ABS ASR ETC

[trooper]

I have checked my 2 motors and my nearly3 year old fiat M/H and all have asr or whatever the individual makers call it.As people who are up to date know this prevents the back of the vehicle sliding out in anywhere near Average conditions. This means that a M/H would no doubt turn over, due to the high centre of gravity before the rear slid out, SEE JAGUAR ABS ASR ON THE INTERNET, tiff needell found at 70, yes 70 mph on ice and snow the car stayed totally in control , so in anywhere near normal driving, which tyres are fitted where is irrelevant. It doesn't mean one can drive like an idiot and expect the car or M/H to go where you want, I believe this is now compulsory on some commercial vehicles and is to be soon on cars.

This will be very good for all of us but I have wondered what will happen if one has a tyre blowout, I have not seen an independent test for this yet.

[davenewellhome]

Is this on a Toyota by any chance? :D :D

 

D.

[Guest Tracker]

Can't be on a Toyota otherwise it would have worked properly!

[Clive]

I think that during an aquaplane that a motorhome will behave like a double decker buss - and slide out!

[Archiesgrandad]

Hang on a minute, ABS is a system that works with the brakes, and when it senses that one of the wheels has locked it briefly releases the brake on that wheel to allow the tyre to regain it's grip, and help to maintain control. It doesn't work if you lock all four wheels, say on sheet ice, because it has to sense a difference in the speed at which each of the wheels is turning.

The other systems, ASR-ESP-ESC etc., are traction control devices, that turm down the power from the engine if your driven wheels start to spin, and can help to give a little more traction on slippery surfaces. Some of the more sophisticated devices also use a bit of the ABS system to actually apply a bit of braking to a particular wheel to achieve this effect.

Neither is intended to prevent or cause a vehicle to slide sideways, and if something does apply such a force that would cause a vehicle to slide sideways, these systems wouldn't make much difference, and provided that the vehicle doesn't trip over a curb stone or similar, it won't tip over.

These systems do help to make driving a little easier and safer, but the really important bit is the nut that holds the steering wheel!

AGD

[trooper]

HI Archies grandad, I think you had better do a little more home work,The major car manufacturers say that only 1 per cent of drivers understand how these systems work.

As I have said check on the Internet in various places,one is jag ESP ABS,

You will see that by controlling all control systems, including Yar and steering wheel angle the systems prevent the rear sliding out,

But please don't believe me as others don't, just check with the real experts.

Just a notr, my main love is driving(sad) so i take interest in all latest developments in vehicle design,

Regards,

[Guest Tracker]

You don't have to know how it works to benefit from it!

[colin]

trooper - 2010-02-13 7:36 PM

 

HI Archies grandad, I think you had better do a little more home work,The major car manufacturers say that only 1 per cent of drivers understand how these systems work.

 

After reading your first post I would suggest thats is you that needs to do a little more homework, as you clearly don't understand the dynamics of van handling.

[derek500]

I've got ASR but never used it. When should it be switched on?

[Archiesgrandad]

Thank you Trooper, as you say there are probably less than 1% of us who understand these sophisticated systems, and in all my years as a senior industrial engineer with a major motor maufacturer, I observed this was a Huge problem. Even owning a fleet of big Jaguar saloons hasn't given me any confidence that I understood everything about these systems, but I do know that they were not in anyway connected to the steering mechanism, and so could not help to rectify a skid. They are pretty sophisticated, and they use inputs from all sorts of different bits of the cars, but their purpose is to help you to keep the tyres firmly in contact with the road and providing traction or grip, so they are fundamentally intended to stop the wheels locking under braking, ABS, and to prevent the driven wheels from spinning, which is generally achieved by reducing the power of the engine momentarily, and in some more exotic systems by using aspects of the ABS system to stop an individual wheel from spinning, in order that a little more power can be applied, for example to enable you to drive up a slippery hill.

These systems are intended to make it much harder to make a stupid mistake and send your vehicle off into a slide or skid, they're not magic and if you are really daft you can defeat them. We wouldn't do anything like that would we, and we all realise that the Tiff Needells of this world are trying to do things that will look good on TV. Life is what we do, TV is entertainment and we should not confuse the two.

If the nut holding the steering wheel is good enough they will not need these systems, so practice and aspire, like I do.

AGD

[Keithl]

Hi Derek,

 

ASR works alongside ABS to prevent wheelspin and loss of traction and is 'Always On'.

On a Fiat you can switch it off using the ESP button.

 

If you want to find out more then try Googling 'Fiat ASR'.

 

Keith.

 

Edit, Just read another article and the ESP button may not always turn ASR off. I think the old adage RTFM (read the..... manual) may explain more>

[Archiesgrandad]

Hi Dereck500,

Your ASR should be on all the time, you probably won't notice anything, but it will improve the traction on slippery surfaces, just a bit.

Some systems tell you to switch it off if you use snow chains, so you should check the handbook.

AGD

[trooper]

Hi colin, Obviously you are the expert at driving as I only have 50 years experiance driving all types from M/cycles, vans, hgvs, 4x4, racing cars and on skid pans, but I will admit I am still learning as much as I can about road vehicle technoligy, I have nothing else to do.

As I have said this tec is in adition to driving safe, as all motorcyclists are taught, not instead of.

I think tracker is right, who cares how it works(except me) as long as it does. :-)

[Guest Tracker]

trooper - 2010-02-14 3:41 PM

I think tracker is right, who cares how it works(except me) as long as it does. :-)

 

Not quite - you don't need to know how it works to benefit from it is not quite the same as not caring how it works!

 

It is interesting technology and very far removed from the rod brakes non servo of course, non power steering, no heater, side valve engines, separate chassis, non synchro gearbox, cart sprung, dynamo generator (with Lucas regulator - remember those cussed things!) unreliable but tough and repairable cars of my youth!

 

The miracle is not that technology fails on remarkably rare occasions but that it works so well 99.99% of the time!

 

Not so much the good old days - more we've never had it so good!

[Rosbotham]

Archiesgrandad - 2010-02-13 9:12 PM

 

Even owning a fleet of big Jaguar saloons hasn't given me any confidence that I understood everything about these systems, but I do know that they were not in anyway connected to the steering mechanism, and so could not help to rectify a skid.

AGD

 

Wouldn't get into whether they'd rectify skids, but categorically they are linked to the steering...at least in the context of the direction of the steering wheel being one of the input sensors. They compare the direction of the steering wheel with the actual movement of the road wheels to determine if traction is being lost hence whether to start working their magic with controlling the power.

 

I came across this when I had to have the steering column replaced on a Smart I used to own. It required a visit to a Smart dealer to have the ESP sensors recalibrated because if the steering wheel's taken off, it disturbs the sensor, the ESP doesn't know where it is so powers down as it believes the car's constantly skidding.

[colin]

trooper - 2010-02-14 3:41 PM

 

Hi colin, Obviously you are the expert at driving

 

I have made no claims to be an expert at driving, why would I want to put myself on that pedlestal just to get knocked off ;-)

[Stuart]

Tracker - 2010-02-14 4:31 PM

 

trooper - 2010-02-14 3:41 PM

I think tracker is right, who cares how it works(except me) as long as it does. :-)

 

It is interesting technology and very far removed from the rod brakes non servo of course, non power steering, no heater, side valve engines, separate chassis, non synchro gearbox, cart sprung, dynamo generator (with Lucas regulator - remember those cussed things!) unreliable but tough and repairable cars of my youth!

!

 

You forgot to mention the magneto and manual screen wiper arm

 

Stuart

[Mike Chapman]

trooper - 2010-02-10 7:11 PM

 

This means that a M/H would no doubt turn over, due to the high centre of gravity before the rear slid out, SEE JAGUAR ABS ASR ON THE INTERNET, tiff needell found at 70, yes 70 mph on ice and snow the car stayed totally in control , so in anywhere near normal driving, which tyres are fitted where is irrelevant. It doesn't mean one can drive like an idiot and expect the car or M/H to go where you want, I believe this is now compulsory on some commercial vehicles and is to be soon on cars.

This will be very good for all of us but I have wondered what will happen if one has a tyre blowout, I have not seen an independent test for this yet.

 

Hello Trooper,

 

I see the point that you are making but your comment about "Which tyres are fitted where is irrelevant." is not correct. It is an essential on most vehicles fitted with Stability Control such as ESP and ASR that matched tyres and in most cases similar tread depths are fitted and certainly this is the case with my Saab ( Saab Technical Advice about fitting mixed make tyres). Also with four wheel drive, matched tyres should be used. Refer to the problems with Jeep Cherokee winding up and damaging their transmission when fitted with unmatched tyres.

 

I do not have detailed knowledge of how these Active Safety Systems actually work but it sems logical that mixed tyre tread patterns or wear would send different signals from the sensors to the control unit.

 

These systems predict instability and make almost instananeous corrections in an attempt to keep the vehicle stable on the road. All have a critical point where the action of the driver or road conditions (eg., Black Ice) can defeat the system and the tyre grip, possibly leading to an incident.

 

The problem with having vehicles with these systems is that it can lull a driver into a sense of false confidence where, they are largely detached from what is happening and believe that the vehicle can always compensate. There is a lot to be said for the old vehicles that needed skilled driving where drivers learned to feel the vehicle through the steering and the seat of his or her pants.

 

Regards,

 

Mike.

 

[trooper]

HI Mick, we are both on the same wavelength. Owning 4x4s for over25years I have always changed the whole set together,

on old land rovers with no central diff they would wind up always on non slippery surfaces, and also I knew that various manufacturers say that always use the correct size tyres where safety aids are fitted, it even mentions this in my Smart manual. it was only really a thought that how many times a correctly driven M/H has a rear slide one is likely to make use of the extra traction on the front on, hills wet roads sites etc. I have never had the rear slide out but I have had lack of traction on very steep hills, in fact in Spain I had to reverse back a few times in one instance in a village to get to the top of the hill .

I agree about drivers, unfortunately there are drivers and people who drive.

All the best