Oh woe is us

[Poppy]

Thank you Judge.Yes I think so too and in the first instance it was merely for advice.BUT in the event of this going into dispute, obviously the earlier the contact the better.I truly hope all this can be solved aimicably.

[GypsyTom]

JudgeMental - 2010-02-06 12:37 PMYour really need to read what people have said regards this issue properly, and stop misquoting and jumbling up different opinion.contacting trading standards is common sense not hysteria

You're the one who should be reading the posts. It's not just about contacting Trading Standards before you've even given the dealer a chance to phone back and tell you what's happening. It's comments about getting a solicitor, calling in the police, searching the dealer's premises in case he's hiding the 'van around the back.

Do all these things if you must, but only when you've received the dealer's response and it isn't satisfactory.

I'm still waiting for your explanation of this rat that you smell and what advantage the dealer will gain by lying about the fact the he's sold the 'van on.

Come on, tell us all what nefarious scheme he's engaged in here?

The simple truth is there is no rat, there is no dodgy dealing and no dishonesty. Hartleys have been let down by Hobby and will sort it one way or the other. Assuming of course that this tale of no RHD models is even correct!

Edited to say, after reading your post above, please tell me why the dealer is saying that the 'van has gone if it hasn't. What possible advantage is there for him?

If the Hobby isn't available, his easiest way out is to give back the Hymer. If it's been sold on he has a huge problem that will cost him dearly.

Why would he lie about this and why are you convinced that it's not been sold on?  Apart of course from your inbuilt prejudices. Why are you not prepared to give him a chance?

[Rayjsj]

Why is it that perfectly reasonable 'banter' on this forum always seems to turn into a slanging match between people with opposing views ?? and the original poster and THE problem seems to get sidelined in the 'Spat'.

Has Hobby UK & Hobby Germany decided to stop supplying RHD vehicles to our market ??? If they have, then the advert on page 204 of MMM is a breach of Trading standards Law. (do you agree gypsy tom ??).

And IF they have? Poppy and her husband deserve to put back into the same posistion as they were before they walked into the Showroom.

as I said this is just 'banter' and not legally binding...before anyone starts getting red in the face. :D :D Ray

[GypsyTom]

Rayjsj - 2010-02-06 1:10 PMWhy is it that perfectly reasonable 'banter' on this forum always seems to turn into a slanging match between people with opposing views ?? and the original poster and THE problem seems to get sidelined in the 'Spat'. Has Hobby UK & Hobby Germany decided to stop supplying RHD vehicles to our market ??? If they have, then the advert on page 204 of MMM is a breach of Trading standards Law. (do you agree gypsy tom ??). And IF they have? Poppy and her husband deserve to put back into the same posistion as they were before they walked into the Showroom. as I said this is just 'banter' and not legally binding...before anyone starts getting red in the face. :D :D Ray

I thought you may have worked out that my main problem with many posters is that they are damning the dealer and suggesting that Poppy takes certain strong legal actions before the dealer has even been given the chance to sort out this problem.

Reasonable people do not behave like this. Fortunately, Poppy and he husband appear to be reasonable people and I'm sure that they will eventually get satisfaction without the need for lawyers etc. etc.

Regrettably it has not as you claim been just 'reasonable banter'. Judgemental has implied twice that there is something dishonest going on. His posts on this subject are perfect example of damning the dealer before the man has even been given a chance to respond and other posts take a similar line. 

Why can't we just give a Hartleys a chance to respond before assuming that they're a bunch of thieves?

[Guest JudgeMental]

Rayjsj ignore Tom he is a troll and trouble maker, always mudding the water and spreading confusion.This thread was more then reasonable until he stuck his oar in.......

[GypsyTom]

JudgeMental - 2010-02-06 1:54 PMRayjsj ignore Tom he is a troll and trouble maker, always mudding the water and spreading confusion.This thread was more then reasonable until he stuck his oar in.......

Oh dear, just because I disagree with your inflammatory posts I'm a troll! Just for once put your money where you mouth is and tell us how you justify the accusations of dishonesty in that you 'smell a rat' and your claim that the dealer is lying about moving on the Hymer.

You appear to have an antipathy to British dealers. I have an antipathy to people who criticise them without foundation and who appear unwilling to give them a reasonable chance to respond to a problem.

As for trolling, I post here only when I have something to say. It's not often but when it is it's because I want to contribute something, ask something or respond to someone. The truth is that I've challenged your accusative posts and you seem to have no response so you now try to deflect me and result to insults, and not for the first time either.

It's odd that when there is a major spat on this forum you often appear to be in the middle of it!

[Guest JudgeMental]

Again a warning to others..... Do not hand over your vehicle until the exchange.

 

No matter how plausible they are, If the dealer goes bust you have lost everything. and before Tom puts words in my mouth again! I am not saying this is the case here, but it can and does happen!

 

Tom you are of in hairy fairy land again......I simply said that I did not believe the dealer had "traded on" the van, and had probably sold it at a profit. Why else did they ask for it? cash flow? even more troubling, but I don't think this is the case here.

 

I think a punter may have enquired and they may have said Oh we have a nice Hymer van coming in, and asked Poppy for it in advance. and are now withholding this info because of the unforeseen circumstances, and possible cancellation of deal. they will be in a difficult position if they cant fulfil the contract

 

This situation is entirely of the dealers making! lets hope he can fix it to Poppy's satisfaction.

 

 

[rupert123]

I have followed this thread with interest and tend to agree with Tom, the advice went a touch overboard. The ownership of Poppys van must be in doubt, for Hartleys to sell it on they must have ownership. Having the V5 is not proof of ownership, the V5 must be assigned, in this case being sold to a motor trader. If Poppy or whoever owned it did assign ownership then they must hope all goes through ok. As it has been sold the ownership will have been transfered yet again, if it has not then someone is acting in a very strange manner. Personally I know of no motor trader who would buy a vehicle without ownership being transfered. It is not uncommon to let a trader have a vehicle before trade is completed and providing you retain ownership I cannot see a great problem with this.

[Brian Kirby]

GypsyTom - 2010-02-06 12:17 PM

..............

As for why he traded on this one and not others, who cares, it's irrelevant. Possibly some Hymer models are more sought after than others?...................

Since the dealer has been identified, I agree it is unreasonable to continue with this string in its present abusive vein. 

Clearly, you like the dealership, are buying from them, have a relationship with them and, to that extent, are seeking to defend them.  However, that is your loyalty to them which, in this case, I think is somewhat misplaced.

Others will not have your knowledge and, while some of the suggestions made are rather "cloak and dagger" it is quite possible they reflect alternative experiences of other dealers, elsewhere.

To that extent, they are trying to put Poppy on her guard against presently unknown, but foreseeable (by them), risks.  They should not be lambasted for that.

There is an air of indecent haste in the way this van was traded on, which has, understandably, lead people to draw their own conclusions.

Under the circumstances, consulting Trading Standards is just common sense, since it is wise to find out where you stand legally, before talking to the dealer.  That is because some dealers do not give accurate, reliable, or honest, responses to clients under difficult circumstances.  Simple maxim: forewarned is forearmed.

Does it matter that this van was traded on?  Absolutely it does!  The van forms part of a contract for sale against a new van.  That contract is not completed until the new van is delivered.  It now appears the contract has become frustrated by the dealer's inability to perform.  The dealer was wrong to behave as he did, both in taking in the van in advance, and even more so by selling it, before he had the new van available on his premises.  He is supposed to be the "professional": he should know that.

I assume a proper order was signed, and was passed on to Hobby Germany through Hobby UK.  When, is not stated, but the decision to cancel the build of RHD models should have immediately been transmitted back to the dealer and his client.  Unless there is a very unfortunate coincidence of timings, therefore, someone, possibly some people, have been at best very cavalier, and at worst downright incompetent, in their dealings with their client.  I make no allegation as to who/where, but the outcome is a disgrace and could not happen if proper business practise were followed by all parties.

I sincerely hope Poppy either gets back her old van, or gets full and due payment in lieu, but this dealer has not acquitted himself at all well so far, despite your, I am sure honestly held, views as to his status.

[Tony Jones]

GypsyTom - 2010-02-06 12:47 PM

 

It's comments about getting a solicitor, calling in the police, searching the dealer's premises in case he's hiding the 'van around the back.

Do all these things if you must, but only when you've received the dealer's response and it isn't satisfactory

 

Easy does it Tom.

As far as I can see, mine was the only post which mentioned ACTUALLY going to the police (as opposed to telling the dealer that), and I specifically said "IF you're not satisfied with their explanation and offer."

 

No-one wants Poppy to get into an unnecessary fight over this, and not knowing the dealer myself I'm quite happy to accept your testimonial that they're the type who wil ldo the right thing. Hope so, for Poppy's sake.

[rolandrat]

Why would a so called reputable dealer want a motorhome up front before the new one is delivered and PDI'd Gypsy Tom ? I've no intention of getting involved in petty slagging off but something not quite right is going on. How long would it have taken the dealer to contact Hobby UK and get the necessary answers, they are on the end of a phone and I'm sure they could e-mailed as well. Just because a company has been established a long time doesn't mean anything, the best of businesses can get things wrong from time to time. If they are an honourable company then all will be well, there is nothing wrong with giving someone friendly advice.

[jhorsf]

JudgeMental - 2010-02-06 1:54 PM

 

Rayjsj ignore Tom he is a troll and trouble maker, always mudding the water and spreading confusion.This thread was more then reasonable until he stuck his oar in.......

 

 

JudgeMental I do not think Tom was doing anything other than being a voice of reason and trying to help ,your post above however does border on the offensive and worthy of a slap

[flicka]

GypsyTom - 2010-02-06 12:17 PM

 

Finally, firms like Hartleys, trading in areas like Kendal, depend heavily on their reputation among the local folk. It beggars belief that they have done anything illegal. The worst thing that they are guilty of is in trusting Hobby to deliver the motorhome that they

 

Despite GypsyTom's comment, Poppy needs to clarify her Legal position immediately and should inform the dealer she is taking legal advise.

If the Dealer has ordered the Hobby & Hobby have acknowledged receipt of their order, it is up to the dealer to fight his own corner recovering any costs incurred from Hobby. However as stated in earlier posts, his action in disposing of the vehicle invites concerns and adverse statements.

 

Despite the (past) reputation of any business, it is difficult for any individual to determine their current financial status in this current ressession. Checking a Company's credit rating is not a safeguard as generally Accounts submitted are historic and do not reflect the "current" status.

Judgemental's post should be read as actions necessary in this situation to ensure the individual's position is protected as much as possible and would apply irrespective of the dealer's NAME or Country. UK based or otherwise.

[Guest JudgeMental]

jhorsf - 2010-02-06 8:18 PM

 

JudgeMental - 2010-02-06 1:54 PM

 

Rayjsj ignore Tom he is a troll and trouble maker, always mudding the water and spreading confusion.This thread was more then reasonable until he stuck his oar in.......

 

 

JudgeMental I do not think Tom was doing anything other than being a voice of reason and trying to help ,your post above however does border on the offensive and worthy of a slap

 

Rubbish, and don't threaten me hiding behind your keyboard. This was a reasonable discussion until Tom started defending the indefensible..... Thats what trolls do they inflame the situation and discussion.

 

He bundled up all the things said that he did not like and had the audacity to attributed them to me. your quote of mine above is out of context as well as it was in response to his earlier drivel.

 

 

[jhorsf]

It would seem anyone who does not agree with you JudgeMental is verbally abused by you, if you cannot stand a slap on the wrist for being offensive to Tom and take the post in the way it was meant I feel sorry for you

[granddad]

now let me put my penny in why have you lot got to be so insulting to each other be friends as i through motherhomers were

 

give a wave

[jhorsf]

i always hide behind my keyboard :D

[Derek Uzzell]

If Poppy has been unable to get a firm answer from Hartleys regarding delivery of her RHD Siesta motorhome, perhaps forum-members should contact Hymer(UK) themselves ASAP and ask what's going on.

 

Website: www.hobbycaravansuk.co.uk

E-mail: admin1@hobbycaravansuk.co.uk

Tel: 01773 853900

 

This should be a lot more useful than persisting with unhelpful point-scoring.

[GypsyTom]

Derek Uzzell - 2010-02-07 8:34 AMIf Poppy has been unable to get a firm answer from Hartleys regarding delivery of her RHD Siesta motorhome, perhaps forum-members should contact Hymer(UK) themselves ASAP and ask what's going on.Website: www.hobbycaravansuk.co.ukE-mail: admin1@hobbycaravansuk.co.ukTel: 01773 853900This should be a lot more useful than persisting with unhelpful point-scoring.

Yea, brilliant idea. Swamp Hobby UK with phone calls so that it'll be even harder for Hartley's to get an answer to this.

I've got a better idea. Why don't we just leave it for a day and see what Hartley's response is? They will be making every effort to get a definitive response from Hobby as this not only affects one sale but their entire future as a Hobby franchisee. Who's going to want to sell a brand that doesn't have RHD versions?

I suspect that this is probably a  storm in a teacup resulting from some inaccurate information from a junior employee at Hobby UK.

The most reasonable person in this discussion seems to be Poppy herself who, after dealing with Hartley's, knows that they are a genuine company that, if this is true, appear to have been badly let down by its supplier.

 

[weldted]

my two pence worth, when i bought my van new in 2008, Marquis (Devon) offered me a very generous trade in on out old one, the original delivery date was for 01/01/08. But there was a delay with the delivery of the new one, Marquis contacted me to advise me of the situation and asked if they could have a current van as they had had a customer in mind when they gave me the part exchange allowance. i could not do that as we had a trip to Europe planned and need it. If we had not would of let them take it. this would have been our desision and we would of weighed up all the pros and cons of doing it. What this forum does not need is the increasing level of unfair and rude comments. helpfull suggestions should remain at the core of forums like this, we are all aware that there are pitfalls to any transactions, but condeming dealers etc out of had do not help. When something is found to be true and published then that is the information I would think people wish to be advised off. In this case has the dealer given a delivery date for the new van, has that date passed if not what has he done wrong? If his contract of sale to the customer states the expected delivery date and it has not been reached and the customer handed their van over to him as part of the contract he is not in breach of anything. All condemnation of the dealer does is effect his buisness worry the prospective buyers and not help anyone. I had a warranty issue with my van, posted it on here and comments about how bad the deal, manafacture, muppets and monkeys who worked on the van etc (amongst the good advice) did nothing to help my case. I remained calm cutious and polite as did the people i had cause to deal with over this matter and gave everyone time to investigate from their side, true i did contact Trading Standars for advice as to my options (very helpful) and used some other profesional services but in the end a polite conversation with the mans who makes the decisions resulted in the matter being settled very fairly, if I had waited a bit longer before engaging profesionl services I would have save myself money. Give the dealer a chance to rectify this situation and stop the slanging match it helps no one. (my opinion only0

[Derek Uzzell]

GypsyTom - 2010-02-07 9:44 AM

 

Yea, brilliant idea. Swamp Hobby UK with phone calls so that it'll be even harder for Hartley's to get an answer to this?

 

Anyone with an atom of experience of internet forums will be well aware that the ratio of reaction to proaction and rant to research is monumentally high, so the chances are minimal that Hobby(UK) would be 'swamped' with enquiries.

 

I've now spoken to a UK Hobby agent about this.

 

He confirmed that, currently, it would be impossible to ORDER a new 2010-model Hobby (LHD or RHD) as the order-book is closed for the 2010 model-year (which runs roughly October 2009 through September 2010). Anybody ORDERING a Hobby now, would be ordering a 2011-model and should not expect to take delivery before October 2010.

 

He had a number of RHD 2010-model Hobby motorhomes on order and awaiting delivery to him, and he knew that some of them had been built as he'd seen them when he'd recently visited the Hobby factory. He had heard nothing about problems regarding supply of the remaining vehicles and, as he was in close contact with Hobby(UK) and the German factory, he would have anticipated being told immediately if there were production/supply difficulties.

 

I mentioned the possibility that (if there were any truth regarding cessation of RHD Hobby 2010 production) it might just be Transit-based Hobbys that were involved. He agreed that, with the revised Transit imminent, Ford chassis might now be in short supply, but that was just a guess. He was also an agent for the CI motorhome brand (that contains many Ford-based models) and there'd be no suspicion of production/supply problems relating to Transit-chassis CI vehicles.

 

He felt (as do I) that there may have been a misunderstanding when Poppy's husband spoke to Hobby(UK), but he intended to touch base with Hobby(UK) tomorrow just to be sure.

 

[GypsyTom]

Derek Uzzell - 2010-02-07 12:13 PM

GypsyTom - 2010-02-07 9:44 AMYea, brilliant idea. Swamp Hobby UK with phone calls so that it'll be even harder for Hartley's to get an answer to this?

Anyone with an atom of experience of internet forums will be well aware that the ratio of reaction to proaction and rant to research is monumentally high, so the chances are minimal that Hobby(UK) would be 'swamped' with enquiries.  

Yes, and anyone with an atom of common sense would realise that this was a foolish knee-jerk reaction to this problem. 'Swamped' is a relative term and you have no idea whatsoever exactly how many people would have taken you up on this and phoned Hobby just for the hell of it. I can think of a few immediately! 

Presumably, having now ascertained the true situation you are no longer advocating that people tie up Hobby UK's switchboard enquiring about a problem that has never directly concerned them?

[Rayjsj]

Gypsy Tom,

You are like a dog with a bone, Forums are ALL about people giving THEIR opinions about the various problems that crop up. Usually that means that folk do so freely and everyone gets enlightened and sometimes entertained, with You it is all about personal animosity to anyone who doesn't happen to agree with you. I will avoid any thread that you get involved with in future, as it will almost certainly descend into useless argument. Bye Bye ! *-)

 

ps you don't own a lurcher and Tarmac drives do you ? he he.

pps Derek, Thankyou for the useful information. Ray

[Guest JudgeMental]

Yes thanks Derek! for throwing some light on the situation and your consistant decency. All being well Poppy should be OK presuming her order has been in for a while........

 

Am I alone in thinking I cant imagaine anyone on here wanting to call Hobby re this subject......The mind boggles *-)

[lennyhb]

JudgeMental - 2010-02-06 2:51 PM

 

Again a warning to others..... Do not hand over your vehicle until the exchange.

 

No matter how plausible they are, If the dealer goes bust you have lost everything. and before Tom puts words in my mouth again! I am not saying this is the case here, but it can and does happen!

 

Tom you are of in hairy fairy land again......I simply said that I did not believe the dealer had "traded on" the van, and had probably sold it at a profit. Why else did they ask for it? cash flow? even more troubling, but I don't think this is the case here.

 

I think a punter may have enquired and they may have said Oh we have a nice Hymer van coming in, and asked Poppy for it in advance. and are now withholding this info because of the unforeseen circumstances, and possible cancellation of deal. they will be in a difficult position if they cant fulfil the contract

 

This situation is entirely of the dealers making! lets hope he can fix it to Poppy's satisfaction.

 

 

I have agree 100% with Eddie on this one, the dealer would have only asked for the van early if he aready had a buyer lined up.

 

The problem poppy has is she has parted with her van & received nothing in return if the dealer continues to trade normally an amicable arrangement can probably be sorted out regardless of the Hobby situation but what if something happens to the dealer in the mean time.

 

To quote an instant of what happened to a friend of mine about 3 years ago. He was buying a partly fitted out new VW to finish the conversion himself from a trusted dealer he had brought previous vans from.

He transferred 20 grand to the dealers account on Monday and was going to pick up the van on Friday, between the Monday & Friday the dealer went into liquidation. Not only did he loose 20k to add insult to injury a few weeks later the liquidator offered to sell him the van he had already paid for for 15k.

 

This emphasizes the point never ever part with you cash or van up front even if it is only a couple of days.