Dave Newell Posted May 31, 2008 Share Posted May 31, 2008 Hi all, I've started a new thread because the main one is getting very ungainly in response times. I'd like to ask a few questions of those whose vehicles demonstrate this vibration/judder. Firstly what engine, transmission and wheel size does your vehicle have. Secondly what is your normal laden weight (the 'van of course not you personally). Thirdly could you try something out for me and let us know the results on this thread please. What I'd like you to do is find a hill where the judder in reverse occurs and then turn your 'van around and try pulling away uphill in second gear rather than first. Let us know if it judders doing this please. Thanks in advance to anyone who can help. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenewellhome Posted May 31, 2008 Share Posted May 31, 2008 No takers yet? D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenewellhome Posted June 1, 2008 Share Posted June 1, 2008 Where've all the judderers gone? Are you all out enjoying going forwards or have you all exchanged them? ;-) D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordThornber Posted June 1, 2008 Share Posted June 1, 2008 I may have some "inside" info from my nephew who works for Peugeot. I'll post it fully when I have all the details but he gave me the gist of it. He explained at length, (most of which went over my head), about a bolt in a flywheel (?), not being strong enough and this was chewing gearboxes. There is already a recall in place he says. Of course I'm not saying this is the judder cause but??? Hope I'm not adding to anyones woes. Martyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenewellhome Posted June 1, 2008 Share Posted June 1, 2008 Thanks Martyn. At the risk of sounding churlish though its not totally relevant to the actual thread. I'm trying to find out some information from owners of judderring vehicles and supposition, regardless of its source, is neither relevant or helpful. I don't own one of these vehicles and I'm not likely to be able to afford one before this issue is resolved. I'm simply trying to obtain information which might help lead to a solution so please, please only post here if you can give the information requested. Sorry to be so down on you Martyn and I'm sure you posted in good faith but lets keep it relevant. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordThornber Posted June 1, 2008 Share Posted June 1, 2008 No probs Dave Martyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenewellhome Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 Thanks for understanding Martyn ;-) . D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossko Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 Have just read this. we are off to N Yorkshire on Thurs for a few days so will hopefully be able to find a hill to test it on & will report back next Mon. We are on the yorks/lincs border & hills are in short supply I am afraid. thanks from all of us judderers for your interest in this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenewellhome Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 Surely not every X2/50 owner has either trade it in or buggered off with it :-S . Come on guys, help us to help you. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred grant Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 they as all bedgered off to broms apparenty. freds givin away is cider. fool!! alice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenewellhome Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 So can I take it from the lack of response that the juddering has ceased? D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred grant Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 yup f Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelly58 Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 Hi DaveI am still waiting for my van to go into Peugeot for the recall jobs to be done unforunately as we live in south lincs where there are no hills its as flat as a pancake around here,our next village is called Weston Hills but the only hills are mole hills. On our last trip to France I never thought to find a hill to reverse up so cannot say wheather it judders or not , but part of the recall work is to strip the gearbox and diff which is why they want the van for at least 3days we will be going to France againsoon so they will have to wait until we get back.Kelvyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenewellhome Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 Thanks Kelly, its good to know someone's reading this thread anyway. hope you get your 'van sorted out fully. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike P Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 Hello Dave, Sorry to take a while responding, had difficulty finding time to take the van out to a suitable hill; so much for retirement! Autotrail Cheyenne 630LB (2 berth lowline if it matters) sold to Autotrail from Fiat 14 June 2007, del to me March 2008. Tyre size 215/70/15 Normally runs about 3.4 tonnes Reverse judder seems to have got a bit worse (but not catastrophic, I think I described it as "containable). Bad trying to reverse off wet grass and on the tight 180 degree sweep up my 1 in 12 drive. Tried as you suggested starting in 2nd up a local 1 in 5, quite smooth, no problems, repeated several times. Did a more ambitious 3rd gear start up a 1 in 8, a bit laboured but still smooth. My conclusion; not 100% the fault of the DM flywheel, more likely effect of sloppy engine mountings accentuated by the"bounce of the DM flywheel. Regards Mike P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike P Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 Dave, If you hadn't sussed mine is the 130 multijet, 6 speed box. Sorry for the omission. Mike P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenewellhome Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 Thanks for your info Mike. :-) ;-) D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted June 5, 2008 Share Posted June 5, 2008 "My conclusion; not 100% the fault of the DM flywheel, more likely effect of sloppy engine mountings accentuated by the"bounce of the DM flywheel. Regards Mike P " If you are not mechanically minded or care to read a very badly worded scroll - stop reading now. Whatever, just use the following to help you understand a bit more of what might be happening with the juddering vans. Food for your thoughts and following may not be accurate, and could be riddled with errors.. You also have to bear in mind it is not just bounce of the flywheel, but the slipping clutch which is built into many DM flywheels. During the max accleration/torque of the crankshaft during the power stroke the DM flywheel should absorb the energy in the torsional springs and realease this energy as the power stroke falls away from max torque. However to avoid violent knocking when the springs bottom out under ectreme circumstances there is a slipping clutch so the 2nd Mass can 'break' away. This prevents damage to the gearbox from literally a rotational hammer effect. Now! When the vehicle is driven forward the engine, under max torque from power stroke rotates on its mounts in a direction that assists with damping the max torque and hammer effect ... the opposite direction from the flywheel. This is results from the flywheel and crankshaft accelerating (lets say clockwise) and the counter acting forces rotate the engine block anti-clockwise. The driven wheels go clockwise and so counter force is also anticlockwise. Energy is al absorbed to release as the power stroke falls away and provides smooth dampening. If we now select reverse gear, we have a differemt dynamic set up, the crank shaft and flywheel acceleration during power stroke make the engine rotate anticlockwise as before, but, and this is the critical bit, the drive to the wheels is reversed and this wants to rotate the engine the opposite way which is clockwise, but there is a small delay due to the compliance in suspension bushes, drive shafts and tyres. So if the timing of the resulting forces is wrong , 1st the engine rocks anticlockwise and suddenly wants to go clockwise and all this gives the Dual mass fly wheel a sudden jolt cmpressing the torsion springs to their limit, the DM clutch slips, or indeed even if there is not one then the available torque to wheels as a rotational hammer impact..... felt as knocking. If the DM flywheel clutch slips, then suddenly we have lost a dampening effect to the power stroke and all sorts of dynamic messy oscillations occur and results in judder. Sudden power stroke torque availablke to wheels and then it drops quickly as the DM clutch stops slipping. But even with just the DM clutch springs and engine block bouncing in differenmt directions cause judder ( you can get the same effect in many cars with the gear box clutch springs interacting with the engine vibrations, especially as they wear and get older) Its well known in the industry with all vehicles reversing DM or not, and if Fiat could cure with replacing engine mounts I am sure they would have by now, altering the DM fly wheel could work, but might result in damaged gearboxes or some other problem like no longer having smooth drive going forward...its a mess, and not easily fixed I suspect as they probbaly have to alter Engine mounts, Flywheel, gear box ratios and suspension mounts, and possibly even the timing of fuel injection. How has this come about you may ask. As engines have developed, the torque available during the power stroke has got higher and higher for clean burn of the fuel. When at low engine speed, the resulting power stroke has an enormous pulse of peak power resulting in very high torque for a very small time and falls away very quickly. When the engine turns faster the torque from combustion lasts over a much larger angle of movement of the crank shaft and is 'softened'. Tie this in with DM flywheels and reversing and there is a heck of a probem to resolve. It is probable this problem has arison because these are all multijet engined vehicles it is happening with, multijet giving a much improved fuel burn at very low idle speeds and much more power stroke peak power. I have not even mentioned yet the effects of the vehicle acceleration backwards which depending on where engine mounts are fitted could add to the problem of the engine rotating clockwise..the wrong way! adding to the judder. I'm off now, and will read this toorrow again and probably cringe as it is so long winded. Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenewellhome Posted June 5, 2008 Share Posted June 5, 2008 An interesting theory Jon and one certainly one plausible explanation. However I'd like to try and keep this thread for responses to the questions I asked if you don't mind. Could theories such as Jon's please be posted in the main thread for this topic? Thanks. I have no objection to this thread being bumped up occasionally to keep it current but I politely request that it be kept for postings relative to the points raised in my first posting. Cheers, D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenewellhome Posted June 5, 2008 Share Posted June 5, 2008 Bump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenewellhome Posted June 8, 2008 Share Posted June 8, 2008 bump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenewellhome Posted June 8, 2008 Share Posted June 8, 2008 Come on now, where have all the X2/50s gone? Have you all traded them in or are you all just away in them for the summer? Or worse still are they all in the garage having clutches and gearboxes replaced? :D D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyishuk Posted June 8, 2008 Share Posted June 8, 2008 Brambles - 2008-06-05 12:46 AM If you are not mechanically minded or care to read a very badly worded scroll - stop reading now. Thanks for the explaination, I have a 03 2.8jtd and it seems wise to jump a generation or two of Sevel based engines before we upgrade. Cost of diesel permitting ! Rgds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenewellhome Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 Wot still no juddering fiats? :-S D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossko Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 Hi Dave Just back from a great weekend in N Yorks with lots of hills & tests. We have a Swift Bolero 680FB with the 130 6 speed gearbox. Wheel size 215 70 15. took delivery May 2007. Noticed judder in reverse on first day when we arrived home & reversed up our slightly inclining drive. It doesn't appear to have got worse in general but is very obvious whenever we reverse up any sort of incline. Setting off in 2nd gear up a steep incline did produce a judder but nothing like when reversing up it & really not that much different from what we would have expected when trying to set off uphill in a heavy vehicle in 2nd gear. Hope this is all the info you need. I wish more people who have joined the lobbying brigade would respond to you. Andy would not be impressed!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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