I’d be tempted to give it one more try, using a Trained Service Dealer nearer to home. (There seem to be a few in the Carmarthen area) https://www.truma.com/uk/en/home/dealer-search.php If the problem then reoccurred within the replacement element’s 2-year warranty period, the Truma Service Dealer would be in a better position than Ken to progress the issue with Truma(UK) and, if necessary, to send the heater to Foston for attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 Would it be practical to get the heater couriered to Foston? Couriers are all over the place these days, and the better ones (DPD etc) have excellent on-line tracking facilities, so you can watch its progress. There is also a network of local pick-up and depositing locations, often at small shops etc, though I don't know if the boxed Truma would be too bulky or heavy to take advantage of these. Still, looking at the cost and inconvenience of actually visiting Foston, it may be the best way to go - unless prohibitively costly. Truma may be able to help with weight and parcel size to help getting a price idea. Would they even agree to arrange the pick-up from you, as they must use couriers from time to time. They might charge extra to return, but the couriers now seem so cheap compared to other methods I wonder if even that would make it uneconomical. Any help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken the kontiki Posted January 19, 2016 Author Share Posted January 19, 2016 Firstly, we're not "ungrateful" of Truma's offer and, having juggled work commitments, intend to visit Truma sometime in February - a lot depends on Truma's commitments and the shift patterns of SWMBO next month. In the next few days, we should know when we're going. Now the strange thing - we have an energy meter fitted to the Truma 240v connection which measures watts, amps, voltage, units used, cost etc.. On a good day with everything working, the meter reads 1790w or 890w. Now that the red element has blown, the meter reads 880w on the boiler's 1800w setting and 440w on its 900w setting. This was mentioned to Truma last year and they couldn't explain these figures as if one element has blown, surely you'd get c.900w or nothing? Having said that, Apuljack Engineering (via Swift Talk) have a few ideas which they will no doubt share with us all shortly. Just to confirm that it's definitely the red element that's blown as its resistance is 1100 ohm and the white one is at 60 ohm. A healthy element is indeed 60 ohm. Whilst getting the element replaced isn't an issue, it's what's causing it to blow every 5 months that is. Thanks for all the info so far and will keep you all updated as and when. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 ken the kontiki - 2016-01-19 4:41 PM ... as if one element has blown, surely you'd get c.900w or nothing? Just to confirm that it's definitely the red element that's blown as its resistance is 1100 ohm and the white one is at 60 ohm. A healthy element is indeed 60 ohm. So the element has 'Shorted' (internally?) and not 'Blown'! Otherwise as you say the good element would not work either. Where the elements disconnected when you measured their resistance as otherwise the circuitry may be influencing your readings? My theory was that the elements would be in series for 900 W and parallel for 1,800 W but I'm not totally sure now. Please let us know how you get on. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken the kontiki Posted January 19, 2016 Author Share Posted January 19, 2016 Good point Keith about the resistance. The readings were taken with the element cables inserted into the terminal block on the side of the boiler. Will turn everything off tonight, disconnect the red AND white cables and measure the resistance of each element. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken the kontiki Posted March 8, 2016 Author Share Posted March 8, 2016 Update - visited Truma HQ today and have had two new elements fitted. The red one was, as we suspected, knackered but the white one was ok. The white one was replaced as a precaution so that we now have two brand new elements. It transpires that up until a year or so ago, the recognised method of replacement was to remove the boiler and then with the fan hood off, simply pull the elements out. However, the removal process has changed as Truma were getting a fair few complaints of elements giving up prematurely. They now recommend that the heat exchanger is exposed so that you can see the external fins - I didn't see them do this but have had it explained. The new element is then inserted and the heat exchanger fins either side of the element are squeezed onto the element using very wide mole grips, so that there's contact the whole length of the element and heat exchanger. Changing them the "old" way can lead to hot spots and hence premature failure. Also learnt FWIW, that both elements are used in both 1800w and 900w operation. In 900w mode, the nominal supply voltage of say 230v, is halved so that each element receives just 115v. This is so the elements get equal usage. Prior to this, I thought that 900w was one element and 1800w was two elements. Total job took just over 3 hours and very professional throughout. Truma will, contrary to popular belief, carry out service and repair work in lieu of their approved service guys if you feel their HQ is more local to you or feel you need that extra bit of expertise - just be prepared to have to wait a few weeks to get booked in. So, happy days ahead and thanks to all the guys and girls at Truma for their help :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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