coach2000 Posted July 5, 2010 Share Posted July 5, 2010 I have just changed my motorhome for a 06 Fiat Ducato CI Cipro. On the vin plate I am sure it says it is a 3400Kg. On recieving my new log book today it has a taxation class of Private HGV applicable to vehicles over 3500Kg. I know this is cheaper to tax but I am wondering if this is wrong. If anyone has any ideas they would be most welcome. Clive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 5, 2010 Share Posted July 5, 2010 Assuming your recollection of what is in the V5C is correct, PHGV is wrong. It should be taxed as PLG (private light goods) and it will cost a bit more. Probably wise to get it sorted out, but I'd suggest you check the other details, including the reg No and VIN, to make sure you have the correct V5C for your vehicle. Then send V5C off to DVLA with correction at Section 7, probably with a photo of the VIN plate as evidence, keeping a copy of both. It may take a while to come back! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coach2000 Posted July 5, 2010 Author Share Posted July 5, 2010 Brian, as you do I think it is wrong after looking on the DVLA site. The V5c details are correct to the vehicle and it would look as though it has been like this from new. Thanks, Clive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted July 6, 2010 Share Posted July 6, 2010 Before you do anything regarding your tax, I'd suggest contacting Fiat and double checking what the chassis was registered as with them after it had been converted (it should have been done to activate the original warranty). It may simply be that it was an uprated chassis originally and the converter downplated it when they converted it but didn't alter it's classification, or the VIN plate has been produced wrongly ... unusual, not not impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowan Lee Posted July 7, 2010 Share Posted July 7, 2010 Can I suggest that you take the vehicle to a weighbridge before you do anything else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hymer634 Posted July 7, 2010 Share Posted July 7, 2010 Have you checked for a 2nd VIN plate - fitted by the conversion manufacturer ? This might show a larger capacity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coach2000 Posted July 7, 2010 Author Share Posted July 7, 2010 Mel B. I rang Fiat and am even more confused. They give me a different registration date in 2005 and told me it would have been re-registered by the converter, and just to confuse things more it seems that a 2006 model was uprated to 3800kg. I have spoken to Auto-trail today as it seems they are the UK agents for CI and I am waiting for them to get back to me. Rowan Lee, I will do this before and if I alter anything. Hymer 634 I will have a look for another plate tomorrow. Thank you for your replies and I will update if I find an answer. Clive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coach2000 Posted July 9, 2010 Author Share Posted July 9, 2010 Well Autotrail did not get back to me, I will not chase them. I found a 2nd vin plate. ! is metal and under the bonnet. The 2nd is in the footwell and is a silver sticker. The weights on both are slightly different. The sticker is a Trigano weight plate. I will try to upload a picture of these. There are 4 weights on each if any one can explain the meanings of each. Clive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted July 9, 2010 Share Posted July 9, 2010 The first figure is the maximum authorised mass (MAM), this is the maximum weight you can legally carry. The second figure is the train weight, ie the maximum total weight of your van and anything you are towing. The third and fourth are your maximum front and rear axle weights respectively. I can't quite make out the first figure on your Trigano (2nd) plate - it looks like 3400kg, but your second figure is 5400kg, so Trigano seem to have downrated your chassis train weight when they converted it which is really weird! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted July 9, 2010 Share Posted July 9, 2010 I suspect the Trigano (CI's parent company) plate downgrade for the Gross Train Weight could be due to a chassis extension for the Motorhome conversion. As opposed to the Fiat plate where a Towbarwould be fitted to the original chassis. Both plates confirm your Taxation class is wrong & should be PLG. If stopped by VOSA or other Authorities they may not take a lienient view, deeming it your responsibility to notify DVLA of the error. Unfortunately, it will mean the higher cost Road Fund Licence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coach2000 Posted July 9, 2010 Author Share Posted July 9, 2010 Hi Mel, The sticker which is the top picture is the Trigano one. The figure you could not make out is 3400. This is the Fiat plate. Flicka I still do not understand the 3800 taxation bit. Because when the vehicle is fully loaded it would be over 3500kg which I would have thought would have placed it in the HGV bracket weightwise. Clive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted July 9, 2010 Share Posted July 9, 2010 coach2000 - 2010-07-09 10:52 PM Hi Mel, The sticker which is the top picture is the Trigano one. The figure you could not make out is 3400. This is the Fiat plate. Flicka I still do not understand the 3800 taxation bit. Because when the vehicle is fully loaded it would be over 3500kg which I would have thought would have placed it in the HGV bracket weightwise. Clive. Hi Clive Found this spec on another site for Fiat CI Cipro F55, is it the same as yours, as the only other spec. is on a Mercedes (which is 3800kg MAM):- Weights and Measurements Maximum Authorized Weight Kg. (3400) Unladen mass (2922kgs) Maximum Width (2.23m) Maximum Length (6.74m) External Height (2.76m) Authorised Towing Weight Kg. (1200) From what I can see on the pales you posted, Both plates (top figure) show a MAM of 3400kg, with the Fiat plate showing a GTW (gross train weight) 5400kg & the Trigano showing 4600kg Both show Front Axle @ 1750kg Both show Rear Axle @ 1900kg If the vehicle is plated 3500kg MAM or UNDER it is taxation class PLG (Private Light Goods) If the vehicle is plated greater than 3500kg MAM, it is taxation class PHGV (Private Heavy Goods Vehicle) Your MAM (Maximum Allowable Mass - I think, was Gross Vehicle Weight) is 3400kg Note:- the 4600/5400 refers to Gross Train Weight - (or Maximum weight iallowable when towing A Trailer) Sorry to advise - If you are running over 3500kg, you are overweight & technically illegal. Please unload the Motorhome & drive to a Weigh-bridge. I would normally say weigh with full Fuel, Water tanks & Gas Bottles, but think you may need to determine the lowest figure. Weigh the whole van first, then drive forward so the front wheels are forward of the weigh-bridge & weigh again. That gives you the Rear Axle weight. Then deduct the Rear Axle weight from the first weigh to get the Front Axle weight. You will then be able to determine the "Running weight" & deduct that from the 3400kg to determine your "payload". Please note that you will need to know what fuel contents are. This will give you a base line to work from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 coach2000 - 2010-07-09 10:52 PM Hi Mel, The sticker which is the top picture is the Trigano one. The figure you could not make out is 3400. This is the Fiat plate. Flicka I still do not understand the 3800 taxation bit. Because when the vehicle is fully loaded it would be over 3500kg which I would have thought would have placed it in the HGV bracket weightwise. Clive. 3,400Kg is the maximum permissible mass (MAM) for your van. That is the maximum amount it is allowed to weigh fully laden. That is what the plates tell you, and will tell anyone else who check-weighs the van. Do make sure you do not exceed this figure, because you will invalidate your insurance, as well as being illegally loaded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 Hi Clive. We have a Merc based AT with a GVW of 3,800 kg. The only VIN plate is the original Merc one on the side of the drivers seat which says 3,500 kg. However under the bonnet, stuck to the bodywork above the R/H headlight, is a silver sticker which roughly says "Mercedes/AutoTrail VR Ltd. This vehicle has the camping car suspension option fitted and now has a GVW of 3,800 kg. Axle limits remain unchanged." I wonder whether either: a. Your vehicle has 'lost' such a sticker (possibly due to respray, etc) and is really a 3,800 kg chassis. Or... b. The dealer thought the Fiat chassis had the same GVW as the Merc based CI mentioned by a previous post (sorry can't remember who) and wrongly filled in the form as 3,800 kg when applying for the V5 from new. Can a Fiat dealer tell you what the chassis was rated at from new? My local Merc dealer did me a print out of the build spec of our chassis conforming it was fitted with camping car suspension from new and I know this info is also available for Ford's. Perhaps Nick Euroserve could help here if you PM'd him your VIN? Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 Keithl - 2010-07-10 11:00 AM Hi Clive. We have a Merc based AT with a GVW of 3,800 kg. The only VIN plate is the original Merc one on the side of the drivers seat which says 3,500 kg. However under the bonnet, stuck to the bodywork above the R/H headlight, is a silver sticker which roughly says "Mercedes/AutoTrail VR Ltd. This vehicle has the camping car suspension option fitted and now has a GVW of 3,800 kg. Axle limits remain unchanged." I wonder whether either: a. Your vehicle has 'lost' such a sticker (possibly due to respray, etc) and is really a 3,800 kg chassis. Or... b. The dealer thought the Fiat chassis had the same GVW as the Merc based CI mentioned by a previous post (sorry can't remember who) and wrongly filled in the form as 3,800 kg when applying for the V5 from new. Can a Fiat dealer tell you what the chassis was rated at from new? My local Merc dealer did me a print out of the build spec of our chassis conforming it was fitted with camping car suspension from new and I know this info is also available for Ford's. Perhaps Nick Euroserve could help here if you PM'd him your VIN? Keith. Hi Keith / Clive I can't see example A applying as Clive's earlier post shows both the Fiat & Trigano plates at 3400kg. example B - is a definate possibility, but the Dealer should have refered to the actual vehicle to confirm. But he maybe saw the opportunity to use that info to his advantage. (Wo, wash my mouth out thinking such a thing would happen). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coach2000 Posted July 10, 2010 Author Share Posted July 10, 2010 Flicka , thanks for that, it all seems a lot clearer now. I will go to the local weighbridge next time I am in the area. Keith I will have a call in a Fiat dealer and see if they can help. I have yet to ring DVLA and also to call in the VOSA test centre at Chadderton to get their official verdict and then I can alter if they say it is wrong.It looks like this may go on for a week or two yet before I resolve this. Clive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 Hi Clive, You did say in your third post that... coach2000 - 2010-07-07 9:55 PM ... and just to confuse things more it seems that a 2006 model was uprated to 3800kg. Clive. So there is still every possibility that it is indeed 3,800 kg. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 Keithl - 2010-07-10 11:22 PM Hi Clive, You did say in your third post that... coach2000 - 2010-07-07 9:55 PM ... and just to confuse things more it seems that a 2006 model was uprated to 3800kg. Clive. So there is still every possibility that it is indeed 3,800 kg. Keith. Well, there isn't really, is there. The vehicle carries two plates, one from Fiat, from when it left the fiat factory, and one from Trigano, who completed the conversion. Both give the MAM as 3,400kg. Where is the doubt? It is the V5C that is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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